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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 221986 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1460 on: August 04, 2019, 12:36:16 pm »

We could start by doing something about the ~5% that are mass killings. There is no reason to allow military style assault rifles.
AR15's and similar rifles are not military assault rifles.  The "style" part is that they look like a military weapon.  But they are not machine guns like their military issued ones are that are used by the army.  I fired an M16 military version in the USAF.  I also fired it's civilian equivalent the AR-15.  The civilian equivalent has no automatic setting as that would be illegal  The civilian version does have a similar 15 or 20 round standard magazine.  But many states have already reduced the legal limit to 10 rounds.  None of these things will change mass killings much.  But certainly, if the people want to change it, they can through legislation.  We are democracy, you know. 

mbaginy

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1461 on: August 04, 2019, 12:38:51 pm »

It takes but a few seconds to kill countless people.  I hate to imagine a firefight between “good guys” and “bad guys” in a shopping mall, school or parking lot.  Police are educated in handling situations, civilians aren’t.  It isn’t easy aiming a weapon at a person and pulling the trigger, watching him die.  Should civilians be subjected to that horror?

Maybe people have been watching too many Hollywood films (by the way, a massive influencer in my view).  How are children coping with these maß murders, with these horrors?  How do they feel in school, in movies, in discos or simply shopping?  And people argue over a right to bear arms, right to free speech by spreading hatred, advertising weapons, and more.

Which civilian needs an assault rifle?  Nobody.  I can understand the allure, though I don’t condone their sales.  I picked up a weapon (an M16) when I was but a kid and laid it down four years later.  Good riddance!

The subject is extremely complex and the situation in the US not changed by one or two changes in laws or procedures.  Society needs to change, a different one to the direction which began a few years ago.  Current presidential leadership spawns hatred and division.  Maybe a revolution is needed.  If so, we seem to be on the right track.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1462 on: August 04, 2019, 12:51:13 pm »

We are democracy, you know.

I've been told by forum members that the USA is not a Democracy.
So which is it? It either is or it isn't?

Can you guys/gals make up your mind and agree on at least one thing.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1463 on: August 04, 2019, 12:51:36 pm »

It takes but a few seconds to kill countless people.  I hate to imagine a firefight between “good guys” and “bad guys” in a shopping mall, school or parking lot.  Police are educated in handling situations, civilians aren’t.  It isn’t easy aiming a weapon at a person and pulling the trigger, watching him die.  Should civilians be subjected to that horror?

Maybe people have been watching too many Hollywood films (by the way, a massive influencer in my view).  How are children coping with these maß murders, with these horrors?  How do they feel in school, in movies, in discos or simply shopping?  And people argue over a right to bear arms, right to free speech by spreading hatred, advertising weapons, and more.

Which civilian needs an assault rifle?  Nobody.  I can understand the allure, though I don’t condone their sales.  I picked up a weapon (an M16) when I was but a kid and laid it down four years later.  Good riddance!

The subject is extremely complex and the situation in the US not changed by one or two changes in laws or procedures.  Society needs to change, a different one to the direction which began a few years ago.  Current presidential leadership spawns hatred and division.  Maybe a revolution is needed.  If so, we seem to be on the right track.
The Democrats are spawning hatred and division by playing the race and gender card to divide Americans into groups for political ends. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1464 on: August 04, 2019, 12:53:49 pm »

I've been told by forum members that the USA is not a Democracy.
So which is it? It either is or it isn't?

Can you guys/gals make up your mind and agree on at least one thing.

Cheers,
Bart
OK you want to be specific.  Ok.  The legislators who are elected by the people can change the laws.  Is that better? :)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1465 on: August 04, 2019, 01:04:18 pm »

OK you want to be specific.  Ok.  The legislators who are elected by the people can change the laws.  Is that better? :)

Not really. What are some of these legislators (e.g. Moscow Mitch) doing about it?

Quote from: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
The House passed HR8, a Bipartisan Background Checks Act, *5 months ago* and the Senate has yet to vote on it. It was one of our 1st major priorities after ending the gov shutdown. You’ve been sitting on it since February giving bogus excuses. Care to explain the people why?

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 01:21:54 pm by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1466 on: August 04, 2019, 01:25:18 pm »

Just ban all arms...

Yes! It worked so well with drugs.

Quote
... Only Police may carry arms...

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1467 on: August 04, 2019, 01:37:01 pm »

Watch what happens soon in Hong Kong when the unarmed Chinese lose their freedoms.  Another Tiananmen Square.

mbaginy

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1468 on: August 04, 2019, 01:55:36 pm »

The Democrats are spawning hatred and division by playing the race and gender card to divide Americans into groups for political ends.
Alan, I'm amazed and saddened, how one-track and single-minded you choose your opinions to be.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1469 on: August 04, 2019, 02:10:57 pm »

Alan, I'm amazed and saddened, how one-track and single-minded you choose your opinions to be.

What makes it "one-track and single-minded," other than by default? In a thread that has more leftist posts, Alan is providing a counter-argument. Obviously, argument and counter-argument have to be, each, "one-track and single-minded," otherwise they wouldn't be "argument and counter-argument." Duh.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1470 on: August 04, 2019, 02:14:27 pm »

What's up with the loony-left obsession with dripping blood (in response to  Bart's NRA meme):

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1471 on: August 04, 2019, 02:33:11 pm »

These shooters are not 'crazies', 'lunatics', 'nut jobs' etc. They are highly-motivated, white supremacist terrorists....

Really? What is "white-supremacist" about Ohio shooting? Ohio is as white as it gets, and the gunmen killed his own sister there. How about the school shooting recently by a leftist, transgender boy? The outrage (if any) lasted about 2 seconds in the loony-left mainstream media, before being forgotten, as it doesn't fit the "white supremacy" narrative. Shooting in Las Vegas, at a country music festival, where attendees are usually associated with rednecks, deplorables, or Republicans? The guy was white, but where is the "supremacy" part? Shooting in Dallas, by a black BLM-sympathizer? Etc., etc.

Chris Kern

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1472 on: August 04, 2019, 03:01:23 pm »

The legislators who are elected by the people can change the laws.

What are some of these legislators (e.g. Moscow Mitch) doing about it?

It is politically difficult for Republican members of the Senate (or of the House of Representatives, for that matter) to support stronger gun regulation, regardless of what they personally believe, because if they do there is a significant activist faction within their party that would sponsor intraparty primary election challenges to them that would threaten their ability to run for re-election.  I suspect there are quite a few who would prefer to do more, but most U.S. federal legislators are professional politicians, and are reluctant—to say the least—to jeopardize their chance of remaining in office.  (Some Democrats in more conservative states also tend to be cautious about supporting aggressive gun control, but the threat to them typically is in the general election—i.e., the defection of voters who oppose more regulation to a Republican opponent—rather than a primary challenge.)

Largely because of the increasing frequency of incidents like yesterday's in Texas and Ohio, a number of proposals have been introduced in the Congress to create federal regulatory regimes similar to those in Europe and elsewhere.  These include a federal gun ownership licensing requirement, more comprehensive regulation of sales as well as a requirement for registration of non-commercial sales (i.e., between individuals), and bans on the sale of assault rifles and high-capacity magazines.  These might have other benefits, but with roughly 400 million (sic) privately-owned firearms in the United States, it doesn't seem likely that these would meaningfully reduce the number of mass shootings.  One congressman has proposed a law that would authorize a "buyback" of assault weapons by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which might plausibly reduce the carnage when mass shootings do take place, but as far as I know it hasn't even been referred for committee evaluation yet.

A number of states have recently enacted new gun control laws, and that's where I would expect most of the legislative activity to remain unless the Democrats are able to regain control of the Senate in 2020.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 03:05:49 pm by Chris Kern »
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1473 on: August 04, 2019, 03:08:20 pm »

You forget that America was birthed by free men who used their private weapons to rid themselves of your king and British control.  How much longer did it take the Indians and Arabs do to the same?  What about others in your empire? 

When American patriots wrote our Constitution, they wanted to assure that no future government would take away free men's rights to own and use private weapons against any potential future king or tyrant.   While I can understand you misunderstanding of our culture, and history, what bothers me is how many Americans today have not learned the importance of our 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms in ensuring our future freedoms.


Alan, stand back and reread what you just wrote.

You sound like a broken record made before records existed. References to the British Empire are redundant, and have been for decades. Were it not for that same old creaky empire you and your beloved land of immigrants wouldn't even exist as it does today. It was our empire and those empires of other European nations that peopled your place of residence, from the north, the east, the west and the south. You are effectively arguing against your own presence and residence in the promised land. Spare me further details of the history; we all studied it in school in my time, willingly or otherwise. In Spain, some think they still have divine right to Texas and California, and as their preachers had so much to do with it, are they so mistaken?
 
Let me tell you something else: when folks start throwing around terms like patriot, you can bet your ass they know they have already lost the argument, if not the plot, the latter the more likely. Free men... you mean as distinct from slaves or freed slaves or just blacks who until a few decades ago couldn't even piss against the same stinking wall as a white idiot with straw coming out his ears? Perhaps you refer instead to the 250+ mass shootings this year already, and it's only the beginning of August; the drive-by shootings that don't even hit the tv because they happen every day in the bad parts of town; the street robberies at gun point that don't get covered either, for the same reason: not news. Are those the freedoms your guns buy you, and you cherish and hold so highly above those of other, lesser nations?

You have your armed forces, your police (a variety to every taste), your sheriffs, your National Guard and yet you want more guns around to protect you from yourselves? Man, that's the best argument to becoming an Amercan migrant you could have made!

Rob
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 03:44:24 pm by Rob C »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1474 on: August 04, 2019, 03:21:47 pm »

... primary election challenges... the defection of voters...

Which means it is we, the people who oppose gun regulations, not NRA.

And we oppose it simply because any tighter regulation addresses only legal owners, and they are a significant minority in crimes committed with guns. NRA members are an even smaller minority in that statistics.

The real question is how do we prevent a sale of a gun to someone who only after the fact proves to be a total lunatic, but otherwise appears normal, if a bit weird? How do we prevent that? And if we do, how do we prevent them from illegally obtain the same? In a nation of 300+ million and 400 million guns, how do you prevent a few acts of lunacy a year?

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1475 on: August 04, 2019, 03:34:50 pm »

Which means it is we, the people who oppose gun regulations, not NRA.

And we oppose it simply because any tighter regulation addresses only legal owners, and they are a significant minority in crimes committed with guns. NRA members are an even smaller minority in that statistics.

The real question is how do we prevent a sale of a gun to someone who only after the fact proves to be a total lunatic, but otherwise appears normal, if a bit weird? How do we prevent that? And if we do, how do we prevent them from illegally obtain the same? In a nation of 300+ million and 400 million guns, how do you prevent a few acts of lunacy a year?


That might be one real question, but not the fundamental one.

The bottom line is having any of the damned things at all. Bluntly, without one, sane, mad or just angry and provoked, you can't shoot what ain't in your hand. And you know that perfectly well, too.

Neither would I be inclined to term 250 mass killing this year - so far - a few acts of lunacy. It"s endemic in your system and needs rooting out. The first step to a cure is recognizing there is a problem.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 03:38:30 pm by Rob C »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1476 on: August 04, 2019, 03:55:21 pm »

... The bottom line is having any of the damned things at all...

That, of course, is a wishful thinking. Along the lines of wishing for world peace, cure for cancer and boldness, everlasting love, soulmate for everyone, and a free ice cream day all year long.

We tried that with alcohol, didn't work. Still trying with drugs, doesn't work. Ain't gonna work with guns either.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1477 on: August 04, 2019, 03:56:43 pm »


Alan, stand back and reread what you just wrote.

You sound like a broken record made before records existed. References to the British Empire are redundant, and have been for decades. Were it not for that same old creaky empire you and your beloved land of immigrants wouldn't even exist as it does today. It was our empire and those empires of other European nations that peopled your place of residence, from the north, the east, the west and the south. You are effectively arguing against your own presence and residence in the promised land. Spare me further details of the history; we all studied it in school in my time, willingly or otherwise. In Spain, some think they still have divine right to Texas and California, and as their preachers had so much to do with it, are they so mistaken?
 
Let me tell you something else: when folks start throwing around terms like patriot, you can bet your ass they know they have already lost the argument, if not the plot, the latter the more likely. Free men... you mean as distinct from slaves or freed slaves or just blacks who until a few decades ago couldn't even piss against the same stinking wall as a white idiot with straw coming out his ears? Perhaps you refer instead to the 250+ mass shootings this year already, and it's only the beginning of August; the drive-by shootings that don't even hit the tv because they happen every day in the bad parts of town; the street robberies at gun point that don't get covered either, for the same reason: not news. Are those the freedoms your guns buy you, and you cherish and hold so highly above those of other, lesser nations?

You have your armed forces, your police (a variety to every taste), your sheriffs, your National Guard and yet you want more guns around to protect you from yourselves? Man, that's the best argument to becoming an Amercan migrant you could have made!

Rob


Americans today are a free people.  With all due respect to outsiders who don;t live here, we don't need foreigners telling us how to stay free.   We'll stick with our constitution. 

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1478 on: August 04, 2019, 03:57:45 pm »


Yes, and no.

To change the people factor you would require massive re-education which is impossible because, as we both know, normal education across the world is a rarity, so the software can't be fixed. Much human software is fatally flawed from the first moments it exists, so no later fixing's going to work.

That leaves only the hardware, and the govt. could start by finding its testicles - assuming they have not atrophied beyond repair - and instantly ban the production of all small arms that a person might care to carry concealed in his waistband. It could restrict the sales of so-called sporting rifles to farmers and authorised rangers and ensure that anyone found owning a military weapon goes down for a considerable period. Sport shooting, as in the killing for "fun" of animals by a civilian with a blood lust and ineffectual penis is a horrible comment on the state of mind and being of such a person. Of such a vast group of them, in fact.

The arms business makes enough money selling to political and radical factions across the globe. Without its benign interference the weapons in those benighted territories would be no better than copies of copies of old Russian guns hand-made in Afghanistan.

Of course the criminals will ponder any gun amnesty and some will surrender and some not. If no new supply can be bought off the shelf, all the better; that illegal supplies will continue is not in question, but hey, the penalties can be made to match the crime, and buying illegally will be more difficult than doing so by mail order, in a mall or at a county fair.

Mr T wants to build walls: he can start with penitentiary ones first, helping both the building trades and the long-term employment figures in one magnificent gesture. Even the farmers would be happy with all those state-funded mouths to feed!

If you remove gun lobby money from politics, you can bet that governments of all stripes will quickly come to their senses on the matter of guns. It already gives them hassle enough every time some other moron goes nuts in the heat of either the moment or the weather. They don't need this crap, but they do grovel for the cash.

I always hate the disagree with a friend, but in this case, Rob, I can’t avoid it. I’ve been out most of the day, so I’m a bit late, but. . .

First of all, I agree that what nowadays passes for education is a black pit. Of course, to say something like that you first have to specify what you mean by “education.” If a person working to become, say, an MD is being educated, the education is taking place peripherally. He, along with his engineering, banking, and business counterparts, is being “trained.” “Education” is something beyond training. There’s training and there’s brainwashing, but there’s damned little educating going on in our schools nowadays. I keep hoping education will creep back into our schools and universities, but I keep reading more and more stuff by “educated” people who don’t know the difference between the verbs “to lie” and “to lay,” and who think the expression “begs the question” means to ask a question more emphatically. I think that eventually this too shall pass away, but it ain’t gonna happen in my lifetime.

As far as the hardware is concerned, there’s that old saw: “When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.” And we’ve demonstrated that point over and over and over again with “gun free zones,” say, for instance, the 2013 massacre of 32 at Virginia Tech, to name just one particularly egregious example out of dozens. Here’s a paragraph from a letter I recently had published in the local paper:

“When this subject comes up my mind always flashes on the 2013 massacre at Virginia Tech. Livlu Librescu was a holocaust survivor and engineering professor who held the door of his Virginia Tech classroom against Seung-Hui Cho, the student who murdered 32 people that day. All but one of Livlu’s students escaped through another door, but Cho broke through and Livlu and one of his students were murdered. And I always think: What if the professor had been armed? He could have ended the slaughter right there at the door. But Livlu couldn’t be armed because Virginia Tech was a “gun free zone” (except for the gun Cho used to murder his classmates and teachers).”

The 2011 massacre of 91 in Norway also comes to mind. All of the terrible slaughters have been in gun free zones or their equivalent.

In any case, there’s no way guns are going to be prohibited or confiscated in the U.S., and that fact has nothing to do with either Mr. T or what you imagine is a “gun lobby.” Obama kept talking about things like that and if you check the figures (I could go dig out one of Bart’s charts, but I don’t have time to bother) you’ll find that Obama was the most successful gun salesman the U.S. has ever seen. People rushed out to guy guns before the man could cause a problem. The hardware simply isn’t going away. Even if guns were outlawed, outlaws would have guns, just as they have in countries that ban guns. But even if it were possible to eliminate guns entirely from the world, you’d see the kind of increase in knife attacks London has seen recently, and you’d see people driving trucks and cars into crowds, as has been the case in several countries.

The problem is with the people. I suspect that somewhere down the road there’ll be a serious revolt against the kind of behavior people are displaying at the moment, just as there was a gradual revolt against the outrages of Elizabethan England, ending in the recently departed puckered lips of Victorianism. Excesses come and go. Let’s pray that this excess soon will pass away.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1479 on: August 04, 2019, 04:32:17 pm »

It is politically difficult for Republican members of the Senate (or of the House of Representatives, for that matter) to support stronger gun regulation, regardless of what they personally believe, because if they do there is a significant activist faction within their party that would sponsor intraparty primary election challenges to them that would threaten their ability to run for re-election.  I suspect there are quite a few who would prefer to do more, but most U.S. federal legislators are professional politicians, and are reluctant—to say the least—to jeopardize their chance of remaining in office.  (Some Democrats in more conservative states also tend to be cautious about supporting aggressive gun control, but the threat to them typically is in the general election—i.e., the defection of voters who oppose more regulation to a Republican opponent—rather than a primary challenge.)

Largely because of the increasing frequency of incidents like yesterday's in Texas and Ohio, a number of proposals have been introduced in the Congress to create federal regulatory regimes similar to those in Europe and elsewhere.  These include a federal gun ownership licensing requirement, more comprehensive regulation of sales as well as a requirement for registration of non-commercial sales (i.e., between individuals), and bans on the sale of assault rifles and high-capacity magazines.  These might have other benefits, but with roughly 400 million (sic) privately-owned firearms in the United States, it doesn't seem likely that these would meaningfully reduce the number of mass shootings.  One congressman has proposed a law that would authorize a "buyback" of assault weapons by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which might plausibly reduce the carnage when mass shootings do take place, but as far as I know it hasn't even been referred for committee evaluation yet.

A number of states have recently enacted new gun control laws, and that's where I would expect most of the legislative activity to remain unless the Democrats are able to regain control of the Senate in 2020.
States have some regulatory control, such as in NYC where it's almost impossible to get a carry permit unless you're a well-connected Hollywoodite.   But other state or local laws have been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.  I doubt if there will be many changes made that will make a difference.  Most of the constitutional ones are already regulated into criminal code.  Even if COngress took over, there's not much they can change.  Even outlawing "assault rifles" wouldn't change much of anything.  It's all "good feeling" legislation but will make little difference on the ground.  The risk in doing it, as the NRA keeps reminding us, is that it becomes a slippery slope.  Suddenly, more severe rules are imposed that will take away guns, any and all guns. 

I'm ambivalent on Congress "doing what's right", whatever that means.  While I respect legislators who have the chutzpah to act on their own risking getting thrown out of office, ultimately they are responsible to the people, the voters who put them in office.  So if they respect the voters wishes, isn't that more democratic than legislating against those wishes?  After all, if the electorate wanted, you can do away with guns in one fell swoop.  Just add an Amendment to the constitution reversing the 2nd Amendment. 
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