long live NRA - next convention in Mandalay Bay !

[JNB_Rare]

So if I become a dictator, I'll know exactly who owns weapons, and I'll be able to send my brownshirts around to those folks and either collect their arms or shoot them. If that sounds paranoid then you need to read up on German history.

Russ, as a student of German history, are you not then concerned about the rise of nationalist fervor and divisive rhetoric in American politics?  Were those tactics not, in large part, responsible for Hitler's success? If, as has been reported, the Russians sought to sow social discord, fear and chaos through fake social media accounts, it seems that candidate/President Trump was/is willingly complicit with that strategy.

+1
Of course, those on the left only want the government to have weapons for exactly that reason.  Of course, they won't talk about the real reasons they want to ban weapons for people.  They only talk about how dangerous weapons are.  It's a head fake.

Most people today don't know that it was President Franklin Roosevelt who tried to pack the Supreme Court in 1937 with his cronies so he can rule the government.  Fortunately he failed.  Congress stopped him.  Then one realizes that the nicest people can turn out to be the biggest autocrats or dictators if you give them a half a chance.  One can only tremble thinking about what this country would look like if he was successful.  Of course those on the left call him a great president.  Well, they're the ones who believe in an all-powerful central government, a government who has all the weapons.   Protecting the 2nd Amendment is an investment in future liberty. 

Alan, do you really think "the left" in America wants gun control because they crave a dictator? Are Jews, who have a longstanding aversion to guns -- the lowest rate of gun ownership among all religious groups -- and who voted overwhelmingly for Roosevelt, BTW, hoping for a new Hitler? I think not. And, as you have already pointed out, there are checks and balances to abuse of power long before citizen militias would be necessary.

Speaking of militias, there are quite a few in the US already.

[RSL]

They started by getting all the states together with the federal government after a mass shooting in Tasmania.  They agreed to outlaw many weapons, and much tough regulations for those that were still available.

It took three and half months after Port Arthur, for those gun control laws to be passed, with a groundswell of bipartisan support from all sides of politics.

Hi John, The difference is that even with a "groundswell of bipartisan support" you can't do it in the U.S. You'd have to change the Constitution, and that ain't easy. "A groundswell of bipartisan support" managed to bring on prohibition, the eighteenth amendment to the Constitution, but it takes a huge majority in both the House and the Senate, or a constitutional convention called by two thirds of the states even to get an amendment on a ballot. The amendment then requires approval by a three-fourths majority of the states to pass. Ain't gonna happen!

[RSL]

Russ, as a student of German history, are you not then concerned about the rise of nationalist fervor and divisive rhetoric in American politics?  Were those tactics not, in large part, responsible for Hitler's success?

You betcha, Rare. Antifa is doing their best to ape the brownshirts, as is Black Lives Matter. The difference is that they're not facing a defeated, economically ruined people.

[Robert Roaldi]

I think it's incredibly naive to believe our nation is immune to this kind of thing. I was stationed in Canada in 1959. A couple of my troops went hunting one winter morning and did something that at least on the face of it was illegal. Their guns were confiscated on the spot along with the car they'd driven. At that time, no such thing could have happened in the U.S., at least until after a trial and conviction. Now, check what's happening in our own country with civil forfeiture. In 1959 I wouldn't have believed this. That's called naivety. Big time!

In the USA, if you're black, unarmed, and not committing a crime, the cops just shoot you dead.

[RSL]

You're not helping Canada to look very informed, Robert.

[RSL]

You are 100% correct, though, that the underlying driver is that many Americans want their guns and they aren't going to let anyone take their toys away no matter what.

Exactly, Phil. And they want their beer too. That's why the 18th amendment finally went down in flames.

Another thought: any time you prohibit people from having something, it increases their desire for that something. As one gun dealer pointed out: Obama was the most effective gun salesman of all time. Why? Because he kept talking about prohibiting certain kinds of gun sales.

Keep it up left-wingers. Gun sales already are rising.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Another thought: any time you prohibit people from having something, it increases their desire for that something. As one gun dealer pointed out: Obama was the most effective gun salesman of all time. Why? Because he kept talking about prohibiting certain kinds of gun sales.

Keep it up left-wingers. Gun sales already are rising.

Then why does the NRA fight so hard to keep gun manufacturers exempted from tort liability? 

[RSL]

How about some actual evidence for that, Alan. Just saying it doesn't make it so, though there are plenty of people who'd like things to work that way.

[RSL]

Okay, let's look at mass shootings that are an unsolvable problem in the U.S., "the only country with a mass shooting problem" (Vegas is going to raise the U.S. total a bit, but not enough to change the comparisons):

Norway: 67 dead, total vics 100, mass shooting total victims per 100,000 1.94.

Switzerland:  14 dead, total vics 32, mass shooting total victims per 100,000 .40.

U.S.: 487 dead, total vics 992, mass shooting total victims per 100,000 .31.

I could go on with this, citing places like Mexico where the figures are out of sight.

Interesting. Nobody seems to want to talk about these statistics. All they want to talk about is how few guns there are in places like Norway and Switzerland.

[Alan Klein]

Quote from: RSL on Today at 10:59:24 AM

Another thought: any time you prohibit people from having something, it increases their desire for that something. As one gun dealer pointed out: Obama was the most effective gun salesman of all time. Why? Because he kept talking about prohibiting certain kinds of gun sales.

Keep it up left-wingers. Gun sales already are rising.

Then why does the NRA fight so hard to keep gun manufacturers exempted from tort liability? 

Alan G.: Your question to the post you quoted makes no sense. It's a non-sequitur. What did you mean?

[Alan Klein]

Alan G:  My question is what does exempting manufacturers from tort liability have to do with prohibitions?  They're separate issues.  Prohibitions prevent gun owners from legally purchasing certain guns or add ownership or use impediments of one kind or another.  Exempting tort reliability keeps manufacturers in business.  It's in the NRA and gun owners interest to keep arms and bullet manufacturers in business.  Without them there would be no access to guns or ammunition.  Of course, that's something the left wing wants to accomplish if they can't get the Supreme Court or Congress to eliminate guns.  If people sue just over the fact they make these things because nut jobs use them illegally and put manufacturers out of business, then that would not serve the NRA or gun owners.  Using tort lawsuits is just a sneaky way of the left accomplishing what they cannot do democratically.  But then the left isn't really interested in democracy or free speech, only power. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Hey, no worries guys. It's all good. The USA has no gun problems and Canada, France, Germany, etc. are dictatorships. I get it.

It's a long weekend here in Canada (our Thanksgiving), colours are late this year, almost none here in Ottawa this year yet, highly unusual autumn, but I'm going to enjoy the weekend anyway.

Keep your eyes open for that totalitarian take-over. Be sure to give us an early head's up in between re-loads if you can. 

[Alan Klein]

Interesting. Nobody seems to want to talk about these statistics. All they want to talk about is how few guns there are in places like Norway and Switzerland.

Of course they don't want to talk.  They'll have to acknowledge that it's nut jobs who kill people, not guns.  All these laws are answers to the last attack.  When access to planes won't work anymore, they switch to individuals using guns.  When guns might not work, they switch to trucks.  People will always find a way around current protection.  We're fighting the last battle all the time.  Does anyone really think that getting rid of bump stocks is going to slow down attacks?  OK, it's a good idea to ban them.  But dozens would have been killed anyway.  All the laws against filing, background searches, stopping crazy people, none of these worked although they were in effect.  We had a "normal" guy who turned out crazy.  Even if we were able to prevent this guy from not getting any guns, he had explosives and would have used those. Or a truck or whatever. 

[Alan Klein]

Hey, no worries guys. It's all good. The USA has no gun problems and Canada, France, Germany, etc. are dictatorships. I get it.

It's a long weekend here in Canada (our Thanksgiving), colours are late this year, almost none here in Ottawa this year yet, highly unusual autumn, but I'm going to enjoy the weekend anyway.

Keep your eyes open for that totalitarian take-over. Be sure to give us an early head's up in between re-loads if you can. 

Venezuela, North Korea, Cuba, Soviet Union, Eastern European countries under Communism, Nazi Germany, etc. 

By the way, I was up in Massachusetts, the Berkshire Mountains, last week and everything was green.  I was very disappointed no fall colors to shoot.

[Christopher Sanderson]

Says it all

[Christopher Sanderson]

  I was very disappointed no fall colors to shoot.

Good one...

[James Clark]

Interesting. Nobody seems to want to talk about these statistics. All they want to talk about is how few guns there are in places like Norway and Switzerland.

Number of victims per capita is a poor measurement since the victims really only measure the efficiency of the shooter, or the random number of victims at any given scene .  Number of shooters, incidents or frequency would be a better indicator since those numbers are more directly related to the likelihood of violence.

They may show similar ratios - I have no idea. But the numbers would be more convincing either way.

[Manoli]

U.S.: 487 dead, total vics 992, mass shooting total victims per 100,000 .31.
[..]
Interesting. Nobody seems to want to talk about these statistics. All they want to talk about is how few guns there are in places like Norway and Switzerland.

Gun violence in the US (wikipedia) 2013: 33,363 deaths 73,505 non-fatal firearm injuries.
So victims per 100,000 isn't 0.31 (ignoring your disingenuity), but
23.2 injuries per 100,000 and 10.6 deaths per 100,000

*/ 1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days
*/ 6 other mass shootings this week alone
*/ Of the approximate 33,000 gun violence deaths that take place each year, only about 500 (or 1.5%) come from mass shootings.

Since 1968, when these figures were first collected, there have been 1,516,863 gun-related deaths on US territory. Since the founding of the United States, there have been 1,396,733 war deaths. That figure includes American lives lost in the revolutionary war, the Mexican war, the civil war (Union and Confederate, estimate), the Spanish-American war, the first world war, the second world war, the Korean war, the Vietnam war, the Gulf war, the Afghanistan war, the Iraq war, as well as other conflicts, including in Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia and Haiti.

(Sources: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1994 (gun death data), Congressional Research Service, 2010 (conflict deaths). Numbers updated by Politifact in 2015)

Even if you deduct the suicide rate, you still get 3.5 per 100,000 against your selectively refined 0.31 ..

[RSL]

Manoli, evidently you missed the "mass shootings" part.

[Manoli]

Manoli, evidently you missed the "mass shootings" part.

No, Russ, I didn't - I said I was 'ignoring your disingenuity'.