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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1292076 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10540 on: May 21, 2021, 10:24:14 am »

Since when is Twitter a public utility? I didn't follow the details but they seemed to have specific reasons for banning him to do with violations of their terms of service. Could be that banning him is exactly the kind of thing that the authorities might want social media to do. I may be wrong but I don't believe that section 230 gives people carte blanche.

And if I remember a couple of interviews with the Twitter guy (can't remember his name), he stated that they gave Trump lots of leeway precisely because he was the Prez and it was only after lots of deliberation that they banned him.

The fact that lots of people wanted to hear what Trump has to say is irrelevant. Lots of people want to hear what the KKK has to say too, so what, that's not a measure of anything. The President is just a guy like any other, no better and no worse. And you can't possibly be arguing that the President of the US is hampered in his ability to get his word out, I mean be serious. He can give press conferences on all the world's media at the drop of a hat and they'll come running.
Comparing the president of the US who received 75 million votes with the KKK is a strawman.  Come-on.  In any case, I believe the KKK should be allowed their communications too.  As long as people aren't advocating violence, they should be allowed their free speech as well. Should the Black Muslim website be taken down because they hate whites and Jews?  (Do they have a site?) After all, I'm sure they use cell phones and land-line phones with AT&T, Verizon and others.  Should they be allowed to send email and text messages.  What if Verizon Cellular took away their service because they felt their philosophy was dangerous.  What would the Supreme Court say? 



Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10541 on: May 21, 2021, 10:33:30 am »

That's an exaggeration. One or two companies may be dominant in social media, but that hardly makes them dominant in the political domain.
Many people no longer watch the evening news or read newspapers.  Facebook and a couple of Google pages is all they get.  These outlets have become overwhelming in the power to select the speech they want you to hear. Not only personal speech but business speech.  If you're a competitor, these companies can lock you out.  Frankly, it may be business restrictions that cause Congress or the Justice Dept to break them up. The Sherman Anti-Trust Act may wind up being the actual instrument to changing this rather than arguments about free speech.  Many people see them as being anti-competitive like AT&T and Rockefeller's Standard Oil were before they were broken up. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10542 on: May 21, 2021, 01:01:56 pm »

What I find most disturbing of late in the media Alan, is that no liberal mainstream media network is reporting on the fact that what just happened in the Middle East is a direct result of Biden.  If it were not for Biden throwing overtures to Iran and Hamas, this would not have happened.  On top of that, these same people are insisting that the Abraham Accords are the reason even though the countries involved (UAE, Bahrain, and SA, who gave their blessing) have not even said a word about the conflict, actually showing the strength of the Accords. 

Then now, many of the same liberal mainstream media networks are trying to portray Biden as being the reason for the cease-fire when it was clearly Egypt that brokered the deal.  Biden had nothing to do with it, but that is not stopping our most trusted names in News. 

And to think, many on here will still eat it up without doing any actual research, such as read the story in foreign publications that have no reason to prop up Biden.  It is just beyond me that so many still think the liberal mainstream media networks are non-biased when every time a Dem is in the White House, so many of them end up working in the White House, only to return to these same liberal mainstream media networks when a Republican gets in. 
Well of course Biden took credit for the ceasefire.  And the  sycophantic American press swore to it. Twitter should pull his account for lying.  😏

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10543 on: May 21, 2021, 02:57:06 pm »

If this was the Trump family, he'd be investigated by the NY AG's office. Of course, you won't read about this in the biased press. 

Ex-FBI chief gave $100K to Biden grandkid trust as he sought ‘future work’: Hunter emails
https://nypost.com/2021/05/20/ex-fbi-chief-gave-100k-to-biden-grandkid-trust-as-he-sought-future-work-hunter-emails/

James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10544 on: May 21, 2021, 03:20:20 pm »

Of course, you won't read about this in the biased press. 

Ex-FBI chief gave $100K to Biden grandkid trust as he sought ‘future work’: Hunter emails
https://nypost.com/2021/05/20/ex-fbi-chief-gave-100k-to-biden-grandkid-trust-as-he-sought-future-work-hunter-emails/

But... you've just posted a link to where it's definitely being covered in the biased press????
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10545 on: May 21, 2021, 03:36:15 pm »

But... you've just posted a link to where it's definitely being covered in the biased press????
No one reads the Post. 🙄

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10546 on: May 21, 2021, 04:21:49 pm »

What if Verizon Cellular took away their service because they felt their philosophy was dangerous.  What would the Supreme Court say?
Alan, I thought we agreed that comparing the voice telephone business to social media was a false equivalence. Please stop using that silly argument.  It weakens whatever case it is you're trying to present.

BTW, Twitter is not a public utility, it is a corporation.  They are free to make for their customers any rules they like.

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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10547 on: May 21, 2021, 04:59:01 pm »

Comparing the president of the US who received 75 million votes with the KKK is a strawman. ...

I'm not sure you know what "straw man" means.

As for all those people wanting to hear or read what Trump has to say, that's stretching things a bit. I doubt many of your estimated 75 million could stand to actually listen to him, and even if they did, it's not clear what meaning could be derived from his incoherent ramblings. Honestly, he's an embarrassment to the species.  My guess is that a lot of that 75 million voted him either because he wasn't black, he wasn't a woman, or they just got a good belly laugh out of him shooting his mouth off. Maybe they thought they were watching a sit com. I'm not impressed with the thinking of the general public. When I hear that rain on election day can diminish the turnout, it doesn't arouse in me much reverence for the underlying wisdom of the masses. But maybe things average out.

Bottom line, citizen's united said that corporations have freedom of speech, in some manner or other. That means they're going to exercise it and when they do it's always going to piss someone off. When McConnell criticized corporations for whatever it was that he was criticizing them for, he was a flaming hypocrite. He was probably all too happy to hear Koch-funded opinions, so please stop boring us with high-falootin notions of freedom of speech being thwarted because Twitter tossed Trump out. He can start his own online network anytime he wants, since he's so rich we're always being told. So why hasn't he? And like I said before, he was and is free to call press conferences anytime he wants, so nobody is preventing him from speaking out. You're just annoyed that when he does, thousands point out how stupid what he says is.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10548 on: May 21, 2021, 05:37:28 pm »

Alan, I thought we agreed that comparing the voice telephone business to social media was a false equivalence. Please stop using that silly argument.  It weakens whatever case it is you're trying to present.

BTW, Twitter is not a public utility, it is a corporation.  They are free to make for their customers any rules they like.


I never said that. That's your opinion. Facebook and other similar media are very similar to a public utility like the telephone system. This is the Modern Age and many would consider it part of our infrastructure. The phone company is a corporation as well. 

Apple CEO was today defending their position to Congress that it is not a monopoly. Certainly the same could be said about Facebook, Google and other similar corporations.

PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10549 on: May 23, 2021, 12:31:08 pm »


At the end of the day, when one or two outlets control political and other speech so widely, there's a problem.

Nonsense (as usual). Trump still has email, web sites, postal mail, radio and TV ads, magazine and newspaper ads, and the social media sites Gab, Rumble, WeMe, etc. And skywriting. If his followers are too dim to figure this out ... well, that tells you something. And remember, Trump was not banned for political speech but for treasonous speech and the spreading of deliberate and demonstrable falsehoods.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10550 on: May 23, 2021, 01:26:01 pm »

Nonsense (as usual). Trump still has email, web sites, postal mail, radio and TV ads, magazine and newspaper ads, and the social media sites Gab, Rumble, WeMe, etc. And skywriting. If his followers are too dim to figure this out ... well, that tells you something. And remember, Trump was not banned for political speech but for treasonous speech and the spreading of deliberate and demonstrable falsehoods.
It's not Trump.  It's the smaller politicians and people who have different minority opinions who are silenced.  They don't have other outlets. 

Free  speech has nothing to do with lies or truths.  It's all free speech.  No one has a monopoly on distortions, hyperbole, irony, or straight fibs.  If we eliminated those, you'd have to ban all politicians.  Are you arguing Democrat's and liberals tell the truth?  Do photographers tell then truth about their favorite cameras and processes?  Or are they opinions?  What you want to do is silence those whose opinions you disagree with.  Of course, only you have the "truth". You're anti-free speech.  You don't understand the 1st Amendment. It doesn't say you free to tell the truth.  It says your free to speak. 

kers

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10551 on: May 23, 2021, 03:26:28 pm »

It's not Trump.  It's the smaller politicians and people who have different minority opinions who are silenced.  They don't have other outlets. 

Free  speech has nothing to do with lies or truths.  It's all free speech.  No one has a monopoly on distortions, hyperbole, irony, or straight fibs.  If we eliminated those, you'd have to ban all politicians.  Are you arguing Democrat's and liberals tell the truth?  Do photographers tell then truth about their favorite cameras and processes?  Or are they opinions?  What you want to do is silence those whose opinions you disagree with.  Of course, only you have the "truth". You're anti-free speech.  You don't understand the 1st Amendment. It doesn't say you free to tell the truth.  It says your free to speak.
As you demonstrate all the time...
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10552 on: May 23, 2021, 05:34:21 pm »

The right to free speech — and the First Amendment protection of it — is misunderstood by some. The First Amendment provides broad (but not unlimited) protection from interference by government in free expression. Part of that protection from interference by government is that you, me, Fox, CNN, Facebook, Twitter, Luminous Landscape, etc. are free to choose what content we want — or do not want — to publish, broadcast, disseminate, or consume. The standards for acceptable content are freely determined by the companies and individuals that distribute or consume content without government interference, providing that content doesn't run into conflict with specific legal limits such as libel, human trafficking, child welfare, etc.

The freedom for companies or individuals to decide what content they deem acceptable is not limited based on the size of your audience or the number of users of your service. The size of an audience or user base is determined by individuals in a free market who choose to view or listen to what is distributed by a particular platform or service or who choose not to do so. There is no government constraint on what providers or consumers of information freely choose to do or not to do as long as laws such as those previously mentioned are not violated. Accordingly, providers and consumers are equally free to limit what they provide or consume without any government coercion to provide or consume any kind of specific content. Content providers also have the freedom to limit who is able to view or distribute content using their service without any government interference.

Government cannot coerce a publisher, broadcaster, or distributor to carry my or anyone else's content or commentary regardless of what I think they should do and the government cannot coerce me to consume any content against my wishes. The First Amendment guards against both types of government interference.

I also cannot use government to prohibit distribution or consumption of legal content to which I object. The First Amendment guards against that as well. The First Amendment is the guardian from both government prohibition and coercion regarding free determination by companies or individuals of what content they choose — or choose not — to consume or distribute.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10553 on: May 23, 2021, 06:05:58 pm »

It's not Trump.  It's the smaller politicians and people who have different minority opinions who are silenced.  They don't have other outlets. 

Free  speech has nothing to do with lies or truths.  It's all free speech.  No one has a monopoly on distortions, hyperbole, irony, or straight fibs.  If we eliminated those, you'd have to ban all politicians.  Are you arguing Democrat's and liberals tell the truth?  Do photographers tell then truth about their favorite cameras and processes?  Or are they opinions?  What you want to do is silence those whose opinions you disagree with.  Of course, only you have the "truth". You're anti-free speech.  You don't understand the 1st Amendment. It doesn't say you free to tell the truth.  It says your free to speak.

Not have other outlets? Did you not read the part of my post about all the other outlets available to anyone? You just don't get it, Alan, and what's more you don't get that you don't get it.

If Steve Bannon, MT Green, or any other right-wing tool started another social media site, fine. Their right. And if they banned posts from AOC and Bernie and so on, fine with me. I would not be on line whining about censorship and free speech.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10554 on: May 23, 2021, 07:17:15 pm »

Regarding some of the constitutionally and legally protected limitations which can be imposed on "opinions" and other forms of speech, please allow me to provide an example of limitations on when, where, and how your opinion may be legally restricted by a business or other individuals. I'll use a theater as it's the classic example used to illustrate where government is allowed to intervene in your protected free speech — yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is not protected speech as the government has a duty to guard against the public endangerment that may result from such an act.

You go to a movie theater and don't like the movie. You're free to express your opinion of the movie with some limitations. You may be able express your opinion by whispering softly to your friend sitting next to you, providing it doesn't disturb other patrons. You can certainly express your opinion of the movie when you get home or go out afterward. However, if you stand up in the theater and start yelling "this movie stinks!", the business can tell you to leave and have the police escort you out if you refuse. The legal basis for their right to remove you and even have you trespassed from returning to their place of business is their right to determine what constitutes acceptable conduct in order to provide the user experience they desire for their customers.

Who holds an opinion; why they have that opinion; and what that opinion might be are all protected from interference by the government. The when, where, and how that opinion is expressed may not be protected from interference by the government, a business, or other individuals depending on the particular circumstances. Time, place, and manner restrictions on expression are well established legal and constitutional doctrines provided they are reasonable and not discriminatory.

With regard to a business, even what you express can be limited if it doesn't comport with their policies intended to provide the environment they desire for patrons of their service. If a business finds your self-expression or speech to be inflammatory, rude, hateful, disturbing, or in some other way objectionable to their standards of conduct, they have the right to ask you to stop the objectionable behavior, ask you to leave, or prohibit you from remaining or returning. This applies both to in-person and online services and includes publishers and distributors of content. The rights to limitation described are not limited to businesses and may also apply to government agencies or non-governmental organizations.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10555 on: May 23, 2021, 07:18:12 pm »

The right to free speech — and the First Amendment protection of it — is misunderstood by some. The First Amendment provides broad (but not unlimited) protection from interference by government in free expression. Part of that protection from interference by government is that you, me, Fox, CNN, Facebook, Twitter, Luminous Landscape, etc. are free to choose what content we want — or do not want — to publish, broadcast, disseminate, or consume. The standards for acceptable content are freely determined by the companies and individuals that distribute or consume content without government interference, providing that content doesn't run into conflict with specific legal limits such as libel, human trafficking, child welfare, etc.

The freedom for companies or individuals to decide what content they deem acceptable is not limited based on the size of your audience or the number of users of your service. The size of an audience or user base is determined by individuals in a free market who choose to view or listen to what is distributed by a particular platform or service or who choose not to do so. There is no government constraint on what providers or consumers of information freely choose to do or not to do as long as laws such as those previously mentioned are not violated. Accordingly, providers and consumers are equally free to limit what they provide or consume without any government coercion to provide or consume any kind of specific content. Content providers also have the freedom to limit who is able to view or distribute content using their service without any government interference.

Government cannot coerce a publisher, broadcaster, or distributor to carry my or anyone else's content or commentary regardless of what I think they should do and the government cannot coerce me to consume any content against my wishes. The First Amendment guards against both types of government interference.

I also cannot use government to prohibit distribution or consumption of legal content to which I object. The First Amendment guards against that as well. The First Amendment is the guardian from both government prohibition and coercion regarding free determination by companies or individuals of what content they choose — or choose not — to consume or distribute.
The constitution does not guarantee section 230 protection against lawsuits. If Fb, Google, Twitter etc. wish to act as a publisher and decide whose views are allowed on their sites, they should not have the protection of Section 230.   

If any of these outlets grow inn size to a monopoly, then there are constitutionally acceptable law that may prohibit that such as the Sherman anti Trust act.   While there are thousands of cables carriers, there's only one FB. 

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10556 on: May 23, 2021, 10:45:56 pm »

There is also a good deal of misunderstanding regarding the liability limitation which is provided under current U.S. law in regard to distribution of specific types of online content. That liability limit has nothing whatsoever to do with "protection" of content providers to determine, at their sole discretion, what or whose content they deem acceptable or unacceptable or their ability to prohibit content they deem unacceptable or choose not to distribute or publish thru their online service. That ability is already guaranteed by the First Amendment which prevents coercion of content providers into providing distribution of content they don't freely choose to provide based on whatever criteria or reason they may freely decide.

There is no difference in liability between online content providers and their print and broadcast competitors regarding the creation of original content. If you are a business or individual that creates, edits, or produces original content for distribution, then you are liable for that content whether it is online, printed, or broadcast as the creator and originator of that content. No difference in liability... none. One example would be articles and editorials which are created; solicited by; or contributed to Luminous Landscape which they review, edit, and publish. They are responsible for that content and bear a liability for it. That liability is distinguishable from the forum content and commentary — over which they exercise much more limited review and control — thanks to existing law which limits their liability for what you or I might generate in their forum. Without that limitation of liability for our content generation, they may risk responsibility and liability for it.

There is a realistic recognition in U.S. law of the differences between legacy media content and certain specific online media content. Those distinct differences are the ready access provided to third-parties by some online platforms to generate unreviewed and unedited content and commentary along with an unprecedented speed and volume in the production of such third-party content and commentary compared to traditional print and broadcast mediums. For instance, I cannot log into a newspaper or magazine printing press and insert my own content into their publication as it rolls off their presses. I can't insert myself into a TV or radio broadcast without getting permission from someone screening my presence beforehand or without their having the ability to cut me off if I engage in conduct or language which they find objectionable. However, my online comments or content can be instantly distributed to the world whenever and wherever I have access to an online platform or service that permits it. Limited liability for third-party user generated online content is what U.S. law provides... period. That limit on liability is just that... limited. Online content providers can still be sued over third-party content, but the current law provides for a strong defense unless gross negligence can be shown and proved.

If you want to see online commentary reduced, filtered, edited, or eliminated entirely then getting rid of the current liability limitations for third-party user generated content would likely accomplish that goal. The best protection from liability would probably be requiring pre-screening of any and all comments and content before posting and distribution. Some might think that a good idea, but it would not provide for greater freedom of speech. It would more likely reduce it dramatically! And all of the above applies not just to social media platforms, but to every website that allows for online commentary whether conservative, moderate, liberal, political, nonpolitical, or any other kind of website or online platform. Take away that limited liability protection for online commentary and watch the comment sections and forums dry up or the lawsuits soar. However, it would provide lots of new income opportunities to libel lawyers if that's your chosen profession.

I'll repeat, it has nothing whatsoever to do with "protecting" content providers or publishers ability to choose what or whose content they may choose to prohibit from their platform, publication, or distribution. That "protection" is a First Amendment right which prevents coercing the distribution of content and allows them free choice as to what they do or do not distribute or "publish". [Please forgive the repetition, but some folks don't get it the first, second, or third time.. or ever in some cases.] As a completely irrelevant aside, antitrust law has zero impact on the First Amendment right of publishers and content providers to freely choose whether or not to publish or distribute anything from anyone. Antitrust law is focused on anticompetitive behavior not First Amendment rights regarding what a company freely chooses to publish or not publish or what content they choose to distribute or not distribute. Size, reach, or popularity are also not antitrust violations; it's the behavior exercised toward competitors or potential competitors that's of issue.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10557 on: May 24, 2021, 06:55:19 am »

There is also a good deal of misunderstanding regarding the liability limitation which is provided under current U.S. law in regard to distribution of specific types of online content.
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Thank you very much for this explanatory series.

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Bryan Conner

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10558 on: May 24, 2021, 12:20:21 pm »

The constitution does not guarantee section 230 protection against lawsuits. If Fb, Google, Twitter etc. wish to act as a publisher and decide whose views are allowed on their sites, they should not have the protection of Section 230.   

If any of these outlets grow inn size to a monopoly, then there are constitutionally acceptable law that may prohibit that such as the Sherman anti Trust act.   While there are thousands of cables carriers, there's only one FB.

But there are many different social media platforms.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10559 on: May 24, 2021, 12:35:44 pm »

  While there are thousands of cables carriers, there's only one FB.

Right, Alan.  Even though you've said on multiple occasions
"I don't use Facebook.  I don't know anything about it"

Much like the former guy's protestations of "I don't even know the guy.  I get my picture taken many times a day" 

etc. etc.
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