PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Alan Klein]

Alan, why not look at other parts of the world. Look at Vietnam, Thailand, New Zealand, Korea etc... Their death count is miniscule and their economies are opening up. No one is starving. Trump has screwed up big time...Covid is running rampant across the country killing thousand ps and infecting millions...yet the economy is also down the tube and will be for many years as Trillions have been spent trying to keep it going. So both are screwed...Trump f'd up both ends.

Why are you blaming Trump?  Democrat Governor Gavin Newsom was a big shot who claimed he would decide what to do and Trump should stay out.  So they did.  Now California has more cases than New York.  The same is true everywhere else.  Governors make the decisions when to open up their economies, not the president.  NY Governor Cuomo let sick old people back into their old age homes killing thousands.   Here in New Jersey where I live, our governor has got us up to Phase 3 on what can open, maybe it's Phase 4, not sure.  I'm staying isolated no matter what they say.  They're all morons. 
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-22/california-has-most-covid-19-infections-of-any-state-as-surge-continues

[MattBurt]

And you want to gamble with America's economy and the subsequent deaths and damages lockdown creates.  The fact is there is no simple solution to Covid 19.  It created medical and economic problems that has no obvious solution.  Trying to thread the needle is an impossibility.  Who will you blame when people start starving in the streets and becoming homeless?

I'd blame the governments lack of preparedness again. And also the cruelty this administration likes to wield against their perceived enemies which include the poor and underprivileged. This is what things often labeled "socialist" policies often give us, a safety net for when things get bad. When things are good they might look unnecessary but anyone who has paid attention to history knows that is a shortsighted view.
If we don't contain the virus the economy will still tank. Then we will be broke and sick.

[Alan Klein]

I'd blame the governments lack of preparedness again. And also the cruelty this administration likes to wield against their perceived enemies which include the poor and underprivileged. This is what things often labeled "socialist" policies often give us, a safety net for when things get bad. When things are good they might look unnecessary but anyone who has paid attention to history knows that is a shortsighted view.
If we don't contain the virus the economy will still tank. Then we will be broke and sick.

Everyone's a socialist now, what are you talking about?  The senate voted 96-0 for the first CARES and PPP bill.  Trump's been pushing for giving out even more.  You really aren't keeping up.  Your hatred for Trump is blinding you to what he's done.  They've spent trillion and trillions.  They're going to pass another bill shortly that will print trillions and trillions more.  When the US dollar collapses soon, and your pay check and savings aren't worth squat, who will you blame then?  Buy gold or a gold EFT.  That's what I've done.

[Robert Roaldi]

Why are you blaming Trump?  Democrat Governor Gavin Newsom was a big shot who claimed he would decide what to do and Trump should stay out.  So they did.  Now California has more cases than New York.  The same is true everywhere else.  Governors make the decisions when to open up their economies, not the president.  NY Governor Cuomo let sick old people back into their old age homes killing thousands.   Here in New Jersey where I live, our governor has got us up to Phase 3 on what can open, maybe it's Phase 4, not sure.  I'm staying isolated no matter what they say.  They're all morons. 
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-22/california-has-most-covid-19-infections-of-any-state-as-surge-continues

Love the way you managed to work in 2 Democrat governors, ignoring FLA and Texas and others.

You can tell us, you're among friends, you're on the payroll as a Republican social media influencer, aren't you? 

[Alan Klein]

Love the way you managed to work in 2 Democrat governors, ignoring FLA and Texas and others.

You can tell us, you're among friends, you're on the payroll as a Republican social media influencer, aren't you? 

First, I don't belong to Facebook, Twitter or any other social media other than some photo forums if those are considered social media.  As far as Florida and Texas
republican governors, they're morons as much as Democrat governors are. 

[MattBurt]

Everyone's a socialist now, what are you talking about?  The senate voted 96-0 for the first CARES and PPP bill.  Trump's been pushing for giving out even more.  You really aren't keeping up.  Your hatred for Trump is blinding you to what he's done.  They've spent trillion and trillions.  They're going to pass another bill shortly that will print trillions and trillions more.  When the US dollar collapses soon, and your pay check and savings aren't worth squat, who will you blame then?  Buy gold or a gold EFT.  That's what I've done.

Well if everyone is a socialist now then we have nothing to worry about. It already happened. Do you use Medicare? Social Security? Maybe you are part of the "problem" too? But not really.

Trump actually just cut a couple billion from the latest proposed bill for native people who are one of the hardest hit groups from this pandemic.
They are saying they want to continue to separate and cage children from asylum seekers, even with COVID-19 outbreaks in those facilities.
This administration is still actively trying to eliminate the Affordable Healthcare Act in the middle of a pandemic, leaving millions uninsured.
They are hiding previously public data on the pandemic that could be used to save more lives in an attempt to hide the severity of it and look better.
Withholding aid and medical supplies from states whose leaders he is mad at to punish them.

The list is much longer but those are just a few off the top of my head.

The CARES act was a start. Going forward if we need to go into lockdown again, it needs to be enough that people don't feel like they need to hurry back to work. Not to make them lazy but to effectively contain the virus. Yes it will be costly. But it would save lives and contain the virus which will lead us back to more prosperous times. It's working elsewhere.

Finally, it's true that like many other reasonable folks, I find Trump absolutely detestable. I doubt he could ever redeem himself in my eyes. I feel like my dislike of Trump is based on his track record of being a willfully ignorant, lying, abusive, unprepared, vindictive sociopath. If I only had policy disagreements, it wouldn't be quite this strong.

[faberryman]

First, I don't belong to Facebook, Twitter or any other social media other than some photo forums if those are considered social media.  As far as Florida and Texas
republican governors, they're morons as much as Democrat governors are.

Saying everyone is a moron doesn't really solve the problem, does it?

[Alan Klein]

Well if everyone is a socialist now then we have nothing to worry about. It already happened. Do you use Medicare? Social Security? Maybe you are part of the "problem" too? But not really.

Trump actually just cut a couple billion from the latest proposed bill for native people who are one of the hardest hit groups from this pandemic.
They are saying they want to continue to separate and cage children from asylum seekers, even with COVID-19 outbreaks in those facilities.
This administration is still actively trying to eliminate the Affordable Healthcare Act in the middle of a pandemic, leaving millions uninsured.
They are hiding previously public data on the pandemic that could be used to save more lives in an attempt to hide the severity of it and look better.
Withholding aid and medical supplies from states whose leaders he is mad at to punish them.

The list is much longer but those are just a few off the top of my head.

The CARES act was a start. Going forward if we need to go into lockdown again, it needs to be enough that people don't feel like they need to hurry back to work. Not to make them lazy but to effectively contain the virus. Yes it will be costly. But it would save lives and contain the virus which will lead us back to more prosperous times. It's working elsewhere.

Finally, it's true that like many other reasonable folks, I find Trump absolutely detestable. I doubt he could ever redeem himself in my eyes. I feel like my dislike of Trump is based on his track record of being a willfully ignorant, lying, abusive, unprepared, vindictive sociopath. If I only had policy disagreements, it wouldn't be quite this strong.

If they gave me $600 a week, I'd be glad to stay home too.    When you say other countries are doing similar things, what other country is giving people $600 a week or anything like that to not work, more than they get if they were working?  That's just stupid.  I'm paying for that as well.  Why should the government steal money from me and give it to people who'd rather sit home on their asses and not work and spend the money on buying bling for themselves?  This is why socialist countries go broke. 

[Alan Klein]

Saying everyone is a moron doesn't really solve the problem, does it?

No.  But it reminds me how hopeless a situation is when we rely on bureaucrats to help us rather than relying on ourselves.  Instead of saving for a rainy day, people spend $1100 for an iP{hone every two years to impress their friends.  They figure the government will bail them out which is true.  We created moral hazard where people act stupid because the look to Uncle Sam to help them.  Meanwhile the whole country is going into debt we'll never get out of destroying savings, the dollar and our economy. It's not just the lower income but the upper income as well.  Corporations, banks, small and middle size businesses, everyone has their hands out.  A roll of 35mm Velvia 50 will soon jump from $18 to $40 due to inflation.  Good luck. 

[hogloff]

Why are you blaming Trump?  Democrat Governor Gavin Newsom was a big shot who claimed he would decide what to do and Trump should stay out.  So they did.  Now California has more cases than New York.  The same is true everywhere else.  Governors make the decisions when to open up their economies, not the president.  NY Governor Cuomo let sick old people back into their old age homes killing thousands.   Here in New Jersey where I live, our governor has got us up to Phase 3 on what can open, maybe it's Phase 4, not sure.  I'm staying isolated no matter what they say.  They're all morons. 
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-22/california-has-most-covid-19-infections-of-any-state-as-surge-continues

And what the hell is Trump actually responsible for. Seems to me countries that dealt well with the virus had great leadership from the top...not throwing the mess down to individual states. After all the name of your country is UNITED States of America...who is there in charge that will unite these states. Trump loves to put a pitch fork between states...depending how they voted. Is this uniting, or is this dividing.

It's really amazing how much influence a strong leader has during an emergency. Do you think Churchill was involved with detailed missions during WW2? He might not had any influence at that level, but his leadership from the top influenced people right down to the soldiers in the fox holes.

Now contrast that with slippery Trump where anything bad deflects off him right onto someone else and anything good stops right in his hands. Is that truly the type of leader you want leading the Divided States of America?

[Alan Klein]

And what the hell is Trump actually responsible for. Seems to me countries that dealt well with the virus had great leadership from the top...not throwing the mess down to individual states. After all the name of your country is UNITED States of America...who is there in charge that will unite these states. Trump loves to put a pitch fork between states...depending how they voted. Is this uniting, or is this dividing.

It's really amazing how much influence a strong leader has during an emergency. Do you think Churchill was involved with detailed missions during WW2? He might not had any influence at that level, but his leadership from the top influenced people right down to the soldiers in the fox holes.

Now contrast that with slippery Trump where anything bad deflects off him right onto someone else and anything good stops right in his hands. Is that truly the type of leader you want leading the Divided States of America?

All the 50 governors objected when Trump tried to control things according to a Federal plan.  They wanted individual control for their states, and frankly they were right.  But that's how America works.  We're a Federal republic.  Deciding when to open schools, bars, theaters, etc, is a local issue, a state and city issue.  It's shouldn't be controlled by a central government.  Other countries have control from the top and always have.  That's because they're use to royalty.  That's not the way it works in America.  You don't understand that. 

[hogloff]

All the 50 governors objected when Trump tried to control things according to a Federal plan.  They wanted individual control for their states, and frankly they were right.  But that's how America works.  We're a Federal republic.  Deciding when to open schools, bars, theaters, etc, is a local issue, a state and city issue.  It's shouldn't be controlled by a central government.  Other countries have control from the top and always have.  That's because they're use to royalty.  That's not the way it works in America.  You don't understand that.

So why doesn't Trump butt out then? Why did he encourage or egg on the protests to the lock downs...especially in democratic run states? Why does everything he do is based on being elected...only what's good for Trump.

One does not need to be in direct charge to have a major influence. This holds true on sports teams, in many companies and in many countries around the world. Why is the leader of your country so dead set to make everything us versus them? This virus is the biggest attack on America...yet Trump's leadership is missing...the only thing that ever comes out of his mouth is political...selfish. Hundreds of thousands of people will die from Covid...yet your commander in chief is totally a no show. Again Alan I ask why the hell do you support such a self centered lying person.

[Alan Klein]

So why doesn't Trump butt out then? Why did he encourage or egg on the protests to the lock downs...especially in democratic run states? Why does everything he do is based on being elected...only what's good for Trump.

One does not need to be in direct charge to have a major influence. This holds true on sports teams, in many companies and in many countries around the world. Why is the leader of your country so dead set to make everything us versus them? This virus is the biggest attack on America...yet Trump's leadership is missing...the only thing that ever comes out of his mouth is political...selfish. Hundreds of thousands of people will die from Covid...yet your commander in chief is totally a no show. Again Alan I ask why the hell do you support such a self centered lying person.

Why is it that everything Trump does is no good to you?  You oppose everything he does or says.   Could it be that this is election season and you're trying to damage Trump so he doesn't get re-elected?  OF course, Trump is doing things that presidents do before election day. Every president uses the power of their office to help themselves.   But so are the Democrats and his adversary doing everything to help them win.  You're deceiving yourself if you think this is a one-way street. 

Unfortunately, Covid 19 came during an election year.  Everyone knows that the economy and Covid are  going to play a huge part.  So Trump is doing everything to help the economy in particular, since he is identified with a dynamic American economy.  And the Democrats try to do everything to damage the economy  and make the virus look worse so Trump will get blamed.  And why is Biden lying about every policy he's ever believed in changing his position on everything?  What kind of scruples is that? Doesn't he have any belief system at all?   How can you support such a self centered lying person? 

OK, now that we've established that politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths, where would you like to go with that understanding?  If you don't understand what's going on, and can't read inbetween the lines, you really don't understand American politics or politics in general.   

[hogloff]

Why is it that everything Trump does is no good to you?  You oppose everything he does or says.   Could it be that this is election season and you're trying to damage Trump so he doesn't get re-elected?  OF course, Trump is doing things that presidents do before election day. Every president uses the power of their office to help themselves.   But so are the Democrats and his adversary doing everything to help them win.  You're deceiving yourself if you think this is a one-way street. 

Unfortunately, Covid 19 came during an election year.  Everyone knows that the economy and Covid are  going to play a huge part.  So Trump is doing everything to help the economy in particular, since he is identified with a dynamic American economy.  And the Democrats try to do everything to damage the economy  and make the virus look worse so Trump will get blamed.  And why is Biden lying about every policy he's ever believed in changing his position on everything?  What kind of scruples is that? Doesn't he have any belief system at all?   How can you support such a self centered lying person? 

OK, now that we've established that politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths, where would you like to go with that understanding?  If you don't understand what's going on, and can't read inbetween the lines, you really don't understand American politics or politics in general.

I just look at how the virus was handled here in Canada and contrast that with the US. We also have federal and provincial leaders...very much like you have with states. However out federal leader lead by example, self isolating ( not playing golf ) and wearing masks when away from his residence. He had daily briefings which never contradicted the medical community...but actually supported their directions. In my province, British Columbia, the person at the mike every day is the medical officer making the decisions without any politics. We've had a conservative premier ( say like a republican governor ) praise the job the federal government ( say democrats ) are doing supporting the common fight of the virus.

Contrast that with Trump. And look at where the two countries are at fighting this virus. Wonder why given America is richer, has more expertise in medical issues and more world wide influence...yet they struggle in chaos. Leadership or the lack of is why.

[LesPalenik]

I just look at how the virus was handled here in Canada and contrast that with the US. We also have federal and provincial leaders...very much like you have with states. However out federal leader lead by example, self isolating ( not playing golf ) and wearing masks when away from his residence. He had daily briefings which never contradicted the medical community...but actually supported their directions. In my province, British Columbia, the person at the mike every day is the medical officer making the decisions without any politics. We've had a conservative premier ( say like a republican governor ) praise the job the federal government ( say democrats ) are doing supporting the common fight of the virus.

Contrast that with Trump. And look at where the two countries are at fighting this virus. Wonder why given America is richer, has more expertise in medical issues and more world wide influence...yet they struggle in chaos. Leadership or the lack of is why.

There was recently an article (I think on CBC) that described this very situation. They mentioned that in Canada, all government levels (federal, provincial, municipal) are handling the situation in a professional and united way, whereas in US the situation between the president, 50 governors, city mayors, and medical advisors is very divided and it is handled in helter-skelter fashion.

A recent example shows that the Canadian tourist boat at Niagara Falls allows only 6 passenger per boat (out of 700 seats) whereas American boats operate at 50% capacity.
Personally, I think the limit of 6 people per boat is overdone, but if the passengers want to wait and pay for that attraction, that's their business. Definitely safer than having other tourists breath on you (and virus droplets mix up with the water mist).

https://globalnews.ca/news/7204228/niagara-falls-american-tourist-boat-coronavirus/

[Robert Roaldi]

Up till now, since I haven't been following in great detail, I had assumed that the presence of federal "agents" that Trump wanted in some cities was because of lingering public demonstrations that were tending to the violent. However, I can't say I've been seeing many headlines about such violence. Then I saw this article https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/508566-trump-announces-hes-sending-federal-agents-to-chicago which seems to state that Trump is simply sending in "agents" into "Democrat run" cities that have high crime.

Can anyone corroborate that is what's going on now, that it's not specifically "riot" related?

Is the guy actually sending in federal law enforcement into cities run by the opposing political party, which have NOT requested assistance from the feds? In fact, at least two of those mayors have asked him to NOT send them.  Is this for real, because it sounds like a bad movie plot.

[Alan Klein]

Canada deaths are 235/million and the USA is 441/million.  We've had 146,000 deaths out of 337 million  Canada has 8870  out of 37 million or 77,000 equivalent based on US population, about half.   Much better than us. But not that great.  How will the boat stay in business with 6 passengers out of 500 seats?  Are they buying the boat?   In any case, I'm not traveling until this thing is under control.  I never thought I'd say it's a young person's world.

[Alan Klein]

Up till now, since I haven't been following in great detail, I had assumed that the presence of federal "agents" that Trump wanted in some cities was because of lingering public demonstrations that were tending to the violent. However, I can't say I've been seeing many headlines about such violence. Then I saw this article https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/508566-trump-announces-hes-sending-federal-agents-to-chicago which seems to state that Trump is simply sending in "agents" into "Democrat run" cities that have high crime.

Can anyone corroborate that is what's going on now, that it's not specifically "riot" related?

Is the guy actually sending in federal law enforcement into cities run by the opposing political party, which have NOT requested assistance from the feds? In fact, at least two of those mayors have asked him to NOT send them.  Is this for real, because it sounds like a bad movie plot.

The argument is that Federal property is in danger of being attacked and burned down by rioters, not an impossibility when you consider what has happened with riots already.  The worry is that Democrat  controlled police departments will be told not protect these facilities to poke a finger in Trump's eye..  So Federal law enforcement is protecting these sites in cities where this might happen.  Of course, Trump is using this angle because of the upcoming election and Democrats are playing this up the opposite way such as Democrat Mayor De Blasio painting a Black Lives Matter sign on 5th Avenue in Manhattan in front of Trump Tower where President Trump lives and in the street near the White House..  It's political hijinks on both sides and will cool down after the election.

Here's the sign in front of Trump Tower.  Some opponents have poured black and blue paint over it so they had to fix it up twice already.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/06/25/nyregion/NYUNREST-TRUMPTOWER2/merlin_173629047_2f9731cc-28d1-4a06-8f21-93fa452b8d1c-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

[hogloff]

Up till now, since I haven't been following in great detail, I had assumed that the presence of federal "agents" that Trump wanted in some cities was because of lingering public demonstrations that were tending to the violent. However, I can't say I've been seeing many headlines about such violence. Then I saw this article https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/508566-trump-announces-hes-sending-federal-agents-to-chicago which seems to state that Trump is simply sending in "agents" into "Democrat run" cities that have high crime.

Can anyone corroborate that is what's going on now, that it's not specifically "riot" related?

Is the guy actually sending in federal law enforcement into cities run by the opposing political party, which have NOT requested assistance from the feds? In fact, at least two of those mayors have asked him to NOT send them.  Is this for real, because it sounds like a bad movie plot.

Yep...and we poopoo the heavy hands from communist countries.

[LesPalenik]

Canada deaths are 235/million and the USA is 441/million.  We've had 146,000 deaths out of 337 million  Canada has 8870  out of 37 million or 77,000 equivalent based on US population, about half.   Much better than us. But not that great.  How will the boat stay in business with 6 passengers out of 500 seats?  Are they buying the boat?   In any case, I'm not traveling until this thing is under control.  I never thought I'd say it's a young person's world.

Yes, 235 deaths per million is still a large number. There are other countries, like Finland, Hungary, or Austria which have only 60-80 deaths per million.
In Canada, most deaths occurred in the first stage of the outbreak, and 80% of those deaths were in long-term care homes. In Quebec, 90% of the deaths were in such facilities.
The current infections and fatalities are now much lower than in just a few months ago, despite reopening slowly the economy and other places. For example, today there were only 8 deaths in Canada vs 1205 in USA. In relative terms, the new deaths per million in Canada were less than 1% of the new deaths in USA.