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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1320705 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5400 on: January 07, 2021, 01:52:47 pm »

Not only were there demonstrations.  But Congress was in a special session for the Jan 6th meeting to approve the electoral vote.  So with a demonstration going on and the full congress at work, there were no police around to stop this mob and keep order. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5401 on: January 07, 2021, 01:59:44 pm »

Not only were there demonstrations.  But Congress was in a special session for the Jan 6th meeting to approve the electoral vote.  So with a demonstration going on and the full congress at work, there were no police around to stop this mob and keep order.

The reason that the thief stole the jewels was the owner didn't have a burglar alarm. He should have had a big burglar alarm. Two would have been better. Maybe some guard dogs. It's all his fault.

Let's not lose sight of this important fact: an angry mob of Trump's supporters, having been whipped into a frenzy by Trump himself with deliberate lies calculated to instill violent rage, stormed the Capitol causing death and destruction.

But what does Alan do? Whatabouts the police. Disgraceful, but expected from a Trump apologist.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 02:42:39 pm by faberryman »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5402 on: January 07, 2021, 02:59:29 pm »

I'm not excusing anyone. But, when the police aren't around, people often get stupid and become a mob.  So where were the police?  Not the National Guard. Just the regular Capitol Police?   You mean they knew there was going to be a demonstration.  And no one made arrangements to have the police there?  Was that deliberate?

Good questions. But you should direct them to people who were still in charge. Like the outgoing president and his staff.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5403 on: January 07, 2021, 03:05:01 pm »

Not only were there demonstrations.  But Congress was in a special session for the Jan 6th meeting to approve the electoral vote.  So with a demonstration going on and the full congress at work, there were no police around to stop this mob and keep order.

We know that. But why were the police not there despite all the pre-announcements by Trump? It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5404 on: January 07, 2021, 03:13:43 pm »


Here is a link to the transcript of Trump's speech at the Save America rally yesterday morning. It is an hour and thirteen minutes of lies.

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5405 on: January 07, 2021, 03:31:56 pm »

It may have been the Democrats who "let them in" to embarrass Trump and the Republicans.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the men come and take you away

We better stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look, what's going down.

For What It's Worth (1967) - Buffalo Springfield

https://youtu.be/For What It's Worth - Buffalo Springfield (Cover by Del McCoury Band and friends)

« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 04:12:58 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5406 on: January 07, 2021, 04:08:55 pm »

After all, the Washington DC police who protect the capital is run by democrats.

The DC Metro Police don't protect the Capitol—the Capitol Police have the duty to protect the Capitol. But, you won't let details get in the way of another fable.

Under the District of Columbia Home Rule Act, whenever the President of the United States determines that special conditions of an emergency nature exist which require the use of the Metropolitan Police for Federal purposes, the president may direct the Mayor to provide, and the Mayor shall provide, such services of the Metropolitan Police force for up to 48 hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Police_Department_of_the_District_of_Columbia

On the other hand, it could have just been normal Democrat incompetence.

Yeah. Clearly that's how you see the world around you and rationalize events.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5407 on: January 07, 2021, 04:12:07 pm »

There seems to be lots of resignations of White House and other administration staff. I don't want to be too ungenerous, but with only 2 weeks to go those are pretty meaningless gestures. The expression "a day late and a dollar short come to mind."

What a shambles. If this is how Trump ran his various companies, it might explain all the bankruptcies.

Could we be witnessing the early manifestations of dementia? His behaviour is beyond unusual.
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Robert

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5408 on: January 07, 2021, 04:31:40 pm »

Here is a link to the transcript of Trump's speech at the Save America rally yesterday morning. It is an hour and thirteen minutes of lies.

https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6

If anyone has the stomach for it, this is what it looks and sounds like when an insecure narcissistic authoritarian president loses an election and decides to incite a mob of conspiracy-minded cultists to insurrection.

https://www.youtube.com/Trump Save America rally January 6: full comments
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5409 on: January 07, 2021, 04:35:04 pm »

We know that. But why were the police not there despite all the pre-announcements by Trump? It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots.

Indeed. Anybody thinking this is just a mistake is very naive.

I have no idea who gave the orders and why but the odds that they were let in is extremely high.

Cheers,
Bernard

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5410 on: January 07, 2021, 04:50:10 pm »

There seems to be lots of resignations of White House and other administration staff. I don't want to be too ungenerous, but with only 2 weeks to go those are pretty meaningless gestures. The expression "a day late and a dollar short come to mind."

No one should get credit for enabling this guy for four years and suddenly finding a conscience with thirteen days to go.

In particular, Pence, Trump’s obsequious toady, doesn’t qualify as any kind hero.

Trump is now bitching and moaning that Twitter won’t let him post for twelve hours just because he incited a riot.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/after-inciting-capitol-riot-trump-whines-to-advisers-why-cant-i-tweet
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:02:27 pm by faberryman »
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kers

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5411 on: January 07, 2021, 05:03:51 pm »

Also yesterday more than 4000 people died in the US...   a pace of about 120.000  deaths a month...
and a 1000 in the UK.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5412 on: January 07, 2021, 05:18:54 pm »

We know that. But why were the police not there despite all the pre-announcements by Trump? It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots.

Security and policing in Washington D.C is divided among several different agencies, each with limited jurisdiction. The ones that would have been involved in the Trump Insurrection Riot yesterday are:

United States Secret Service had the duty of security and protection for both the President at the rally and the Vice President at the Capitol. Also, The Secret Service is the lead agency in charge of the planning, coordination, and implementation of security operations for events designated as National Special Security Events (NSSE).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service

A National Special Security Event (NSSE) is an event of national or international significance deemed by the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to be a potential target for terrorism or other criminal activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Special_Security_Event

United States Park Police would have had jurisdiction at the rally which was held on The Ellipse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Park_Police

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ellipse

United States Capitol Police has exclusive jurisdiction for protection of the Capitol complex and other buildings. It also has concurrent jurisdiction with other law enforcement agencies, including the United States Park Police and the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, in an area of approximately 200 blocks around the complex. Officers also have jurisdiction throughout the District of Columbia to take enforcement action when they observe or are made aware of crimes of violence while on official duties. Additionally, they are charged with the protection of members of Congress, officers of Congress, and their families throughout the entire United States, its territories and possessions, and the District of Columbia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Police

Numerous other federal police agencies have very specific jurisdiction inside and outside of Washington D.C. I expect that Congress will hold hearings or establish a commission to investigate and make recommendations for improving security and coordination between various agencies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#List_of_agencies_and_units_of_agencies

The bottom line is that Trump and his complicit enablers and apologists created a bonfire out of lies and then poured gasoline on it. They are the ones ultimately responsible for the insurrection at the Capitol which overwhelmed police.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:30:47 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5413 on: January 07, 2021, 05:26:46 pm »

Good questions. But you should direct them to people who were still in charge. Like the outgoing president and his staff.
Congress is in charge of the Capitol Police, not the President.  That's why I question why they weren't prepared. What were they told to do?  Did someone in Congress tell them to stand down? And if so, why?

"The United States Capitol Police (USCP) is a federal law enforcement agency in the United States charged with protecting the United States Congress within the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its territories. It answers to Congress, not the President of the United States, and is the only full-service federal law enforcement agency responsible to the legislative branch of the Federal Government of the United States.

The United States Capitol Police has the primary responsibility for protecting life and property; preventing, detecting, and investigating criminal acts; and enforcing traffic regulations throughout a large complex of congressional buildings, parks, and thoroughfares. The Capitol Police has exclusive jurisdiction within all buildings and grounds of the United States Capitol complex as well as the Library of Congress. It also has concurrent jurisdiction with other law enforcement agencies, including the United States Park Police and the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, in an area of approximately 200 blocks around the complex. Officers also have jurisdiction throughout the District of Columbia to take enforcement action when they observe or are made aware of crimes of violence while on official duties. Additionally, they are charged with the protection of members of Congress, officers of Congress, and their families throughout the entire United States, its territories and possessions, and the District of Columbia. While performing protective functions, the Capitol Police have jurisdiction throughout the entire United States."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Police#:~:text=The%20current%20chief%20of%20the%20United%20States%20Capitol%20Police%20is%20Steven%20Sund.

MattBurt

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5414 on: January 07, 2021, 05:34:53 pm »

Congress is in charge of the Capitol Police, not the President.  That's why I question why they weren't prepared. What were they told to do?  Did someone in Congress tell them to stand down? And if so, why?

Must have been McConnell then.
It gave him cover to break up with the president at a strategic moment.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5415 on: January 07, 2021, 05:41:37 pm »

That's why I question why they weren't prepared.

You question and talk about a variety of things to deflect from the fact that an unstable president created the incendiary conditions for a riotous insurrection at the Capitol and then put a match to it. I expect you to keep pointing fingers in every direction except the right ones.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5416 on: January 07, 2021, 05:46:18 pm »

Anyone who may have been reading this thread for a while, and in particularly the past day or so, will recognize this:

Denial and conspiracies: how rightwing media reacted to Trump's mob

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/07/rightwing-media-reaction-trump-mob-capitol

Denials and conspiracy theories are not limited to the media.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:56:27 pm by faberryman »
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5417 on: January 07, 2021, 05:55:15 pm »

I covered a lot of violent demonstrations as a reporter during the Civil Rights and anti-war eras of the 60s and 70s, and I think too much was expected of the cops at the Capitol, and if anyone should be blamed for their failure it's probably Pelosi and McConnell. They are ultimately in charge of the place, and that includes providing money for security. It was obvious to me that there were no where near enough cops to control that mob. Why not? Because the Capitol cops are barely cops -- they're more like security guards who check people through doors and the magnetometers that make sure people don't bring guns into the place. They're fundamentally like bank guards. There were other much tougher cops available -- the metro cops, the Virginia and Maryland cops available through mutual aid agreements, and also the FBI and US Marshal SWAT teams, who nobody in their right mind would fuck with. (The Army National Guard's ground troops are basically good for handing out sandwiches.)

The basic failure was one of intelligence. The Capitol has not been taken over and ransacked since 1814, and I don't think anyone really expected *this* to happen -- a loud and noisy demonstration, yes, but two miles away from the Capitol (at the White House.) We knew that Trump is goofier than an outhouse mouse, but even though I sincerely believe he is nuts, I never imagined that he'd give a rabble-rousing speech to a mob and then send them hurtling toward the Capitol.

So, that's what I think happened. We have a Capitol basically defended by security guards (and enough of them to easily handle daily problems from crazies) but not nearly enough to handle a crazed mob of thousands of people. Yes, people knew that Trump had summoned up a big demonstration, but anyone who says the cops should have expected *this* really doesn't know how these things work, when people are concerned with things like overtime, work schedules, etc. When I saw that crowd running toward the Capitol and that thin line of cops on the steps, I thought, "Oh, shit, here we go." [Edit. I've actually thought that several times in my life, including the time an elderly bigot at a Civil Rights demonstration in Cairo, Illinois, tried to strangle me with my camera strap.]

As an ex-reporter, I would have given my left nut to have been there. I haven't been in a really good riot since the 1972 Republican National Convention in Miami Beach.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:59:21 pm by John Camp »
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kers

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5418 on: January 07, 2021, 05:55:36 pm »

Congress is in charge of the Capitol Police, not the President.  That's why I question why they weren't prepared. What were they told to do?  Did someone in Congress tell them to stand down? And if so, why?
...

it seems the head of the Capitol Police made a massive error of judgement.
Quote
Capitol Police rejected offers of federal help to quell mob
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-riots-police-coronavirus-pandemic-9c39a4ddef0ab60a48828a07e4d03380

in the end it was Pence ( not Trump ) that demanded the help of National Guards from States nearby.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #5419 on: January 07, 2021, 06:06:43 pm »

Facebook Bars Trump Through End of His Term

“We believe the risks of allowing the president to continue to use our service during this period are simply too great,” Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook’s chief executive, said."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/technology/facebook-trump-ban.html

If you can't read the New York Times, I am sure you can find the information on other sites.
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