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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 495000 times)

James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4200 on: May 12, 2020, 10:24:15 am »

Don't hold back man, tell us how you really feel  :)

If it makes you feel better, I'd also happily stipulate to the fact that Bill Clinton is a weasel and a half.  :)
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4201 on: May 12, 2020, 10:25:01 am »

What does that have to do with, "Why didn't Congress subpoena former presidents' tax returns?"

How's the situation different to the extent that it would immunize a sitting president from investigations arising from conduct as a private citizen, or would override the law that says tax returns "...shall be furnished upon request by [an authroized requestor]..."

I think the phrase that's needed here is 'probable cause".
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4202 on: May 12, 2020, 10:25:26 am »

If it makes you feel better, I'd also happily stipulate to the fact that Bill Clinton is a weasel and a half.  :)

What about Obama?
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4203 on: May 12, 2020, 10:30:28 am »

What about Obama?

I'd put him at about average as far as presidential slipperiness goes, on aggregate, with a couple of areas that I found unacceptable.  I had serious enough problems with his administration's loose interpretations of American citizens as "enemy combatants," and his attempts to prosecute members of the press that that I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 10:33:54 am by James Clark »
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4204 on: May 12, 2020, 10:33:29 am »

I think the phrase that's needed here is 'probable cause".

Courts at every level (except USSC), and of course the prosecutors that initially brought the case, apparently agree that exists.  As for the Congressional request, "probably cause" is at the discretion of the needs of the legislature.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4205 on: May 12, 2020, 10:36:31 am »

Courts at every level (except USSC), and of course the prosecutors that initially brought the case, apparently agree that exists.  As for the Congressional request, "probably cause" is at the discretion of the needs of the legislature.

I guess it really remains to be seen if that "agreement" withstands the highest court in the land. Its not all that uncommon for the USSC to reverse a lower court or prosecutor.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4206 on: May 12, 2020, 10:37:36 am »

I'd put him at about average as far as presidential slipperiness goes, on aggregate, with a couple of areas that I found unacceptable.  I had serious enough problems with his administration's loose interpretations of American citizens as "enemy combatants," and his attempts to prosecute members of the press that that I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012.

Fair enough.
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4207 on: May 12, 2020, 10:43:54 am »

I guess it really remains to be seen if that "agreement" withstands the highest court in the land. Its not all that uncommon for the USSC to reverse a lower court or prosecutor.

Word going around is that Trump's lawyers intend to argue that the President is exempt from investigation from any body, anywhere, for any reason.  That should bother you.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4208 on: May 12, 2020, 10:44:34 am »

er... because for the last 40 years the former president(s) released theirs voluntarily, as have all the serious candidates IIRC.  Beyond that, said former presidents also divested themselves of their holdings that might create conflicts of interest.

Trump's a lying piece of garbage who doubtlessly has scores of conflicts that we ought to know about, and there's no doubt that the Democrats want to use this against him, but that doesn't mean it's not a real and actionable problem.

Plus, as Manoli said, this has already been litigated with little room for a new opinion this time around.  If the decision is anything other than "Donald, open the books. Now." you'll know the fix is in.
Those Presidents released their tax returns before the elections.  If Congress is legislating about these things, they need to see the tax records of presidents while they served in office and afterwards.  What if a president was using his office and deciding things that show up in extra earnings for himself during or after his terms in office?  That would have great impact on deciding congressional legislation.  Why don't they subpoena Obamas, Bush's etc?  The fact is this is just a fishing expedition.  And the law protects all Americans including the president from having to release their tax returns, especially a sitting president who has more important things to do for the country then letting the opposition party rummage through his personal tax returns for political gain.  You wouldn't want Republicans doing that to Obama's, nor should they.

Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4209 on: May 12, 2020, 10:48:50 am »

Word going around is that Trump's lawyers intend to argue that the President is exempt from investigation from any body, anywhere, for any reason.  That should bother you.

They can argue anything they want, that does not bother me at all.  Either it stands or it not.  Then, depending on what side of the issue you take, its time to be bothered.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4210 on: May 12, 2020, 10:49:10 am »

I'm glad for your sister in law. Others were not so lucky. For many patients, it's not only a 3-6 months delay, but the backlog of 200,000 postponed surgeries may take up to 2 years to clear.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cancer-covid19-1.5512599
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-hospitals-postpone-surgeries-treatments-to-make-space-for-potential/
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/he-never-got-a-chance-b-c-man-dies-after-surgery-cancelled-due-to-covid-19-1.4923097
I feel bad for these people.  My sister lived five years with lung cancer because of chemotherapy.  90% of lung cancer patients live about a year.  So she was very lucky. But she never would have lived if she couldn't have gotten the chemo. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4211 on: May 12, 2020, 10:52:53 am »

I really hope the fix isn't in. I' really afraid that  it is.
What fix?  Do you think one or more of the nine justices are getting paid off?  That's why the constitution gives them a life time job.  They can't be fired nor their salaries diminished.

Rob C

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4212 on: May 12, 2020, 10:53:08 am »

If it makes you feel better, I'd also happily stipulate to the fact that Bill Clinton is a weasel and a half.  :)

Goodness! I didn't know Monica was a biter-right-offer! I bet Mrs C was grateful for the new-found peace and tranquility.

;-)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4213 on: May 12, 2020, 11:03:30 am »

Courts at every level (except USSC), and of course the prosecutors that initially brought the case, apparently agree that exists.  As for the Congressional request, "probably cause" is at the discretion of the needs of the legislature.
Congress had the opportunity to check Trump's tax records and charge him with violations during their impeachment hearings.  That's when they had the most constitutional authority to do so.  The president was found innocent.  They can't go back now for another bite of the apple. 

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4214 on: May 12, 2020, 11:04:24 am »

Yes, we are doing so much better in avoiding unnecessary* deaths:

Economic devastation from coronavirus could eventually kill more than virus, report says

https://www.foxnews.com/world/economic-devastation-from-coronavirus-could-eventually-kill-more-than-virus-report-says

* deaths from the Chinese virus are natural, thus necessary... deaths and ruined lives caused by crashing the world economy are truly UNnecessary

There are two sides to this problem: health and economic impacts. Governments and/or regimes that abide to a civilized set of values should take care of both. How? Lockdown to avoid unnecessary deaths, concurrent with economic/financing measures to mitigate those who lost their jobs. In Portugal, which is far from being a rich country, we will be able to do that.

Of course, according to you, perhaps people should also stop being treated and protected from other diseases, which being natural, cause natural deaths.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4215 on: May 12, 2020, 11:10:36 am »

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/08/health/coronavirus-deaths-of-despair/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1mgVLe5eRjUDg-N7osezfkmYEp6aSijImVIEVZlDYAHGW6_w6eCXKpXxU

75,000 Americans at risk of dying from overdose or suicide due to coronavirus despair

Again, even in lowly Portugal, the NHS has implemented measures to deal with depression, including dedicated consultation via phone or face to face. Even in the article you mention, it says that such mitigations need to be implemented - which raises the question of why are they not in place yet?

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4216 on: May 12, 2020, 11:15:22 am »

Good point, and the roads are now clear for faster driving.
A couple of days ago, a young Ontario driver in his mother's Mercedes was clocked at over 300kmh.

But tell that to the guy whose chemotherapy was postponed by 3-6 months.

Well, if someones chemo or similar such critical treament was postponed, that is bad, and talks about a health service not being prepared. In Portugal, emergency tretaments like that were not postponed. We had a reduction in consultations in several areas because people were afraid to go to hospitals in case they caught the virus.

One of the main reasons for lockdown (which was never complete in our case) was to avoid flooding the hospitals and ICU with C-19 patients, in order to be able to maintain some normalcy in treating other diseases that are also urgent. My brother in law is being treated for leuchemia and nothing got delayed.

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4217 on: May 12, 2020, 11:16:54 am »

There are two sides to this problem: health and economic impacts. Governments and/or regimes that abide to a civilized set of values should take care of both. How? Lockdown to avoid unnecessary deaths, concurrent with economic/financing measures to mitigate those who lost their jobs. In Portugal, which is far from being a rich country, we will be able to do that.

Of course, according to you, perhaps people should also stop being treated and protected from other diseases, which being natural, cause natural deaths.
But we have no road map for the current situation.  We're all driving blind.  Who's to say which method is the best.  We won't know that until next year, maybe later. Then and only then will be be able to compare the various methods taken to see who made out the best.  Even then, there will be tradeoffs.  A lot depends where you stand. For someone like myself who's retired and old and worried about infections, then I side with greater isolation and shutdown.  After all, I'm still going to get my pensions and Social Security. (well, maybe not.) But for the young guy who has to feed his family, he's willing to take a shot getting sick because he realizes he's going to be in terrible straits if he can't work and put food on the table.

You're also assuming economies will recover.  Well, I have news for you.  They won't. The US, Spain and others are about to absorb a huge hit.  Printing money is a short term solution that will gain about a month or two but just add more debt that will have to be paid back next year like your charge cards.  Many economies will go into the toilet.  I was thinking just now of the Carribean Island economies that rely on tourist and cruise boats.  What are they eating?  What are Portuguese taxi drivers doing who use to wait at airports for new fares?  What are they eating nowadays?

William Walker

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4218 on: May 12, 2020, 11:32:43 am »

Gotchu, lol. 

Well as you pointed yesterday, there are no C-19 experts in the world, but plenty of golf experts.

Just to clear that up, no-one in the world knows everything there is to know about it...yet.

There are, however, many scientists who know a lot about similar viruses, and who have learned, in this short time, a helleva lot about this particular one. We certainly should be taking careful note of what they are saying....

As they say, "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
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JoeKitchen

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #4219 on: May 12, 2020, 11:48:02 am »

er... because for the last 40 years the former president(s) released theirs voluntarily, as have all the serious candidates IIRC.  Beyond that, said former presidents also divested themselves of their holdings that might create conflicts of interest.

Trump's a lying piece of garbage who doubtlessly has scores of conflicts that we ought to know about, and there's no doubt that the Democrats want to use this against him, but that doesn't mean it's not a real and actionable problem.

Plus, as Manoli said, this has already been litigated with little room for a new opinion this time around.  If the decision is anything other than "Donald, open the books. Now." you'll know the fix is in.

I tell you what, I will be in favor of forcing Trumps to release his tax returns if you are in favor of forcing Biden to release all of his records at the University of Delaware. 

I am sure there are plenty of juicy details in both and afterwards, we can just let the chips fall where they might. 
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