PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[armand]

So you dont know the difference between a converse, inverse and contrapositive?  Not very reassuring, because vise versa could be either of those three.

Oh, now you try to be smart without knowing what you are talking about. Please educate yourself or do you want me to post here some google stuff?

In the end, by not addressing the subject at hand but throwing a distraction shows why I shouldn't bother responding to you.

[chez]

So you dont know the difference between a converse, inverse and contrapositive?  Not very reassuring, because vise versa could be either of those three. 

Really, be more specific, otherwise your statement has no weight.

Sorry...but everything just lost it "weight". Now to regular programming on Covid.

[JoeKitchen]

Oh, now you try to be smart without knowing what you are talking about. Please educate yourself or do you want me to post here some google stuff?

In the end, by not addressing the subject at hand but throwing a distraction shows why I shouldn't bother responding to you.

Im just looking for some clarity with what you are trying to say, because vise versa is pretty open ended.  As I said there are three versions.  If you can’t definitively express yourself, why should we listen?

[Alan Klein]

The news, the governors' remarks.   

It's all public.  You can look it up. 

He's watching CNN.

[chez]

He's watching CNN.

I'm watching The Three Stooges...much more intelligence compared to CNN and Fox combined. 

[JoeKitchen]

I'm watching The Three Stooges...much more intelligence compared to CNN and Fox combined.

Well, you got that half right. 

A good listen!

[chez]

Well, you got that half right. 

A good listen!

Nope...100% right. Both of those outlets are pure garbage as far as news goes. Now made for TV entertainment...yeh it might pass, but for non biased true reporting...I'll watch 3 stooges any day.

[BernardLanguillier]

Ummm, ... no. 

Trump allowed the system to work, aka federalism.  I said you are coming close to understanding it, but maybe you should hit the books again.  On top of that, he has not expanded the federal government, a real plus.  And all governors have been praising the responce of the federal government. 

Joe,

You lack honesty and objectivity... and fail to answer - I am sorry to say as usual - the main point of my post.

To help you understand...
- governors have been very critical of Trump's administration overall. Some were wise enough recently to focus on actions and to postpone the much needed conversation to a later stage. Which Trump used as boasting material instead of following their lead in trying to fix the issue
- when Trump accepts to publish his administration wise guidelines but destroys their credibility a few minutes later by Tweeting "liberate Michigan" he is undermining the authority of the States in deploying the guidance he issued himself. He is working against the resolution of the crisis. The same when he supports protests for accelerated reopening when the protesters obviously don't respect any form of social distancing.

This isn't related to how federalism works, it's related to the responsibility of the President as a leader. Anybody with a minimal experience of mgt knows that consistency of messaging is a core responsibility of a leader. Sometimes referred to as "walk the talk". With Trump even the talk is inconsistent from one minute to the next.

So I stick to my point, we have never seen such a level of mediocrity and incoherence in the history of the US Presidency. And this has very concrete consequences.

And please don't tell me that nobody listens to what the President says because that argument is idiotic beyond words.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Alan Klein]

Nope...100% right. Both of those outlets are pure garbage as far as news goes. Now made for TV entertainment...yeh it might pass, but for non biased true reporting...I'll watch 3 stooges any day.

Fox has numerous stations unlike CNN or MSNBC.  There's the Fox that carries Hannity that like CNN and MSNBC is talking heads and presents political viewpoints, conservative in the case of Fox and liberal in the case of MSNBC and CNN.  But there are also other Fox stations that present news in a much more journalistic way.  You will also see more liberal people presenting arguments on Fox than conservatives presenting arguments on CNN and MSNBC. 

[Alan Klein]

Joe,

You lack honesty and objectivity... and fail to answer - I am sorry to say as usual - the main point of my post.

To help you understand...
- governors have been very critical of Trump's administration overall. Some were wise enough recently to focus on actions and to postpone the much needed conversation to a later stage. Which Trump used as boasting material instead of following their lead in trying to fix the issue
- when Trump accepts to publish his administration wise guidelines but destroys their credibility a few minutes later by Tweeting "liberate Michigan" he is undermining the authority of the States in deploying the guidance he issued himself. He is working against the resolution of the crisis. The same when he supports protests for accelerated reopening when the protesters obviously don't respect any form of social distancing.

This isn't related to how federalism works, it's related to the responsibility of the President as a leader. Anybody with a minimal experience of mgt knows that consistency of messaging is a core responsibility of a leader. Sometimes referred to as "walk the talk". With Trump even the talk is inconsistent from one minute to the next.

So I stick to my point, we have never seen such a level of mediocrity and incoherence in the history of the US Presidency. And this has very concrete consequences.

And please don't tell me that nobody listens to what the President says because that argument is idiotic beyond words.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ask the Chinese if they don't understand Trump's position on trade and tariffs and stealing our trade secrets?  Ask the Canadians and Mexicans if they didn't understand his position on NAFTA?  Ask the Europeans in NATO if they didn't understand his position on the 2%?  Ask the Iranians if they don't understand his position on their need to forever give up their desire for nuclear weapons?  Ask Americans if they don't understand his position on the border wall and illegal immigration? 

More than most presidents I remember, Trump's position on most things haven't changed for decades, certainly he's kept his beliefs on the ones he campaigned on.  It's very clear to most Americans, that he wants to open up the American economy as soon as possible.    He's said it over and over and over again.   While he's left it to governors to make fine-tuning positions, he's prodding them constantly to err on the side of sooner rather than later. That's obvious to anyone who's been paying attention.

[armand]

Im just looking for some clarity with what you are trying to say, because vise versa is pretty open ended.  As I said there are three versions.  If you can’t definitively express yourself, why should we listen?

No, you're just trying to be a smartass.

The statement was quite clear: "but no more wisdom than you and I". I said viceversa is true also.

Vice versa is used most commonly (by far) like this: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vice%20versa
I also explained for you after, but apparently you didn't bother to read (the experts might not have more wisdom than you, but you might not have more wisdom than them either). The fact that you are claiming it's not clear means you are not interested in the the actual subject.


Be that as it may, your statement to which I said the vice versa is true also was: "but no more wisdom than you and I"
So what are your "converse, inverse and contrapositive" interpretations, just so we know you didn't just throw these terms around.

[chez]

Fox has numerous stations unlike CNN or MSNBC.  There's the Fox that carries Hannity that like CNN and MSNBC is talking heads and presents political viewpoints, conservative in the case of Fox and liberal in the case of MSNBC and CNN.  But there are also other Fox stations that present news in a much more journalistic way.  You will also see more liberal people presenting arguments on Fox than conservatives presenting arguments on CNN and MSNBC.

Any Fox News I ever watched is full of garbage. I traveled extensively for my job throughout the states and watched to one eyed tube...fox was consistently garbage news. Sorry...it's just the way it is.

[BernardLanguillier]

It's very clear to most Americans, that he wants to open up the American economy as soon as possible.    He's said it over and over and over again.   While he's left it to governors to make fine-tuning positions, he's prodding them constantly to err on the side of sooner rather than later. That's obvious to anyone who's been paying attention.

His generic position is indeed very clear. It all started with him doing everything he could to not close the country in the first place with the resulting tens of thousands of casualties we are now facing.

But today his position is defined - or shall I say is supposed to be defined - by the guidelines his administration has published (which seems to indicate he thinks he has a major responsibility as commander in chief). They are not saying "let's reopen as quickly as possible", they are saying "let's open responsibly where we can based on local situation".

I am glad to see you agree with me that he is totally incoherent when he broadcasts - mostly to his supporters - "liberate Michigan".

Cheers,
Bernard

[armand]

Romania makes millions from handing out coronavirus fines

https://www.foxnews.com/world/romania-millions-coronavirus-fines

(Emphasis mine)

Worry not, I doubt they will collect anywhere close to what they fined. But if you read the news most fined are not poor people looking for work, but assholes trying to go the parties and such.

[Alan Klein]

His generic position is indeed very clear. It all started with him doing everything he could to not close the country in the first place with the resulting tens of thousands of casualties we are now facing.

But today his position is defined - or shall I say is supposed to be defined - by the guidelines his administration has published (which seems to indicate he thinks he has a major responsibility as commander in chief). They are not saying "let's reopen as quickly as possible", they are saying "let's open responsibly where we can based on local situation".

I am glad to see you agree with me that he is totally incoherent when he broadcasts - mostly to his supporters - "liberate Michigan".

Cheers,
Bernard

It's not incoherent to Michiganers.  This is election season.  Trump needs Michigan to win the election.  If the governor screws up the economy of Michigan prior to the election, a likely event regardless of what she does, Trump will say that he told them that would happen.  Better yet, if Biden picks the Democrat governor as his VP running mate, a possibility at this point, Trump will be in an even stronger position to damage Biden's chance of winning Michigan and other nearby contested states. 

Your problem is you're not an American.  Trying to decipher our politics from 10,000 miles away isn't easy.  You ought to be more humble about it.  Maybe you should ask, why did Trump do this or do that rather than assuming he's incoherent because you don't understand.  Trump didn't become president because he's a dope. 

[armand]

...

Oh wait... he just did that 2 days ago when he tweeted « liberate Michigan » hours after his own administration outlined perfectly reasonable guidelines stating very clearly that a 2 weeks decrease of infections was needed to start reopening.

...

Cheers,
Bernard

That's just asinine. It's like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Talk about a consistent message.

[BernardLanguillier]

It's not incoherent to Michiganers.  This is election season.  Trump needs Michigan to win the election.  If the governor screws up the economy of Michigan prior to the election, a likely event regardless of what she does, Trump will say that he told them that would happen.  Better yet, if Biden picks the Democrat governor as his VP running mate, a possibility at this point, Trump will be in an even stronger position to damage Biden's chance of winning Michigan and other nearby contested states. 

Your problem is you're not an American.  Trying to decipher our politics from 10,000 miles away isn't easy.  You ought to be more humble about it.  Maybe you should ask, why did Trump do this or do that rather than assuming he's incoherent because you don't understand.  Trump didn't become president because he's a dope.

There is zero need to understand local politics to see incoherence.

When you say "A" and "non A" in the same sentence you are incoherent.

What you are trying to say is that Trump is pulled in opposite directions by the economic aspects vs public health aspects.

But this is a false debate because re-opening too quickly will hurt the economy more than re-opening at the right time (while causing un-needed casualties). Just like closing the economy way too late due to Trump's downplay of the situation, has hurt the economy more than it should have.

So Trump is indeed incoherent when he says at the same time "let's reopen today - let's liberate Michigan" and "let's reopen in a responsible way following his administration guidelines".

Cheers,
Bernard

[Alan Klein]

There is zero need to understand local politics to see incoherence.

When you say "A" and "non A" in the same sentence you are incoherent.

What you are trying to say is that Trump is pulled in opposite directions by the economic aspects vs public health aspects.

But this is a false debate because re-opening too quickly will hurt the economy more than re-opening at the right time (while causing un-needed casualties). Just like closing the economy way too late due to Trump's downplay of the situation, has hurt the economy more than it should have.

So Trump is indeed incoherent when he says at the same time "let's reopen today - let's liberate Michigan" and "let's reopen in a responsible way following his administration guidelines".

Cheers,
Bernard

The president, any president is in a very difficult situation.  All choices stink.  He has to balance the damage to people due to the virus against the damage to the people due to economic failure.  It's pretty much damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Add to that is that there are no similar situations he can draw on from the past.  How do you judge the virus?  Yes, it's bad, but not really too worse than the annual flu.  The economy is in shambles.  Failing.  How many will be hurt and die because of that?  He's not the only one caught in this quandary.  The governors are really faced with the same difficult choice.  Oh sure, some want to start up the economy later some earlier.  But they all know they have to restart it soon in their states and when they do, there are no guarantees the virus won't come back with a vengeance.  For a change, the governors are going to earn their keep.  We're going to see some real leadership before this is over.  The winners will be running for president in 2024.

Which raises an interesting point.  Biden was never a governor. He was a senator.  He voted on legislation. He never ran anything. I wonder how much people will be thinking of that when they vote in November?   Whether you like Trump or not, no one can accuse him of lacking authority and leadership. 

[BernardLanguillier]

Whether you like Trump or not, no one can accuse him of lacking authority and leadership.

Authority is an absolute quality and I agree that Trump has plenty of that.

Leadership I would strongly disagree with. Leadership is not about screaming louder it's about showing the way to people so that they follow your vision and make it their own. A leader unites.

Trump is the exact opposite of a great leader. He devises and has only negative values to propose: Isolation, conflict, denigration,... he is not going anywhere, he is just running away from things.

He is running away from the reality of the pandemic, he is running away from his responsibilities, he is running away from the sound principles of the Republican Party,... the list is pretty much infinite.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Alan Klein]

Authority is an absolute quality and I agree that Trump has plenty of that.

Leadership I would strongly disagree with. Leadership is not about screaming louder it's about showing the way to people so that they follow your vision and make it their own. A leader unites.

Trump is the exact opposite of a great leader. He devises and has only negative values to propose: Isolation, conflict, denigration,... he is not going anywhere, he is just running away from things.

He is running away from the reality of the pandemic, he is running away from his responsibilities, he is running away from the sound principles of the Republican Party,... the list is pretty much infinite.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well, I will say this.  He never was a Republican.  He believes in debt, runs his life and business on debt, and now has indebted the American people to another $5-6 trillion on top of the $1 trillion before the virus just this year.  Problem is, none of the republicans in Congress are republicans any more.  They all joined the Democrats and are all camped in the Sanders party.  By the time the printing presses run out of green ink, there won't be enough cheese left for a mouse to get a tooth in.