Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Frans Waterlander]

Well then, perhaps you can answer this.

What is it that Putin/Russia can provide Trump/USA that could not be more easily obtained from trade with dozens of other friendly countries that would be all too happy to do business with the USA, as they have done for years, to everyone's mutual benefit? I think I understand what Putin hopes to get out of the relationship, but what does Trump get out of it?

Your questions lack the context to make much sense. What relationship are you talking about, what assumptions have you made to come up with a scenario in your mind that put your questions in perspective, at least for you, etc., etc.

[Robert Roaldi]

Your questions lack the context to make much sense. What relationship are you talking about, what assumptions have you made to come up with a scenario in your mind that put your questions in perspective, at least for you, etc., etc.

Yeah, I thought so. Thanks anyway.

[Robert Roaldi]

Patrick Boyle is becoming my favourite online commentator on things financial. His latest entry (about 30 min) is about recent crypto scams, primarily discussing in some detail the one involving the Argentinian President Milei. He goes on to mention a few others including the Trump family forays into the arena and his "meme coins". Along the way he makes some editorial comments about crypto in general and mentions some of the peopole behind some of the plays. As usual, he's very entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdqZ0q6cuYs

[digitaldog]

Well then, perhaps you can answer this.

What is it that Putin/Russia can provide Trump/USA that could not be more easily obtained from trade with dozens of other friendly countries that would be all too happy to do business with the USA, as they have done for years, to everyone's mutual benefit? I think I understand what Putin hopes to get out of the relationship, but what does Trump get out of it?

See: https://apple.news/A5jpe6gubSxaopUGjir3iGQ
THE REAL REASON TRUMP LOVES PUTIN
A new book explores the American right’s tendency to admire and want to emulate foreign dictators.
MARCH 01, 2024
But what makes Heilbrunn’s history, ultimately, so poignant is that the American right no longer needs to project its displaced desires onto leaders in other countries. It doesn’t have to shop abroad for a tribune who channels the movement’s deepest, most subversive desires. Trump is the foreign dictator that they craved all along.

[digitaldog]

Well then, perhaps you can answer this.

He clearly cannot. 

[JoeKitchen]

Well then, perhaps you can answer this.

What is it that Putin/Russia can provide Trump/USA that could not be more easily obtained from trade with dozens of other friendly countries that would be all too happy to do business with the USA, as they have done for years, to everyone's mutual benefit? I think I understand what Putin hopes to get out of the relationship, but what does Trump get out of it?

My God, it really is amazing how many non-Americans are allowing Trump to live rent free in their heads.  LOL

Anyway, let me explain to you the Ukraine situation. 

First, it is not what Trump gets, but what the US gets, or more exactly what the US does not get.  We get nothing from Ukraine.  We get no agriculture products we ourselves can not grow in surplus, we get no raw materials or minerals, we get no sophisticated IP or technology, we get no intelligence or espionage, and we get no safety (at least not directly) by keeping Ukraine free.  So at a certain point in time, as is the case with all countries, we reevaluate our situation. 

That is happening now, and the fact is we are stretched thin, too thin, to deal with the threat from China and the Middle East effectively.  So we, the US, need to redirect our resources, and military protection, to the two allies whom are helping us deal with those two issues and who also provide us with sophisticated IP & technology and military intelligence & espionage, namely Taiwan and Israel.  That is unless Ukraine can supply us with something tangible to keep us there and provide us with resources to help that aforementioned allies above, like minerals. 

Ukraine signing a contract with the US for mineral rights would not only give us an incentive to continue to provide support now, but in the next administration too.  (I doubt Trump is looking for 50%; it's just a starting number.)  Let's not forget Biden's initial response to the war was to offer Zelensky a plane right out of Kiev to let Putin steam roll his way over Ukraine.  Only after being drug kicking and screaming by the Europeans did Biden start supplying support.  I suspect our next administration, just like with Bush, Obama and Biden, will give Putin the opportunity to take a little more here and there if no incentive exists for the US to provide support.  Mineral rights fills that gap and ensure further administrations can not so easily deny support to Ukraine.

Now, if the Europeans have an issue with this, I can understand why.  After all Ukraine is on their border, which means this is really a problem for Europe.  So if they dont like it they are invited to pull up the slack.  I mean the total GDP of Europe is almost nine times that of Russia, so they should have no problem affording it. 

Insofar as the war, the only way it ends is either (a) Putin uses his significantly larger population and economy to steam roll over Ukraine, (b) we (the US and Europe) use our significantly larger population and economy to fight Russia directly with our troops on the ground because Ukraine has lost too many combat age men to fight effectively either from death, injury or emigrating abroad, or (c) a deal is struck with terms we do not like. 

The least bad option appears to be the latter. 

[digitaldog]

The least bad option appears to be the latter.

https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/108229.htm#:~:text=The%20total%20collapse%20of%20the,played%20a%20role%20as%20well.
The total collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 took many in the West by surprise. The fundamental factors that contributed to collapse, including economic stagnation and the overextension of the military, were rooted in Soviet policies, but the Cold War and the U.S. policy of containment played a role as well.

[Robert Roaldi]

My God, it really is amazing how many non-Americans are allowing Trump to live rent free in their heads.  LOL

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Well, if he insists on imposing tariffs that hurt other economies, continues to assert that other countries should be annexed, and hints or refuses to deny using the military to persuade Greenlanders that they really would prefer to be under American control, you can hardly be surprised that people in other lands continue to think about the guy. I mean, what, do you think we have no reason to be concerned?

As for Ukraine, thanks for the explanation. It is of course the USA's right not to get involved in Ukrainian affairs, but there's a fair bit of distance between the USA not wanting to spread itself too thin and getting in bed with Putin. If Trump doesn't want to get involved, all he has to do is not get involved.

But it may all be moot soon. If the domestic clusterf**k continues to worsen, Ukraine may be the least of Trump's headaches. I did enjoy how that guy who was appointed to be deputy secretary to Hegseth refused to state publicly that Russia was the aggressor. Another appointment from the D-list.

[Robert Roaldi]

Trimming excess fat out of bureaucracies doesn't need to be a childishly emotional bloodletting. Only incompetent imbeciles do it that way. Here's a description of how it was done in a better way in one of those loser countries that are not the USA, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqqIN6J-4kE. Of course it wasn't a perfect exercise but there are smart and dumb ways to accomplish things. Casting federal civil service employees as politically partisan bad guys, as Musk/Trump have done, is a pathetic sideshow. I mean, they're mostly just folks trying to do a job. The truly dumb thing is thinking that firing a few of them is going to solve problems of government debt, that's just comical. More silly deflection, governance by sleight of hand.

By doing this way, they've only opened themselves up to years of court cases. I understand that they don't care about that. Even if things actually reach a judge's desk, it will be months late and likely not accomplish much, but it will tie up people for a long time and waste yet more money. Part of the cover story for this charade is that they want to make government more business-like. That's laughable.

[degrub]

Recall Musk's approach on Twitter. Same , Same.
It's cover for DT's increasing the public debt by trillions if the budget bill gets through. He'll tout all the money saved as offsetting the tax cuts even though it is a small fraction of the increase in debt. MAGA won't care. Maybe not even comprehend they've been had. 

[digitaldog]

Very accurate (for once):

[Robert Roaldi]

Very accurate (for once):

Who was supposed to read all those emails that the folks were going to send back to Musk?

i wouldn't have thought that this email-or-be-fired method of laying people off was a good way to foster a citizenry that had good feelings about their country. I'm surprised it's legal but that doesn't mean much these days. Trump might need to hug a flag again or something to smooth things over.

I listened to most of that speech by the governor in the Illinois assembly, a political speech about real things that didn't sound like a whining 14 year old. I doubt it will catch on though, it probably sailed over most people's heads and it went on for more than a minute or two.

They've persisted with a few more town hall meetings, so I might have been wrong about them cancelling them when things went south. We'll see how many more they have.

The latest is maybe the tariffs scheduled for March 4th won't happen. Or maybe they will. Or not. We'll see. There's nothing better than a stable business environment.

I saw a headline that Trump would increase tariffs in industries in which US companies did not buy American. Historically, "conservatives" would not have approved of government telling private companies how to run their affairs. But nowadays people think it's ok for governments to tell parents how to deal with their trans kids so all bets are off.

So is Musk going to Mars or what.

[Robert Roaldi]

If the US administration feels that some departments or projects should not exist, then determine what those are and decide what to do about them. That's standard operating procedure. But Musk/Trump are making the deliberate effort to vilify the individuals working in those departments as if they are enemies of the state. This seems to be kind of needless confrontation that I would expect from a 14 year old. It's wasted energy, serves no adult purpose. Drunken bar talk masquerading as policy.

With huge government debt, they voted to cut taxes, which means cutting important services, but somehow I get the impression that politicians are surprised that voters are complaining about this at those town hall meetings. You have to be pretty tone deaf to be surprised. Maybe politicians think they actually represent the moneyed gentry, not voters, and they don't like to be reminded of it. Hey, I get it, it's stressful but that's why they get paid the big bucks I figure. There was bound to be a reckoning and you'd have to be pretty damn stupid not to see it coming.

The question arises about what Musk/Trump et al really want. What's the end goal. This is a very interesting discussion on this Ezra Klein podcast. He speaks with a long-time silicone valley journalist who knows many of the tech brotherhood. Some of her caustic comments about them are pretty humorous. I wrote software for 25 years and in my experience there are a lot of IT engineers out there who have a much higher opinion of themselves than is justified. Bit it's an occupational hazard, because some of what they is difficult and they end up thinking of themselves as superior people. Talk about entitlement culture. The podcast is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xXLycFv5Gc.

[Robert Roaldi]

An article about the power of "bullshit" in political language, why people engage in it, especially Trump, and why it works https://theconversation.com/why-donald-trump-is-a-relentless-bullshitter-249896?.

[Robert Roaldi]

I really enjoyed Musk's dominance/submission show in front of Trump’s cabinet of eunuchs yesterday. Too bad he’s not female or he could have done it in leather harness and skirt with black pumps and fishnets. Might even have gotten banned on youtube.

Why are cabinet meetings on youtube?

[degrub]

It's a TV show, of course ! 

[Rob C]

Well, what an undignified show in the meeting between Ukraine and the US today. Trump failed to get his hands on the goodies he seeks to get by open extortion (aka his form of “deal”) from little U, and resorted to shouting and tub-thumping. Interesting to learn that, by defending his country, Zelensky is, in fact, playing with starting WW3!. Well, well, well. What an odd way of looking at things: the victim of invasion is now seen as the aggressor! How does one invade one’s own homeland?

I suppose that if somebody is allowed to believe their own re-written versions of history as real for long enough, with nobody around able, brave enough (or perhaps even knowledgeable enough) to point out reality, then nothing better can be expected. Another grim day on which to be an American. How long can the country allow this international embarrassment and humiliation to continue? Does the old one about the invisible suit of clothes go on to reveal what happened to the king after the little boy in the crowd shouted out the king’s nakedness? There must come a point where enough is clearly enough, even in America.

[Robert Roaldi]

Well, what an undignified show in the meeting between Ukraine and the US today. Trump failed to get his hands on the goodies he seeks to get by open extortion (aka his form of “deal”) from little U, and resorted to shouting and tub-thumping. Interesting to learn that, by defending his country, Zelensky is, in fact, playing with starting WW3!. Well, well, well. What an odd way of looking at things: the victim of invasion is now seen as the aggressor! How does one invade one’s own homeland?

I suppose that if somebody is allowed to believe their own re-written versions of history as real for long enough, with nobody around able, brave enough (or perhaps even knowledgeable enough) to point out reality, then nothing better can be expected. Another grim day on which to be an American. How long can the country allow this international embarrassment and humiliation to continue? Does the old one about the invisible suit of clothes go on to reveal what happened to the king after the little boy in the crowd shouted out the king’s nakedness? There must come a point where enough is clearly enough, even in America.

You have to hand it to Zelensky though. He managed to get two of the dumbest politicians currently alive make complete fools of themselves on live TV in front of a worldwide audience.

[Rhossydd]

You have to hand it to Zelensky though. He managed to get two of the dumbest politicians currently alive make complete fools of themselves on live TV in front of a worldwide audience.

I think it's a lot more nuanced and complex than that.
A degree of it seemed pre-planned to denigrate and belittle Zelensky on the world stage, but their incompetence allowed it to get out of control.

The world will now have seen quite how nasty, bullying, lying and arrogant Trump and his administration are with no understanding of anything other than financial greed.

His fan base in the US will see it differently.

A terrible day for America's international reputation, but Putin will like it.

[Robert Roaldi]

I think it's a lot more nuanced and complex than that..
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I'm aware. Is there an emoji for tongue-in-cheek? I don't use them much.

I see that there is lots of online chatter about economic problems, inflation, etc., especially related to tariffs and the town hall meetings. It's obvious to me that the people at the top simply don't care. Not at all. Although economic slowdowns should be bad for company owners, layoffs can offset some of that, and the long-term wage reductions are even more compensation. Most people (or a lot of them) believe that the purpose of government is to act in the best interests of the citizenry. But what happens when the people at the top have no such concerns.

That man of god Michael Johnson even answered a journalist the other day that the protesters at the town halls were actors. He might even believe it.

I heard somewhere that Russian TV got access to the oval office for yesterday's show, so Putin got a front-row seat.