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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 503151 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #520 on: April 11, 2020, 07:09:01 am »

[...]
So, how much time did Trump supposedly squander again?

To give you an idea:
The Trump administration’s botched coronavirus response, explained
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/14/21177509/coronavirus-trump-covid-19-pandemic-response

The article is more than a week old by now, so there may be more ...
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #521 on: April 11, 2020, 07:37:26 am »

Getting back to John Camp's advertising points, here is an interesting article.

MIKE BLOOMBERG’S FIRM THAT RAN HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IS BIDDING TO TAKE OVER JOE BIDEN’S

Now the question is, is this a plus for Biden?  Maybe, maybe not. 

I thought Bloomberg's advertising was very good.  However, nothing can kill a bad product faster then great advertising, just ask Mike Bloomberg.  When the product does not match up anywhere near the expectations put forth by the marketing, things tend to go downhill pretty fast.  So the question is, is Biden as good as the advertising these guys would provide?  I think we all know the answer to that question. 

Second, Bernie Bros I know (which is how I saw this) are already using this as an excuse to not vote for Joe Biden, since it "shows" he is selling out to Billionaires.  Of course, I think this is unfounded, but hey, we're talking about Bernie Bros here.

Like I wrote before, at the end of the day I think Bernie is going to screw over Biden by pushing him too far left.  Bernie is going to hang his endorsement over Biden's head and lead him astray.  Throw that in with Biden's current mental/physical state and ...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 07:41:22 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #522 on: April 11, 2020, 08:02:41 am »

Bart, I know you've been away.  But some of us after 27 pages of pointing finger at each other would like to move on to explore future medical and economic measures rather than focusing on rehashing past actions, good or bad. 

What do you think is going to happen to the world's economies, when should we start doing things differently, and how do you think medical issues regarding the disease will develop in the future?  Timetables? Political effect? 

elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #523 on: April 11, 2020, 08:10:48 am »

Bernie is going to screw over Biden by pushing him too far left.

The virus has pushed us all to the left. It has exposed the flaws of neoliberal capitalism. Big government is back.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #524 on: April 11, 2020, 08:16:02 am »

Getting back to John Camp's advertising points, here is an interesting article.

MIKE BLOOMBERG’S FIRM THAT RAN HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IS BIDDING TO TAKE OVER JOE BIDEN’S

Now the question is, is this a plus for Biden?  Maybe, maybe not. 

I thought Bloomberg's advertising was very good.  However, nothing can kill a bad product faster then great advertising, just ask Mike Bloomberg.  When the product does not match up anywhere near the expectations put forth by the marketing, things tend to go downhill pretty fast.  So the question is, is Biden as good as the advertising these guys would provide?  I think we all know the answer to that question. 

Second, Bernie Bros I know (which is how I saw this) are already using this as an excuse to not vote for Joe Biden, since it "shows" he is selling out to Billionaires.  Of course, I think this is unfounded, but hey, we're talking about Bernie Bros here.

Like I wrote before, at the end of the day I think Bernie is going to screw over Biden by pushing him too far left.  Bernie is going to hang his endorsement over Biden's head and lead him astray.  Throw that in with Biden's current mental/physical state and ...
Bernie's already won.  The government is re-distributing the entire wealth of this country.  The government is getting involved in everything. 96-0 Senate vote.  Trump on board, republicans on board. There's not a dimes worth of difference between the Democrats and Republicans.  Bailout of states, companies, people, small businesses, printing presses going 24 hours a day.  The government's going to bail out everyone and pay for everything.

I'm ordering stuff online and everything is 2x+  normal prices  This is what inflation is going to look like even when we get back to "normal".  No one's going to be able to afford eating out like they did.  The Chinese are now #1 economically because they manufacture and we don't.  Of course without us buying, they'll have problems too. Service jobs are over.  Everything Trump said about losing our manufacturing is true but no one's talking about it now because of the election.  They'd have to admit he was right about tariffs. 

We will have to re-trench around the world militarily.  Europe will be on its own to face Russia.  Spending on defence with crater.  So will stocks, home values and everything else.

Gee  I hope I'm wrong and Trump is right that we'll come back "quickly".  But that's just his positive marketing before the election, I'm afraid.   

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #525 on: April 11, 2020, 08:21:22 am »

The virus has pushed us all to the left. It has exposed the flaws of neoliberal capitalism. Big government is back.
Elliot, It never went away.

elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #526 on: April 11, 2020, 08:58:56 am »

Elliot, It never went away.

Well, it's all relative. Government has certainly just got a whole lot bigger. As you say, Bernie has already won.

Personally, I attribute the rapid escalation of the virus is the US and the UK (the two countries that were supposedly best-prepared for a global pandemic) to the laissez-faire, anti-government, free-market ideology that you hold so dear.

Our governments were emaciated and thus incapable of decisive action in the face of the virus. In the future we will need bigger and better government.

But perhaps you have a market solution to a global pandemic?
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elliot_n

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #527 on: April 11, 2020, 09:06:07 am »

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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #528 on: April 11, 2020, 09:14:54 am »

Sorry, late to react, and I've not yet read all followup posts, I had more useful things to do.

Thank you, but I prefer more factual sources with good reputation in the scientific world like:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

And what's easy to forget (or deliberately glance over), is that this is an additional number of deaths on top of those from other causes.
And there is an exponential growth going on that will continue for some time to come. People get ill, some of those get worse, some of those get hospitalized, some of those will die.

BTW, you forgot to mention the number gun fatalities in the USA.

The Hopkins site only deals with the virus, Worldmeter is more inclusive.  But none of that really matters since the site I posted was simply imformative and like I said you can take it as you will.

Lets also remember that the largest segment of gun deaths in the US are suicide.  We all know that no one could klli themselves without a gun [/sarcasm]
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #529 on: April 11, 2020, 09:17:15 am »

To give you an idea:
The Trump administration’s botched coronavirus response, explained
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/14/21177509/coronavirus-trump-covid-19-pandemic-response

The article is more than a week old by now, so there may be more ...

Oh yea I've read the hindsight hit job articles too, oh so easy to say when you are not sitting in the hot seat. 

You do realize, don't you, that the main point, the removal of the pandemic group in the NSC, did not remove the othere agencies and groups who also provide pandemic planning.  It's a specious argument at best.  And its being played like there was no planning done at all.  Do you imaging, that what ever work was done by this group, was discarded? Or if hter ever was any real work generated?  The group was put togetehr by Obama in the last couple of years of his presidency, after HE disbanded a similar group put together by Bush in the early years of the Obama term. Its also good to remember that this was a WHITE HOUSE group, not a national group. 

added on edit:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-trump-fired-pandemic-team/partly-false-claim-trump-fired-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 09:40:05 am by Craig Lamson »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #530 on: April 11, 2020, 09:17:21 am »

Bernie's already won. The government is re-distributing the entire wealth of this country.  The government is getting involved in everything. 96-0 Senate vote.  Trump on board, republicans on board. There's not a dimes worth of difference between the Democrats and Republicans.  Bailout of states, companies, people, small businesses, printing presses going 24 hours a day.  The government's going to bail out everyone and pay for everything.

I'm ordering stuff online and everything is 2x+  normal prices  This is what inflation is going to look like even when we get back to "normal".  No one's going to be able to afford eating out like they did.  The Chinese are now #1 economically because they manufacture and we don't.  Of course without us buying, they'll have problems too. Service jobs are over.  Everything Trump said about losing our manufacturing is true but no one's talking about it now because of the election.  They'd have to admit he was right about tariffs. 

We will have to re-trench around the world militarily.  Europe will be on its own to face Russia.  Spending on defence with crater.  So will stocks, home values and everything else.

Gee  I hope I'm wrong and Trump is right that we'll come back "quickly".  But that's just his positive marketing before the election, I'm afraid.   

No he has not.  First, this is a national emergency and policies need to be different.  Second, the 5th amendment protects us from government use of our businesses without compensation.  Government has shut down our businesses and owes us compensation for it. 

I also doubt we will be seeing big government, especially with Trump in office.  Trump is refusing all temptations to increase government size and take over business, which is a good thing.  Not to mention the free market is really shining here.  This pandemic is showing the world that we have the best healthcare system to handle this even though it is free market based. 

Just like Biden pointed out with Italy, socialized healthcare does not make things better. 

But anyway, I think both Bernie and the intersectional left are going to destroy Biden.  Biden may be considering Harris as his VP.  There is no reason to pick a looser like her for VP, especially over Klobuchar, who is probably the best pick when looking at everyone, other then checking the black box as well.  And we know that if Klobuchar is picked, there will be plenty of people on left say, "yes, she's a woman, but she's a white woman.  What's wrong with picking a black woman?"  So Harris has a chance just due to this. 

If Biden had any balls and was smart, he would tell them and Bernie to screw off.  He's won already, does not need their endorsement anymore, and should start moving back to the center.  I have little faith he is smart enough to make this call though. 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 09:22:17 am by JoeKitchen »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #531 on: April 11, 2020, 09:27:06 am »

The virus has pushed us all to the left. It has exposed the flaws of neoliberal capitalism. Big government is back.

You forget the [sarcasm] tags.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #532 on: April 11, 2020, 09:32:11 am »

Cute short video about social distancing using table tennis balls and mousetraps, must have been fun to make, https://youtu.be/wJ2NMD3VWio.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #533 on: April 11, 2020, 09:41:43 am »

Cute short video about social distancing using table tennis balls and mousetraps, must have been fun to make, https://youtu.be/wJ2NMD3VWio.

That was very well done and creative to boot.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #534 on: April 11, 2020, 10:33:55 am »

Bart, I know you've been away.  But some of us after 27 pages of pointing finger at each other would like to move on to explore future medical and economic measures rather than focusing on rehashing past actions, good or bad. 

What do you think is going to happen to the world's economies, when should we start doing things differently, and how do you think medical issues regarding the disease will develop in the future?  Timetables? Political effect?

The exploration of medical measures is something for another thread, IMHO.

Timetables, depends on which country. In my country, we expect at least 3 months before some return to normality, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes till February 2021, when a vaccination becomes available in larger quantities.

Political effect, depends on country.
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PeterAit

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #535 on: April 11, 2020, 10:49:22 am »


Do you imaging, that what ever work was done by this group, was discarded? Or if hter ever was any real work generated? 


Actually, yes and yes. The group created a detailed pandemic response plan. The Trump administration ignored it.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #536 on: April 11, 2020, 11:17:02 am »

Actually, yes and yes. The group created a detailed pandemic response plan. The Trump administration ignored it.

Great why don't you provide the link to the plan , which you must have read to reach this conclusion, so we can all read it and see it your conclusions are accurate.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #537 on: April 11, 2020, 12:29:26 pm »

Great why don't you provide the link to the plan , which you must have read to reach this conclusion, so we can all read it and see it your conclusions are accurate.
The 69 page plan is embedded in the story.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #538 on: April 11, 2020, 12:33:46 pm »

The 69 page plan is embedded in the story.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285

Yes, I've read it.  The MONEY quote from the Politico article.

An NSC official confirmed the existence of the playbook but dismissed its value. “We are aware of the document, although it’s quite dated and has been superseded by strategic and operational biodefense policies published since,” the official said. “The plan we are executing now is a better fit, more detailed, and applies the relevant lessons learned from the playbook and the most recent Ebola epidemic in the [Democratic Republic of the Congo] to COVID-19.”

A health department spokesperson also said that the NSC playbook was not part of the current coronavirus strategy. “The HHS COVID-19 response was informed by more recent plans such as the foundation of the National Biodefense Strategy (2018), Biological Incident Annex (2017),and panCAP (2018) among other key plans provided by the CDC, White House Task Force, FEMA, and other key federal departments and agencies,” the spokesperson said.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #539 on: April 11, 2020, 12:50:54 pm »

Interesting 9-minute podcast from NPR's Indicator program about why hospitals are currently laying off staff, https://www.npr.org/2020/04/09/831397897/why-hospitals-are-laying-people-off.
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