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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 495100 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5080 on: May 28, 2020, 09:52:58 am »

I was reviewing the numbers earlier today and it’s rather striking to see that the 3 countries whose leaders downplayed the reality of the virus (US, UK and Brazil) are the 3 countries with still the highest number of daily covid19 casualties as we speak.
 
Three populist leaders with similar disdain for science and an overall belief that they are above reality.

Three countries with perhaps the worst economic impacts.

It seems clear by now that starting to take measures late is the cause of all evils. As is demonstrated by the Denmark/Sweden comparison. If the pandemic is allowed to spread then there is no escaping economic impacts.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5081 on: May 28, 2020, 10:04:06 am »

Indeed. I remember posting several weeks ago on how about Brazil would be a disaster. Here in Portugal, there is a large Brazilian community, and they were, and are still, scared to go back to their country with a lunatic at the helm.

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5082 on: May 28, 2020, 10:40:47 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1toAVH8A01U

For those who understand French, a very interesting interview from Dr. Raoult, the French specialist who has had good results with Chloriquine.

He brings to the table interesting doubts about the credibility of the recent article by the Lancet. He wonders whether their article isn't motivated by anti-Trump politics. I would agree that there is serious doubt on this.

Not that this doesn't change my view that Trump didn't act presidentially when he promoted the usage of a drug about which there is still widespread discussion.

The comments were remarkable. Listeners thanking and praising Bercoff and Raoult. Not the same rabid partisan political comments you see in the US.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 12:22:16 pm by faberryman »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5083 on: May 28, 2020, 12:35:19 pm »

He points out some oddities in the lancet article, including the lack of clear data source and very strange similarities of population typologies across continents that I have to agree are suspicious....

This is what my professor (of Economics, but versed in analyzing medical papers from a methodological and statistical point of view) said:

Quote
Serious questions raised about the hydroxychloroquine study in the Lancet. One allegation is that the dataset is suspect (one author is CEO of the company selling such data). Notably, summary statistics seem surprisingly consistent across regions. Here is an ongoing open attempt at post-publication peer review: https://pubpeer.com/publications/71DA593B9943638F1ADE6F80696914#1

There is also this article:

This controversial hydroxychloroquine paper: What’s Lancet gonna do about it?

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/05/25/this-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-paper-whats-lancet-gonna-do-about-it/?fbclid=IwAR3Dmj0mea_5iS1t4cBsCqL83nueSUjHQY-AgPelk-bANiiv4UoPhayKl5w

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5084 on: May 28, 2020, 12:36:06 pm »

Dr. Raoult's results weren't all that good, as people pointed out at the time he released his results. In fact, they really couldn't be distinguished from normal recovery results.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 05:30:45 pm by John Camp »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5085 on: May 28, 2020, 12:39:50 pm »

Dr. Raoult's results weren't all the good, as people pointed out at the time he released his results. In fact, they really couldn't be distinguished from normal recovery results.

Exactly, without a double blind comparison one cannot distinguish between a working cure and natural recovery.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5086 on: May 28, 2020, 12:51:03 pm »

This is what my professor (of Economics, but versed in analyzing medical papers from a methodological and statistical point of view) said:

There is also this article:

This controversial hydroxychloroquine paper: What’s Lancet gonna do about it?

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/05/25/this-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-paper-whats-lancet-gonna-do-about-it/?fbclid=IwAR3Dmj0mea_5iS1t4cBsCqL83nueSUjHQY-AgPelk-bANiiv4UoPhayKl5w
The author of that article admits that he hasn't actually read the Lancet article in detail.

"I have not read the article in detail so I’m not quite sure what to make of the criticisms..."
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 02:39:07 pm by faberryman »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5087 on: May 28, 2020, 04:28:16 pm »

Exactly, without a double blind comparison one cannot distinguish between a working cure and natural recovery.

One key point where their result differ very much from the Lancet is the ratio of death due to cardiac issues, which is a key argument against Chloriquine (agaîn, administred in a controlled clinical environment and removing patients with known cardiac issues) and a key contributor to their conclusion that the Chloriquine is worse than no medecine at all.

Raoult had 0% of cardiac issues vs 8% in the Lancet report.

It seems very plausible that the doses administered and the timing relative to the appearance of symptoms plays an important role but these information appear to be missing from the Lancet article.

Finally if the only acceptable source of knowledge is double blind tests then the Lancet article should also not be considered because it most definitely isn’t the result of a double blind test.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 07:09:39 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5088 on: May 28, 2020, 07:38:35 pm »

Hey, what happened to Alan from New Jersey? He get writer's block out something? I worry.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5089 on: May 28, 2020, 08:02:33 pm »

Hey, what happened to Alan from New Jersey? He get writer's block out something? I worry.
I believe he is doing time for repeatedly posting political stuff in the no politics thread.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5090 on: May 28, 2020, 08:59:53 pm »

Looking forward to the pretzels Trumpers will tie themselves into brushing this off.

Rather than tie themselves into pretzels, they seem to have bailed.
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5091 on: May 28, 2020, 09:44:14 pm »

Rather than tie themselves into pretzels, they seem to have bailed.

In al fairness, it's really tough call. Their fellow-travelers have spent the last several years insisting that corporations have the inherent right to say what they want, as loud as they want.  To serve who they want, when they want, and to discriminate with regard to providing these services for any reason, or totally without a reason. The right for "opinion" commentators on the most widely viewed cable television network to call President Obama a muslim terrorist sympathizer, and for the right to publicly muse about the possibility that Hillary Clinton was secretly running a child porn ring from a DC pizza parlor, or, I guess, that a former representative might have murdered a random woman.  And for the idea that this all fine because Adam Smith’s hand will swoop in and determine right and wrong without the need for onerous governmental regulation.  But noting that Donald Trump might be lying? Well, apparently THAT unconscionable idea - that's just a step too far, huh?   ;D 

About the only consistency I see here is that they are continuing the plaintive wailing about how conservatives are the real victims, but hey, we're against protected classes around here, so, too bad I guess.  If they don't like it, I guess they should go back to where they came from  ;)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:13:59 pm by James Clark »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5092 on: May 28, 2020, 10:22:20 pm »

This report says that Trump would like to get rid of his Twitter account, https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/500025-trump-says-hed-love-to-get-rid-of-my-whole-twitter-account. A lot of people would agree with him.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5093 on: May 29, 2020, 04:53:51 am »

Rather than tie themselves into pretzels, they seem to have bailed.

I responded directly.

EDIT: Craig as well.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 06:45:25 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5094 on: May 29, 2020, 04:58:11 am »

In al fairness, it's really tough call....

Nice strawman, James. Playing to the home crowd?

William Walker

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5095 on: May 29, 2020, 06:37:16 am »

Rather than tie themselves into pretzels, they seem to have bailed.
This seems to explain a lot. (Bold and Italics by me.)

"In The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt wrote that:
 'Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow.”

The masters of this sort of propaganda understood that they could change their stories with impunity, because the people would see their deceptions as a form of their multi-dimensional genius.

The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness." - Charlie Sykes - The Bulwark.

https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/rush-limbaughs-legacy-is-complete/
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5096 on: May 29, 2020, 06:44:37 am »

This seems to explain a lot...

Why are you continuing this charade? Who bailed? Both Craig and I responded.

jeremyrh

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5097 on: May 29, 2020, 06:49:40 am »

“One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.” 

This is totally taken out of context and it’s simply not the whole truth.  Fake news...Propaganda.  If the author is willing to shade the truth on something as easily checked as this, dare we dive into the rest?  ( and yes there is more, starting here pretty much destroys the entire article.)

Watch the entire tape of Trumps entire comments on this subject from Feb 28.   

Then get back to us.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-meeting-african-american-leaders/


Cabinet Room

February 27, 2020
5:22 P.M. EST

And you know what?  If we were doing a bad job, we should also be criticized.  But we have done an incredible job.  We’re going to continue.  It’s going to disappear.  One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.  And from our shores, we — you know, it could get worse before it gets better.  It could maybe go away.  We’ll see what happens.  Nobody really knows.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5098 on: May 29, 2020, 07:05:47 am »

... One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear...

I can tell you from my personal experience (and this is not a defense of Trump) that it indeed disappeared on the 15th day. I was still coughing on the 14th day, tired, etc., and on the 15th, it just stopped and I felt normal again. I was surprised how sudden the change was. Like a miracle.

kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #5099 on: May 29, 2020, 08:38:28 am »

I can tell you from my personal experience (and this is not a defense of Trump) that it indeed disappeared on the 15th day. I was still coughing on the 14th day, tired, etc., and on the 15th, it just stopped and I felt normal again. I was surprised how sudden the change was. Like a miracle.
You are lucky; others are not.
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