Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Camera Raw Q&A => Topic started by: Raw shooter on April 13, 2011, 02:16:20 pm

Title: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on April 13, 2011, 02:16:20 pm
The default Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (CS5) of 'Adobe Standard' has a considerable magenta shift. I didn't notice this with the defaults in ACR 5.x (CS4). 
Now that I am aware of this change, I have used the 'Camera Standard' with very good results.  I have also created a Custom Camera Profile for my camera and flash using DNG Profile Editor with excellent results.  My Custom Profile and the Camera Standard Profile are quite close - although both are vastly superior to the Adobe Standard - which is just plain inaccurate.

After seeing the noticable problem with the Adobe Standard Profile, I am now wondering how this somehow became the ACR 6.x default. I am also having a hard time finding any information on this issue from Adobe or anywhere else.
Anyone having info on this issue would be helpful.  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: digitaldog on April 13, 2011, 02:51:52 pm
The profiles affect different cameras differently (of the same model) otherwise wed not need to roll our own. Its possible many users are quite happy with the defaults. That is, if their camera behaves much like the camera(s) Adobe used to build that profile, they will get good results.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on April 13, 2011, 05:59:11 pm
Thanks Digital Dog.  I have a Nikon D300 and a Canon 60D and I am having the same problem with both using the Adobe Standard Camera Profile.
I can even open some old image in ACR that have the Camera Profile of 4.4 or 4.3 - and they look great.  Now if I change the profile to Adobe Standard, the color shift (quite a magenta shift) happens like the current pictures.
I do portraits and images of known shade patches, that are standardized. Complete color managed workflow, custom White Balances monthly. My main monitor is a 30 inch IPS panel and main printer is an Epson 4880. Eye One Display 2 and custom print profiles or canned Epson paper profiles.  Everything points to the Adobe Standard Camera Profile that has become the default in ACR, verson CS5 (6.x)

This is perhaps a problem to just my cameras or there is a problem with the Adobe Standard in ACD 6.x. 

I am going back through almost a years worth of shoots (since updating to Photoshop CS5) and changing the camera profile to either the camera standard or my Custom Camera Profile (DNG Profile editor) with fantastic results.  Results that look right on.
Of course, the Custom Profile is remarkable - especially in the shadows and saturation of midtones.  I feel kind of silly for not looking closely earlier.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: talninio on April 14, 2011, 08:13:37 am
We struggled with camera profiles too.
We found out that using other camera profiles creates very interesting results.
You are welcome to learn about Cross Camera Color DNG profiles.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on April 14, 2011, 10:57:16 am
I had a D200 and now a D700 and the Adobe Standard profile just is not correct for either camera.  I am using the Camera Neutral with some modifications to contrast and saturation.  I also have custom profiles generated using the DNG Profile Editor and X-Rite ColorChecker Passport software.  I started doing this when the DNG Profile Editor was first released.  I don't understand why Adobe can't get it right.  
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: bjanes on April 18, 2011, 09:35:17 am
The profiles affect different cameras differently (of the same model) otherwise wed not need to roll our own. Its possible many users are quite happy with the defaults. That is, if their camera behaves much like the camera(s) Adobe used to build that profile, they will get good results.

If the camera used by Adobe to construct the Adobe Standard profile is different from the OP's camera in its color response, then I would expect the Camera Standard profile created by Adobe using the same camera to also be affected, but the OP seems to be getting good results from that profile with his presumably different camera. Does this make sense?

Regards,

Bill Janes
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: digitaldog on April 18, 2011, 11:22:49 am
Perhaps Eric will see this an chime in. My understanding is, some of these camera matching profiles (at least for Nikon) are a bit different from the other DNG Profiles in terms of mapping white point which might be the reason for this.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: madmanchan on April 18, 2011, 05:58:23 pm
Andrew, the main issue we have is that one person's "right" is another person's "wrong". This is one of the reasons why we provide multiple profiles, and tools for users to make/edit their own profiles. Most of our "Camera Matching" profiles that we provide are actually less accurate in my personal testing, but many users like them. For a specific example: Some users prefer stronger tone curves (e.g., for Canon, Camera Standard, Landscape, Portrait) and other users prefer gentler tone curves (e.g., for Canon, Camera Neutral, Faithful). For Adobe Standard (1 profile), there is just 1 tone curve, so it can't be both strong and gentle at the same time. We chose to make it on the stronger side (more contrasty), but this doesn't appeal to folks who prefer a gentler curve.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on April 19, 2011, 01:24:46 pm
Eric, The problem wasn't a tone curve or personal taste issue.  It was a noticeable color miss by the Adobe Standard.  I do think Andrew was on to something on the White Balance issue with the Nikons.  The magenta shift (considerable) is in place after a careful Custom White Balance in ACR - if the Adobe Standard Camera profile is used, as is the default with ACR 6.x. 
The camera is a Nikon D300. Nikon R1C1 flash is the lighting source (100%). Total of 6 R200 flash units in studio.  Xrite White Balance Card for CWB in ACR.
 
The fix was a Custom Camera Profile, created using a Xrite ColorChecker in DNG Profile Editor (perfect color using this profile in ACR)
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: stamper on April 20, 2011, 03:52:44 am
I would suggest that the flash is PROBABLY the problem. I have a d300 and a d700 and use the Adobe Standard profile without any magenta cast. This also applies to the latest beta profiles supplied by Adobe. 8)
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: madmanchan on April 20, 2011, 10:11:02 am
Understood. It is possible your particular D300 unit differs significantly from the unit that Adobe used to build its profile. (This is a guess. I cannot prove this, of course, without measuring your particular unit.)
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: stamper on April 20, 2011, 10:38:25 am
Would the camera profile make a difference? If in camera it is sRGB and the pro-filer used Adobe RGB would that cause a cast?
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: sniper on April 20, 2011, 04:12:11 pm
I used to have a d300 and never had any issues, with or without studio flash (different make I admit)  You can dial in colour correction in camera, yours hasn't got anything set by accident has it?
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on April 20, 2011, 05:17:37 pm
I used to have a d300 and never had any issues, with or without studio flash (different make I admit)  You can dial in colour correction in camera, yours hasn't got anything set by accident has it?
I shoot Raw only - camera settings don't make any difference here.  Color in ACR, with raw files, is Custom White Balance and Camera Profile.  This should be neutral on color with all Camera Profiles.  The difference between other Camera Profiles is a bit difference with tones (contrast and White & Black points).  The different tones is determined by personal preference - although they all should be base neutral.
The Adobe Standard Camera Profile is the issue in my case.  My only problem is that the Adobe Standard is the default and problematic with my camera. This was a major change from Camera Raw in CS4 to Camera Raw in CS5.  I do wonder about Lightroom too, although I don't use it.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: sniper on April 21, 2011, 04:04:10 am
I'm not sure the colour correction is ignored by raw (I haven't still got the camera to check now) I'm not talking about the profiles but the colour tuning to shift the "base" hue colour, with Canons (which I now use mostly) the changes are seen by raw, that I do know because one of mine had a cast from new that had to be "tuned out" and I shoot raw.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: JRSmit on April 21, 2011, 08:19:12 am
I'm not sure the colour correction is ignored by raw (I haven't still got the camera to check now) I'm not talking about the profiles but the colour tuning to shift the "base" hue colour, with Canons (which I now use mostly) the changes are seen by raw, that I do know because one of mine had a cast from new that had to be "tuned out" and I shoot raw.
I started a thread on this one some time last year, the short version: no none of your color, contrast, profile etc settings on your camera impacts the raw data in a raw file. These settings only impacts the jpeg preview that is included in the raw file. I tested this with my Nikon D700, and from other posts in that thread i conclude that this is also true for other camera brands. Note that the raw processing application that comes with the camera (in my case nx2) may not give you proof of this. In my test i used Lightroom to process the raws and color mechanic to extract the jpg preview images.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: eliedinur on April 21, 2011, 10:32:41 am
I'm not sure the colour correction is ignored by raw (I haven't still got the camera to check now) I'm not talking about the profiles but the colour tuning to shift the "base" hue colour, with Canons (which I now use mostly) the changes are seen by raw, that I do know because one of mine had a cast from new that had to be "tuned out" and I shoot raw.

A RAW file is not a color image file (it is at best a grey-scale image), ergo it can not have either a color cast or a '"base" hue color'. Any in-camera tuning affects the maker's converter, not the RAW data.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Peter_DL on April 21, 2011, 04:09:24 pm
The Adobe Standard Camera Profile is the issue in my case.
... This was a major change from Camera Raw in CS4 to Camera Raw in CS5. 

So something must have changed, when changing from ACR 5.x to 6.x:
the Adobe Standard Profile, or the processing through the respective ACR version.

I can't answer the question,
but it seems to be ignored by those who try.

Peter

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Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on April 21, 2011, 04:32:55 pm
So something must have changed, when changing from ACR 5.x to 6.x:
the Adobe Standard Profile, or the processing through the respective ACR version.

I can't answer the question,
but it seems to be ignored by those who try.

Peter

--

Yes, Peter the change from ACR 5 to ACR 6 is the Camera Profile 'Default'
With ACR 5 (CS4), the Camera Profile default was ACR 4.4.
When that upgraded to ACR 6 (CS5), the default became Adobe Standard.  That was the change and the problem with my pictures since upgrading to CS5.

I do believe that Andrew and Eric both chimed in with their opinions (People/ members on LL who know).  Andrew thought there was a 'White Balance' issue with Nikons using the Adobe Standard, and Eric thought is was just a 'personal taste' between users.  I am in agreement with Andrew on this issue.

In my case, I just need to go back though all my shoots since May 2010 and change the Camera Profile away from Adobe Standard.  Besides a bit of work, nothing loss. One of the great benefits from raw file capture. 
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: sniper on April 21, 2011, 07:35:05 pm
It works for me anyway!
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Peter_DL on April 23, 2011, 05:39:02 am
Yes, Peter the change from ACR 5 to ACR 6 is the Camera Profile 'Default'.  
With ACR 5 (CS4), the Camera Profile default was ACR 4.4.
When that upgraded to ACR 6 (CS5), the default became Adobe Standard.  That was the change and the problem with my pictures since upgrading to CS5.

Sorry - got off the track with my reply here.

Peter

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Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on April 24, 2011, 12:13:30 pm
I had not checked Adobe Standard versus ACR4.x profiles, but I see a major difference between these profiles for my D200 and D700.  Photoshop CS5 has ACR4.4 and ACR3.3 for the D200 and ACR4.6 for the D700.  The ACR4.x and ACR3.3 profiles color balance is much closer to the Camera Profiles than Adobe Standard.  I have a custom profile for the D200 that is close to the in camera profile and for the D700 I use an adjusted Camera Netural or Camera D2x Mode 2 profile with modification to contrast and/or saturation that I did using Adobe DNG profile Editor.  I get very close agreement with in camera modification to the same  Picture Contrtol profiles for the D700.  I modified the contrast by using a custom tone curve in the DNG profile Editor and modified saturation by adjusting the Primary Red, Green, and Blue saturation by the same amount. 
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: stamper on April 25, 2011, 03:57:56 am
I didn't know that Adobe made ACR profiles to suit different cameras?

>but I see a major difference between these profiles for my D200 and D700.  Photoshop CS5 has ACR4.4 and ACR3.3 >for the D200 and ACR4.6 for the D700.

I think you are approaching this from the wrong direction. The profiles are a "suggestion" from Adobe which you may want to choose, or not. If you make your own then you do so to suit your own taste and trying to match them to the camera maker and/or Adobe is possibly futile and a waste of time? You don't seem to be using the latest ACR 6.4 0.121. Any way you can't expect the profile for the D200 and the D700 to be the same? Perhaps Jeff or Eric can answer this better than myself because you seem to be causing confusion with your post. :)

Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on April 25, 2011, 04:28:40 pm
I had not checked Adobe Standard versus ACR4.x profiles, but I see a major difference between these profiles for my D200 and D700.  Photoshop CS5 has ACR4.4 and ACR3.3 for the D200 and ACR4.6 for the D700.  The ACR4.x and ACR3.3 profiles color balance is much closer to the Camera Profiles than Adobe Standard.  I have a custom profile for the D200 that is close to the in camera profile and for the D700 I use an adjusted Camera Netural or Camera D2x Mode 2 profile with modification to contrast and/or saturation that I did using Adobe DNG profile Editor.  I get very close agreement with in camera modification to the same  Picture Contrtol profiles for the D700.  I modified the contrast by using a custom tone curve in the DNG profile Editor and modified saturation by adjusting the Primary Red, Green, and Blue saturation by the same amount. 
b2martin, you have found the exact same result as I did.  The Adobe Standard is way different than either the Camera Standard or a Custom Camera Profile.  Interesting that you found this with 2 different cameras.
If color accuracy is your starting point goal, then the Custom Camera Profile is best with the Camera Standard being very close.  Both are good. 

The Adobe Standard is a poor starting point in this scenario - if color accuracy is most important.

Others in this thread are simply using Camera Profiles as a starting point in artistic interpretation of their pictures.  That's a whole different subject - and in that case, all the Camera Profiles are equally good.  Attempting to be color accurate and creating art are just different workflows.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on April 25, 2011, 06:15:18 pm
Stamper, I don't understand your post.  Profiles available from Adobe for ACR were named ACR3.x, ACR4.x, etc. before they renamed the profiles to Adobe Standard.  I don't remember which version of Photoshop first included Adobe Standard profiles, but it also included the ACR3.x and ACR4.x profiles.  All of these profiles are camera specific.  Adobe also released Camera Profiles for Nikon, Canon, and some others that give results very close to profiles used in the camera to generate JPG images.  I have less problems with white balance values if the profile I use gives results in line with profiles that are available in the camera.  Nikon calls their profiles Picture Control starting with the D300, and Adobe generated profiles that give result very close to these, which are the ones I am using.  Nikon also allows you to modify these in their image processing software and in the camera.  I am doing the same with ACR Camera profiles Adobe generated using the DNG Profile Editor and get very close agreement to the in camera profilbe modified in the camera.   
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: stamper on April 26, 2011, 04:54:35 am
Leaving aside the fact that Adobe has specific profiles for different cameras - which I haven't located - I think you are chasing your tail on this issue. I - and better people than me - don't believe there are accurate colours. How do you even know the MacBeth colour chart is accurate? I have read - it is contentious - that colour doesn't exist in the real world. The real world is black and white with grey in between and colour is invented by our brains. If this is true then accurate colour definitely doesn't exist. Different camera manufacturers render colour differently. A camera makes an exposure based on luminosity - blacks greys and whites - and then adds the colour after the exposure has been captured. So which camera manufacturer - or more accurately sensor manufacturer - has an accurate colour? Comparing different profiles and trying to match them will cause frustration - it does to you - and I believe you won't be better off in the long run. Personally I try  - as you point out - for artistic colours that are pleasing. In the Professional world some business people demand accurate colours but if you arent doing business with them then why bother. Even if you get an accurate profile surely then any further work in Photoshop using curves, or what ever, will the skew the colours in another direction and all accuracy has gone? :-\  
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on April 26, 2011, 09:45:35 am
Camera profiles that you can select in the RAW converter are all specific for the camera that shot the picture.  If you want to see all the camera profiles you will have to open the folder where the profiles are located and they are identified by camera type.  Custom profiles that you create are located in a different folder. 

I agree that accurate color is difficult and is probably only required in product photography.  Pleasing color is what I want and I believe that is what most camera manufacturers use as their goal of profiles.  I believe their white balance algorithms and presets are optimized for their profiles, so if you use a profile that gives different color results it takes more time to get the color acceptable when processing the RAW file, this is why I am after a profile that gives equivalent results to the camera profiles. 
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 26, 2011, 10:39:29 am
I have read - it is contentious - that colour doesn't exist in the real world. The real world is black and white with grey in between and colour is invented by our brains. If this is true then accurate colour definitely doesn't exist.

This forum does not really exist.  You are the only member and all of the other posts are constructions of your imagination.  Now, that you have read the previous sentence, it is so.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: digitaldog on April 26, 2011, 10:59:53 am
This forum does not really exist.  You are the only member and all of the other posts are constructions of your imagination.  Now, that you have read the previous sentence, it is so.

We are all in the Matrix!

Actually what stamper says is true in that color is a perceptual property.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Bryan Conner on April 27, 2011, 01:39:01 am
We are all in the Matrix!

Actually what stamper says is true in that color is a perceptual property.

I definitely know that color is a perceptual property, just ask my wife- she will verify that my color perception is a bit "cattywompus" as evidenced by my clothing choices.   ::)

And so everyone knows, I was only making a joke meant only in fun towards Stamper.  I just know that if I start thinking about color perception and such...wondering "is the color that I see when I look at the sky today the same color as the one the person standing next to me is seeing?", I will end up with my forehead wrinkled and my head tilted to one side looking like a dog hearing something strange.    :)
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on May 22, 2011, 08:58:08 am
Eric taught me a trick to map a different profile and to make a custom profile. For example I also believe the 'Adobe Standard' profiles are horribly over magenta, especially in the skin tones. I prefer the older 3.X profiles but there isn't one for example for newer cameras. What I can do is map the old profile from a different camera onto the new camera (with no native old profile) using the DNG profile editor. I love this ability, it's all about choice!
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Kiwigrest on May 27, 2011, 07:01:13 am
Eric taught me a trick to map a different profile and to make a custom profile. For example I also believe the 'Adobe Standard' profiles are horribly over magenta, especially in the skin tones. I prefer the older 3.X profiles but there isn't one for example for newer cameras. What I can do is map the old profile from a different camera onto the new camera (with no native old profile) using the DNG profile editor. I love this ability, it's all about choice!

Hi Ben,

Would you mind elaborating on the 'how-to' procedure for that, if it's not too complicated and cumbersome? -- that would be really helpful!

I'm just getting myself up to speed on this whole thing @ http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Peter_DL on May 28, 2011, 11:42:06 am
I prefer the older 3.X profiles but there isn't one for example for newer cameras.
What I can do is map the old profile from a different camera onto the new camera (with no native old profile) using the DNG profile editor.

It is there, but it is hidden.
No need for exchanging the look between different cameras / profiles.
To access the Baseline Matrix profile for your camera, one option is:

/> with the DNG Profile editor, to run the Chart Wizard on any suitable shot of the ColorChecker.
/> Edit: Clear All Adjustments
/> Export Profile
Done.

Peter

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Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on September 02, 2011, 11:15:28 am
Peter, I tried what you suggested and I do like the profile that resulted. 

I opened a D700 image of the colorchecker taken in direct sunlight with Camera Standard selected as the profile.  Selected the Chart Tab, aligned the four corner markers and clicked to create color table, which takes you to the color tables tab.  I then clicked on Edit and clicked to clear all adjustments.  I then saved the profile. 

This profile gives different results than any of the other profiles I have.  What defines the characteristics of this profile?
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Peter_DL on September 02, 2011, 12:49:51 pm
Peter, I tried what you suggested and I do like the profile that resulted...

This profile gives different results than any of the other profiles I have.  What defines the characteristics of this profile?

The Baseline matrix profile is supposed to deliver a best-fit matrix space
(across all colors, however, only Adobe will know how it is precisely calculated) for the camera unit which was characterized by Adobe.
The other profiles such as Adobe Standard or the Camera Matching profiles just set their tweaks on the top in order to deliver what is expected to be a (more) pleasing rendition. This can work, or not, as far as I can tell.

Another way to access the Baseline matrix with newer cameras is to delete all these profiles. The Raw file will then open with the hidden Matrix profile (provided that the camera is already supported by the respective ACR version).

Peter

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Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on September 02, 2011, 01:27:30 pm
Peter, thanks for the feedback. 

If I understand correctly, the Baseline Matrix Profile that results is not a function of the profile that was listed in the "Color Table" tab when you open the DNG image. 

I did this for a D200, and the profile looks great. 

I don't understand why Adobe does not publish this characteristic. 
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Peter_DL on September 02, 2011, 02:21:08 pm
If I understand correctly, the Baseline Matrix Profile that results is not a function of the profile that was listed in the "Color Table" tab when you open the DNG image.

It is probably just the terminology which can be confusing.

Lets say we start with the Adobe Standard profile or any Camera Matching profile as indicated in the Color Table > Base Profile. Then run the Chart Wizard.  The Color Table > Base Profile now changes to an entry saying "ColorChecker". That is the Baseline Matrix profile. Upon running the Chart Wizard any "Look table" of the Adobe Standard profile or a Camera Matching profile are stripped off, and the unit corrections for your camera as derived by the Chart Wizard - are set on top of the Baseline Matrix profile (which always was inherently present with the starting profiles).  Now, if we Clear Color Adjustments (if we want so), we are back with the Baseline Matrix profile.

Peter

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Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on September 02, 2011, 04:34:46 pm
Peter, this is a little different that your earlier post.  In the earlier post you said "Clear all Adjustments" and in this one "Clear Color Adjustments". 

I generated the profile by clicking "Clear all Adjustments".  I ran the DNG Profile Editor twice, the first one had "Camera Standard" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected  "Chart" tab, and the second one had "Camera Neutral" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected "Chart" Tab.  I closed the DNG Profile Editor between these two runs because I found that even though I selected Camera Neutral for the second pass and then "Chart" tab that the two profiles were identical.  If I selected the profile in the "Color Tables" tab before the "Chart" tab is selected, the profiles are different - they have the tone and saturation characteristics of the profile I selected in the "Color Tables" tab. 

Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Peter_DL on September 02, 2011, 05:20:58 pm
In the earlier post you said "Clear all Adjustments" and in this one "Clear Color Adjustments".  

I generated the profile by clicking "Clear all Adjustments".  I ran the DNG Profile Editor twice, the first one had "Camera Standard" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected  "Chart" tab, and the second one had "Camera Neutral" selected in the "Color Tables" tab before I selected "Chart" Tab.  I closed the DNG Profile Editor between these two runs because I found that even though I selected Camera Neutral for the second pass and then "Chart" tab that the two profiles were identical.  If I selected the profile in the "Color Tables" tab before the "Chart" tab is selected, the profiles are different - they have the tone and saturation characteristics of the profile I selected in the "Color Tables" tab.

"Clear Color Adjustments" clears all generic color adjustments from the Chart Wizard (except that it won't bring back the Look table of the starting profile).
So does "Clear All Adjustments", however, it may additionally clear the deviating tonality introduced by Camera Matching profiles. Not sure, Im more used to start with the Adobe Standard profile.

Peter

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Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: madmanchan on September 03, 2011, 07:30:40 am
Yes, clear all adjustments will also reset any changes you may have made to the tone curve (2nd panel), in addition to the color edits (1st panel).
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: b2martin on September 04, 2011, 10:41:57 am
Thanks for that input.  I understand the difference between "Clear Color Adjustments" and "Clear All Adjustments". 

If you open an image in the DNG Profile Editor, select a camera profile in the "Color Tables" tab, generate adjustments using the "Chart" tab, clear adjustments (Edit > Clear Color Adjustments) and then save a profile, what characteristics does the profile have?

I assume the profile will have the tone and saturation characteristics of the profile selected under the "Color Tables" tab, but what defines the color tables?

I generated profiles using this approach for all Nikon Camera and Adobe profiles and the color is the same, but tone and satruation of the image is the same or very close to the same as the profile selected as the base profile in the "Color Tables" tab. 

If I generate a profile without clearing the color adjustments the biggest difference I see is in the Red's. 
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: madmanchan on September 04, 2011, 02:03:14 pm
Using your approach, the final profile inherits the tone curve, original color correction tables (not the 3D look table), and color matrices from the original base profile that you started from.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on January 15, 2012, 04:40:26 pm
Apparently, the Adobe Standard Camera Profile is no longer an option in ACR 6.6.  It is gone.
The ACR 4.4 is now, again, the closest match to 'very careful' custom profiles created with Xrite ColorChecker Passport software.
The continued evolution of Camera Raw's software has been an interesting ride. While being a committed fan of the Adobe Raw technology, I guess the expectation is the "Camera Standard" or default camera profile would be a closer match (not sure what the default is now).  Seems the canned camera profiles (camera specific) are being relegated to a set of artistic options instead of a universal standard - or starting point.
Either way, I have found the experience with camera profiles to be a major advance in my personal photography.  My custom profiles are so good that I almost can't believe working again, without them. The other side of this experience is that before the arrival of the Adobe Standard in ACR 6.x, I didn't even know that camera profile management was even needed.  A wonderful ride indeed!
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Bryan Conner on January 16, 2012, 03:54:54 am
Apparently, the Adobe Standard Camera Profile is no longer an option in ACR 6.6.  It is gone.


My ACR 6.6 has Adobe Standard listed as a Camera Profile.


Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on January 16, 2012, 10:24:31 am
My ACR 6.6 has Adobe Standard listed as a Camera Profile.




The reference was a new Photoshop CS5 installation.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: madmanchan on January 16, 2012, 12:35:06 pm
Adobe Standard is the default color profile for all camera models newly supported since ACR 4.5.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Bryan Conner on January 16, 2012, 02:44:25 pm
The reference was a new Photoshop CS5 installation.

I installed my CS5 less than one month ago.  I would think that if something had changed with the application, Adobe would have been updated.

But, it is very strange that you do not see the Adobe Standard profile in your copy.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on January 16, 2012, 05:51:02 pm
Here is my ACR 6.6.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Schewe on January 16, 2012, 06:23:29 pm
Something is wrong with your install. Did you happen to uninstall anything relating to ACR/LR after your CS5 install? I would suggest reinstalling. You might get away with downloading and installing the DNG 6.6 installer and see if that brings back the profiles.
Title: Re: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.
Post by: Raw shooter on January 18, 2012, 08:15:01 pm
Something is wrong with your install. Did you happen to uninstall anything relating to ACR/LR after your CS5 install? I would suggest reinstalling. You might get away with downloading and installing the DNG 6.6 installer and see if that brings back the profiles.
Thanks Jeff, but this computer Win 7, 64 bit, had Photoshop CS4 installed before.  I uninstalled Cs4 prior to the CS5 install.  That may have been the problem here.  Although I won't miss the camera profiles that are missing (Adobe Standard in particular) you most likely are correct on why they are not listed. Thanks for your reply.