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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 221729 times)

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1420 on: August 03, 2019, 04:44:45 pm »

Guess the guns have just spoken again down in Texas.

Nothing much changes; the protests will probably come up again, but so will the counter-arguments and nothing concrete will be done. What a terrible situation.

LesPalenik

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1421 on: August 03, 2019, 04:55:27 pm »

Golly, guess you'll have to eat goats, James. Surely they don't fart. How about deer and bear in the forest? They couldn't possible fart. After all, they're wild animals.

As seen in Graduate movie:
Quote
Mr. McGuire: I want to say just one word to you. Just one word.

Benjamin: Yes, sir.

Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?

Benjamin: Yes, I am.

Mr. McGuire: PlasticsInsects.

Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean?

Mr. McGuire: There’s a great future in plasticsInsects. Think about it. Will you think about it?
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RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1422 on: August 03, 2019, 07:50:24 pm »

 ;D Yeah. I saw the movie too.
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kers

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1423 on: August 04, 2019, 05:22:58 am »

Guess the guns have just spoken again down in Texas.

Nothing much changes; the protests will probably come up again, but so will the counter-arguments and nothing concrete will be done. What a terrible situation.
Guess the guns have just spoken again down in Texas Ohio.

Nothing much changes; the protests will probably come up again, but so will the counter-arguments and nothing concrete will be done. What a terrible situation.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1424 on: August 04, 2019, 06:28:20 am »

Guess the guns have just spoken again down in Texas Ohio.

Nothing much changes; the protests will probably come up again, but so will the counter-arguments and nothing concrete will be done. What a terrible situation.

In case you missed this https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/456070-driver-plows-through-crowd-gathered-at-anti-violence-rally-in.
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Robert

RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1425 on: August 04, 2019, 07:42:49 am »

. . .nothing concrete will be done.

What concrete is to be done? The usual response is: "Let's ban guns." But when I was 12 and still when I was 30, just about everybody had guns, myself included. The changes have to do with people, not guns.
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1426 on: August 04, 2019, 09:46:26 am »

What concrete is to be done? The usual response is: "Let's ban guns." But when I was 12 and still when I was 30, just about everybody had guns, myself included. The changes have to do with people, not guns.


Yes, and no.

To change the people factor you would require massive re-education which is impossible because, as we both know, normal education across the world is a rarity, so the software can't be fixed. Much human software is fatally flawed from the first moments it exists, so no later fixing's going to work.

That leaves only the hardware, and the govt. could start by finding its testicles - assuming they have not atrophied beyond repair - and instantly ban the production of all small arms that a person might care to carry concealed in his waistband. It could restrict the sales of so-called sporting rifles to farmers and authorised rangers and ensure that anyone found owning a military weapon goes down for a considerable period. Sport shooting, as in the killing for "fun" of animals by a civilian with a blood lust and ineffectual penis is a horrible comment on the state of mind and being of such a person. Of such a vast group of them, in fact.

The arms business makes enough money selling to political and radical factions across the globe. Without its benign interference the weapons in those benighted territories would be no better than copies of copies of old Russian guns hand-made in Afghanistan.

Of course the criminals will ponder any gun amnesty and some will surrender and some not. If no new supply can be bought off the shelf, all the better; that illegal supplies will continue is not in question, but hey, the penalties can be made to match the crime, and buying illegally will be more difficult than doing so by mail order, in a mall or at a county fair.

Mr T wants to build walls: he can start with penitentiary ones first, helping both the building trades and the long-term employment figures in one magnificent gesture. Even the farmers would be happy with all those state-funded mouths to feed!

If you remove gun lobby money from politics, you can bet that governments of all stripes will quickly come to their senses on the matter of guns. It already gives them hassle enough every time some other moron goes nuts in the heat of either the moment or the weather. They don't need this crap, but they do grovel for the cash.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1427 on: August 04, 2019, 10:24:24 am »

What concrete is to be done? The usual response is: "Let's ban guns." But when I was 12 and still when I was 30, just about everybody had guns, myself included. The changes have to do with people, not guns.

I should preface this by stating that responses to these mass shootings are of course emotional. These types of shootings represent a tiny fraction of American gun violence, but their random nature scares people, so the emotional response is understandable. That is, if somebody next door shoots his wife or brother-in-law in an argument, it's easy for most people to say, 'Well, he hated his brother-in-law, not me, so who cares?' This is an admittedly crude way to put it, but it's not a bad summary of what happens, imo.

You ask 'What is to be done?' Tough question, but it must be pretty obvious by now that doing nothing isn't working very well.

The aphorism "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is more a signal of tribal affiliation than explanation or analysis. But accepting it at face value as the cause of shootings, wouldn't it be in your collective best interest then to at least be more careful about which people are allowed to buy guns? There are exams to pass before you're allowed to drive. There are exams to pass before a HAM radio operator is allowed to transmit.

Why is there such a frenzied reaction by the gun fetish lobby when someone suggests something along those lines when it comes to firearms ownership? Is it REALLY a violation of your constitutional rights if you have to answer some questions and wait a week to be allowed to buy a gun to "defend your family"? Isn't that argument a little thin?

The thing is, as you and others have often pointed out, there already are a lot of guns around and it's silly to try to curb their proliferation at this point. There's a lot in that, it's difficult to argue with and I won't try. Because of that, it somehow follows that the "good guys" need guns too to defend themselves. But isn't it kind of the case that any "good guys" who were going to buy guns would have done so by now? Isn't it the case that a lot of good guys have guns now already? Wouldn't it be nice for your belief system if there were at least one or two examples of one or two of those good guys actually being present and stopping one of these mass shootings? I mean, shouldn't there have been a few cases by now if it was true that only a "good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun." 

But as Rob C stated, the status quo is stalemate and likely to remain so. This is too sad for words.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 10:35:54 am by Robert Roaldi »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1428 on: August 04, 2019, 10:39:16 am »

... shouldn't there have been a few cases by now if it was true that only a "good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun." 

The trouble is, those are usually "gun-free" zones, where good guys are not allowed to bring in their guns in the first place.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1429 on: August 04, 2019, 10:50:22 am »

The trouble is, those are usually "gun-free" zones, where good guys are not allowed to bring in their guns in the first place.

So, if one cannot bring one's gun, how are more guns going to help?
Are you pleading to getting rid of "gun-free" zones?

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1430 on: August 04, 2019, 10:57:59 am »

... Are you pleading to getting rid of "gun-free" zones?

Yes, absolutely!

The stupidest idea of the anti-gun advocates.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1431 on: August 04, 2019, 11:05:38 am »


Yes, and no.

To change the people factor you would require massive re-education which is impossible because, as we both know, normal education across the world is a rarity, so the software can't be fixed. Much human software is fatally flawed from the first moments it exists, so no later fixing's going to work.

That leaves only the hardware, and the govt. could start by finding its testicles - assuming they have not atrophied beyond repair - and instantly ban the production of all small arms that a person might care to carry concealed in his waistband. It could restrict the sales of so-called sporting rifles to farmers and authorised rangers and ensure that anyone found owning a military weapon goes down for a considerable period. Sport shooting, as in the killing for "fun" of animals by a civilian with a blood lust and ineffectual penis is a horrible comment on the state of mind and being of such a person. Of such a vast group of them, in fact.

The arms business makes enough money selling to political and radical factions across the globe. Without its benign interference the weapons in those benighted territories would be no better than copies of copies of old Russian guns hand-made in Afghanistan.

Of course the criminals will ponder any gun amnesty and some will surrender and some not. If no new supply can be bought off the shelf, all the better; that illegal supplies will continue is not in question, but hey, the penalties can be made to match the crime, and buying illegally will be more difficult than doing so by mail order, in a mall or at a county fair.

Mr T wants to build walls: he can start with penitentiary ones first, helping both the building trades and the long-term employment figures in one magnificent gesture. Even the farmers would be happy with all those state-funded mouths to feed!

If you remove gun lobby money from politics, you can bet that governments of all stripes will quickly come to their senses on the matter of guns. It already gives them hassle enough every time some other moron goes nuts in the heat of either the moment or the weather. They don't need this crap, but they do grovel for the cash.
Your recommendations would require a change in the US Constitution Amendment 2 to eliminate guns as you suggest.  You'd need a change to Amendment 1 to eliminate the NRA's right of free speech and to petition government regarding laws they make like any other person or organization may do. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1432 on: August 04, 2019, 11:10:55 am »

Yes, absolutely!

The stupidest idea of the anti-gun advocates.
Of course, since malls are private property, the owners may imposed whatever rules they deem fit including "gun free" zones as what happened in El Paso, Texas.   

What's interesting is the Dayton Ohio situation.  I believe that happened in a public area of the street.  What were the laws in effect there at  the time?  Most cities don't allow open carry or carry at all, but there are states that do.  Would the situation have played out differently if it occured in an carry area where the public started to shot back and killed the guy before the cops even got there?  Of course, in carry locations, there's less of a possibility that someone is going to start shooting in the first place

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1433 on: August 04, 2019, 11:14:49 am »

... Of course, in carry locations, there's less of a possibility that someone is going to start shooting in the first place

Yes and no. Those lunatics go there do die. By cop or bystanders, it is all the same to them. But, he might end up dead sooner.

faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1434 on: August 04, 2019, 11:15:50 am »

Your recommendations would require a change in the US Constitution Amendment 2 to eliminate guns as you suggest.  You'd need a change to Amendment 1 to eliminate the NRA's right of free speech and to petition government regarding laws they make like any other person or organization may do.
You can ban assault rifles. We have done it before. Machine guns have been banned for a hundred years. We ban rocket launchers after all. Maybe some background checks without loopholes.  NRA can still advocate for guns. So what. People advocate for all sorts of stuff we don't permit. We can still take reasonable steps .
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1435 on: August 04, 2019, 11:16:03 am »

Of course, since malls are private property, the owners may imposed whatever rules they deem fit including "gun free" zones as what happened in El Paso, Texas.   

What's interesting is the Dayton Ohio situation.  I believe that happened in a public area of the street.  What were the laws in effect there at  the time?  Most cities don't allow open carry or carry at all, but there are states that do.  Would the situation have played out differently if it occured in an carry area where the public started to shot back and killed the guy before the cops even got there?  Of course, in carry locations, there's less of a possibility that someone is going to start shooting in the first place

Is there?

Cheers,
Bart
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degrub

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1436 on: August 04, 2019, 11:16:10 am »

Supposedly the cops got the Ohio shooter in less than a minute.
El Paso took more than 6 minutes.

With auto or semi-auto, that is a lot of hits. Heck, even a pistol is 6+.

Too easy for those who hate or cannot control themselves.

Society tolerates the behavior. Until that changes then no change.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1437 on: August 04, 2019, 11:17:23 am »

Yes and no. Those lunatics go there do die. By cop or bystanders, it is all the same to them. But, he might end up dead sooner.

 ... and a larger number of innocent bystanders as well.

Cheers,
Bart
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1438 on: August 04, 2019, 11:20:37 am »

Your recommendations would require a change in the US Constitution Amendment 2 to eliminate guns as you suggest.  You'd need a change to Amendment 1 to eliminate the NRA's right of free speech and to petition government regarding laws they make like any other person or organization may do.


Putting free speech and gun ownership in bed together is a lunacy. If your FFs really intended that, they must have been moonshine distillers on the side.

Not in any man's language can guns and speech be conflated in this manner and make sense.

Anyone pretending otherwise is making a mockery of his own country and its laws.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1439 on: August 04, 2019, 11:23:27 am »

... We can still take reasonable steps .

Like what?

I am not trying to be facetious. I am genuinely interested. Most of those guys would have passed, or did, background checks. They are typically described as loners, a bit withdrawn or weird, but far from certifiably mental.
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