Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[JoeKitchen]

Not sure what argument you're making here

1 Florida had a strict lockdown and yet cases went up (it didn't),
or
2. Florida had no meaningful lockdown but cases went down (they didn't).

Maybe you have a better idea how to control an extremely infectious virus?

FL, the least restrictive state, and CA, the most restrictive state, have very similar results when it comes to infections and deaths.  If lockdowns work, shouldn't CA be doing much better? 

Actually I do you one much better.  If lockdowns worked the first time, why are we still doing them?  If lockdowns did not work the first time, why are we still doing them? 

[jeremyrh]

FL, the least restrictive state, and CA, the most restrictive state, have very similar results when it comes to infections and deaths.  If lockdowns work, shouldn't CA be doing much better? 

Actually I do you one much better.  If lockdowns worked the first time, why are we still doing them?  If lockdowns did not work the first time, why are we still doing them?

If FL and CA were the same in all other respects you might have a point. As it is, you don't.

Lockdowns reduce the number of infected people. They don't eliminate the virus, they prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed, they buy time for vaccines to be developed and deployed and they get the levels down to where testing programmes can be effective.

[Robert Roaldi]

Interesting findings about how Covid is mutating, https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/02/05/964447070/where-did-the-coronavirus-variants-come-from.

[JoeKitchen]

If FL and CA were the same in all other respects you might have a point. As it is, you don't.

Lockdowns reduce the number of infected people. They don't eliminate the virus, they prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed, they buy time for vaccines to be developed and deployed and they get the levels down to where testing programmes can be effective.

Yes, you're right, FL population is older and more susceptible.  They should have higher rates of infection and death considering how lenient they were. 

But anyway, lockdowns dont work!  Or should I say lockdowns maybe work, just that people wont actually do them even if they support them. 

You see, as someone on the right, I, unlike you, realize that human nature is unchangeable.  You can not manipulate the laws and eventually reach utopia, just like you can not put in place lockdowns and expect people to stay at home and never seek company.  People will seek and enjoy in the company of friends and family regardless of how much you lockdown, and that is the fundamental flaw in the lockdowns. 

So instead of allowing people to enjoy company outside, where the virus does not spread, CA inadvertently caused people to enjoy company inside away from prying eyes, where the virus spreads easily.  That is all they did, and as much as you piss and moan over it, human nature will not be changed. 

[JoeKitchen]

I get my pension from NYS so I hope they stay healthy.  As a New Yorker most of my life, it's heartbreaking to see the city closed up the way it is when I visit there once in a while.   Spending the $1.9 is just adding to the debt besides setting us up to similar stagflation that I remember back in the 1970s and 80s with high unemployment and inflation of double digits.  Of course, back then you could get double digit interest rates to make up for some of the increases.  That won't happen this time.  Florida's nice this time of year.  Doesn't get so hot and humid.

So I ran the FL idea by my wife and she said we should wait until ...

Saint Patricks day!  We doubt Philly will really doing anything, so Miami would be much nicer and warmer too. 

[jeremyrh]

Yes, you're right, FL population is older and more susceptible.  They should have higher rates of infection and death considering how lenient they were. 

But anyway, lockdowns dont work!  Or should I say lockdowns maybe work, just that people wont actually do them even if they support them. 

You see, as someone on the right, I, unlike you, realize that human nature is unchangeable.  You can not manipulate the laws and eventually reach utopia, just like you can not put in place lockdowns and expect people to stay at home and never seek company.  People will seek and enjoy in the company of friends and family regardless of how much you lockdown, and that is the fundamental flaw in the lockdowns. 

So instead of allowing people to enjoy company outside, where the virus does not spread, CA inadvertently caused people to enjoy company inside away from prying eyes, where the virus spreads easily.  That is all they did, and as much as you piss and moan over it, human nature will not be changed.

Your preferred strategy doesn't seem to be working out too well in Brazil:
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n394

Meanwhile, for the curious, a deeper dive into the relative performance of states:
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/12/03/is-florida-doing-better-on-coronavirus-than-locked-down-states-politifact/

[digitaldog]

So I ran the FL idea by my wife and she said we should wait until ...

The smarter one in the family 😂

COVID Is on Track to Become the U.S.’s Leading Cause of Death—Yet Again
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-is-on-track-to-become-the-u-s-s-leading-cause-of-death-yet-again1/

COVID-19 as the Leading Cause of Death in the United States
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2774465

You know what caused zero deaths the year prior?
Recently 5000 died of Covid-19 in the United States in one day!
How many died on 9/11 and what effect and efforts will you be subject to before you get on that flight to Florida because of that day?

Have any loved ones or people you care about who have died from Covid-19 Joe?

[Alan Klein]

Most people who get sick with Covid are not the same after.
Just look at Trump. After his bout with Covid, he got even more irritable and stranger than before taking all those disinfectants.

That's funny.  The same thing happens to me when I rinse my mouth out with bleach.

[JoeKitchen]

The smarter one in the family 😂

COVID Is on Track to Become the U.S.’s Leading Cause of Death—Yet Again
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-is-on-track-to-become-the-u-s-s-leading-cause-of-death-yet-again1/

COVID-19 as the Leading Cause of Death in the United States
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2774465

You know what caused zero deaths the year prior?
Recently 5000 died of Covid-19 in the United States in one day!
How many died on 9/11 and what effect and efforts will you be subject to before you get on that flight to Florida because of that day?

Have any loved ones or people you care about who have died from Covid-19 Joe?

I do not know a single person who has died from Covid, albeit I have known people who had it.  They fully recovered.  I would be willing to bet I had it as well. 

Now, with that said, I do know several people who were destroyed by the lockdowns, and a few wont recover. 

[digitaldog]

I do not know a single person who has died from Covid, albeit I have known people who had it.  They fully recovered.  I would be willing to bet I had it as well. 

Now, with that said, I do know several people who were destroyed by the lockdowns, and a few wont recover.

Like Trump, empathy challenged. 😰
And as requested but never provided, define “lockdown”.
An infectious disease is hugely preventable.

[digitaldog]

That's funny.  The same thing happens to me when I rinse my mouth out with bleach.

Try swallowing it; now it's funny.

[JoeKitchen]

Like Trump, emphatically challenged.
And as requested but never provided, define “lockdown”.
An infectious disease is hugely preventable.

As I have pointed out in the past, you are talking to a libertarian, and we rank lowest on the empathy scale.  I also go out of my way to ignore my emotions when making policy decisions because it usually leads to bad decisions, aka the story of Progressive politics over the last 6 decades.

The fact that you, and so many others, are still pushing this false binary of either you are for locking down entirely or are for killing everyone is absurd and completely lost all treads  months ago.  After looking at the full effects of C-19 and juxtaposing that against the lockdowns, I see far worse societal damages from the lockdowns.  Mental health issues have skyrocketed, so has addiction, depression, suicide, crime rates, abuse, bankruptcy, mortgage/rent defaults, etc. 

If I had children, I would have moved to FL already just for the schooling and socializing.  I just read today that mask wearing by adults is showing signs of stunting speech development in infants, how nice.  I guess it will be a good boom for speech therapists. 

[digitaldog]

As I have pointed out in the past, you are talking to a libertarian, and we rank lowest on the empathy scale.  I also go out of my way to ignore my emotions when making policy decisions because it usually leads to bad decisions, aka the story of Progressive politics over the last 6 decades.

The fact that you, and so many others, are still pushing this false binary of either you are for locking down entirely or are for killing everyone is absurd and completely lost all treads  months ago.  After looking at the full effects of C-19 and juxtaposing that against the lockdowns, I see far worse societal damages from the lockdowns.  Mental health issues have skyrocketed, so has addiction, depression, suicide, crime rates, abuse, bankruptcy, mortgage/rent defaults, etc. 

If I had children, I would have moved to FL already just for the schooling and socializing.  I just read today that mask wearing by adults is showing signs of stunting speech development in infants, how nice.  I guess it will be a good boom for speech therapists.

Thank you for admitting your lack of empathy, and your inability to define what lockdown means.

[Alan Klein]

Your preferred strategy doesn't seem to be working out too well in Brazil:
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n394

Meanwhile, for the curious, a deeper dive into the relative performance of states:
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/12/03/is-florida-doing-better-on-coronavirus-than-locked-down-states-politifact/

Maybe no matter what we do, the disease just has to go through its paces.  Hopefully the vaccines are helping us to reach herd immunity or at least reduce the numbers.  That seems to be happening  here in New Jersey and the US where there was half the number of cases than what it was running. 
Covid Cases Worldwide by country and state

[Alan Klein]

Thank you for admitting your lack of empathy, and your inability to define what lockdown means.

There it is.  We hearing it from Mr. Feelings.

[JoeKitchen]

Thank you for admitting your lack of empathy, and your inability to define what lockdown means.

We have also gone over this before, with the many different versions of lockdowns happening, it is an impossible word to clearly define at this point.  It's just like how Justice Potter Stewart spoke of obscenity, "I know it when I see it." 

PS, if you insist on being coy here in accepting this obvious truth, I will simply regard you as being deliberately obtuse.

[LesPalenik]

That's funny.  The same thing happens to me when I rinse my mouth out with bleach.

Have you tried Tequila?

[jeremyrh]

Maybe no matter what we do, the disease just has to go through its paces.

What does that actually mean?

[jeremyrh]

The fact that you, and so many others, are still pushing this false binary of either you are for locking down entirely or are for killing everyone is absurd and completely lost all treads  months ago. 

So you say, but you haven't proposed a viable alternative, so we will have to conclude that "empathy" isn't the only scale where libertards score low.

[Alan Klein]

Have you tried Tequila?

Tequila gave me headaches, like moonshine.