Skepticism about Climate Change

[Alan Klein]

So if China divided itself into ten smaller independent countries, that would solve the problem?

So if China divided itself into ten smaller independent countries, that would solve the problem?

It's a bad deal anyway way you slice it.

[Adam L]

http://principia-scientific.org/breaking-fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/

Michael Mann is the fraudulent science clown who sued Mark Steyn and also this actual scientist Dr. Tim Ball. Mann invented the "hockey stick" -- the idea that earth´s temperature rose to unprecedented heights with the current global warming, and this idea has informed a great deal of government policy around the world. The article includes a simple and informative pair of graphs that shows the truth about that devious invention.

Execrable Michael Mann mistakenly believed that the court would be cowed by his false assertion that 97% of the world´s "scientists" agreed with him. The Court simply said: show us your data in support of your claims. He folded like a cheap suit. Mark Steyn, who Mann has slandered and then foolishly sued, can´t wait to see him in court.

[pegelli]

It's a bad deal anyway way you slice it.

The worst part after the deal is that the biggest contributor of warming gases is wiggling out and not taking responsibility because of short sighted economic BS and spreading fake facts.
 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

http://principia-scientific.org/breaking-fatal-courtroom-act-ruins-michael-hockey-stick-mann/

Michael Mann is the fraudulent science clown who sued Mark Steyn and also this actual scientist Dr. Tim Ball. Mann invented the "hockey stick" -- the idea that earth´s temperature rose to unprecedented heights with the current global warming, and this idea has informed a great deal of government policy around the world. The article includes a simple and informative pair of graphs that shows the truth about that devious invention.

Execrable Michael Mann mistakenly believed that the court would be cowed by his false assertion that 97% of the world´s "scientists" agreed with him. The Court simply said: show us your data in support of your claims. He folded like a cheap suit. Mark Steyn, who Mann has slandered and then foolishly sued, can´t wait to see him in court.

Hi Adam (?),

Not sure what the message is that you are conveying, a simple defamation effort or a legal comment?

Anyway, about the 'hockey-stick curve':
https://www.skepticalscience.com/broken-hockey-stick.htm

BTW, here are some more actual measurements of the foot of the hockey-stick:
http://www.columbia.edu/~mhs119/Temperature/globalT_1880-1920base.pdf

and some research on consensus:
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048002

Hope to have resolved your confusion with scientific facts instead of 'some opinion' from the blogosphere.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. https://www.desmogblog.com/principia-scientific-international has some more info about the website you referenced and suggests that they, amongst others, deny CO2 being a greenhouse gas, even that it may add to cooling the atmosphere. So because this too is not a very scientific website, it might help if you could provide some trustworthy info/court filings/peer reviewed scientific papers, to have a somewhat meaningful basis for discussion.

P.P.S. FWIW, the Timothey Ball mentioned in your linked article, is characterized on RationalWiki as a "credential-fudging denialist crank". And Mark Steyn is characterized as “the most toxic right-wing pundit you’ve never heard of” by the Boston Phoenix, according to the same website. Not really the kind of expert witnesses I'd use to make my/any case.

[Alan Klein]

Trump won.  We're out of the governmental climate change business for at least 4 years. 

[Farmer]

Could be less than 2 years.

[Alan Klein]

Could be less than 2 years.

Well some of the EPA spending will continue.  Congress still has a big interest in that.  But Trump won't get impeached.  There's no evidence he had his hand in the cookie jar.  And I suspect Trump  will continue to downplay any climate change push unless the Atlantic Ocean rises off of Florida and sinks Mar-a-lago. 

[pegelli]

Trump won.   

And the US lost, time will tell!

[Farmer]

I'm not talking about impeachment, I'm talking about the mid-terms.  He can barely pass legislation with control of both houses.  He's got almost no chance if the GOP loses control.

[Jim Pascoe]

China produces more CO2 in the world than any other country including America.  (27% China vs. 17% US)  Why should they be given the right to build 800 coal fired plants throughout the world that will eliminate any CO2 reduction advantage for the world?  80% of the world's new coal plants will be built by China.  Meanwhile, you and we have to restrict ourselves adding costs to our economies making us poorer while China gets richer.  You'd be foolish to agree to this deal too.   

Regarding sanctions, how could you impose them when there are no penalties incorporated in the Paris Accord at all?  For us, the Chinese, you and everyone else.  That's the other reason the Accord is unfair.  Because America if it stayed in would have followed and paid while others would cheat like on the 2% promised payments regarding NATO. Trump is right when he said Americans don't know how to make good deals.

I don't often comment here - but Alan - do you not see that China has a much bigger population than the US?  You want this to be fair right?  So what have nationalities got to do with it?  Global warming affects everyone irrespective of where the CO2 emissions originated. I though the USA was the worlds biggest economy - hardly being treated unfairly is it now......
None of us wants to take a drop in living standards, but surely we cannot resent other countries wanting to get up to our level.

Jim

[Alan Klein]

I don't often comment here - but Alan - do you not see that China has a much bigger population than the US?  You want this to be fair right?  So what have nationalities got to do with it?  Global warming affects everyone irrespective of where the CO2 emissions originated. I though the USA was the worlds biggest economy - hardly being treated unfairly is it now......
None of us wants to take a drop in living standards, but surely we cannot resent other countries wanting to get up to our level.

Jimo

Who's stopping them?  Let them work hard and be free like us and they can be great also. 

Because China was Communist, and still is,  for all those years killing their own people and running a basket-case economy, suddenly that's our problem?  So we should drop our standard of living so the Communists in China can stay in power?  Maybe the Chinese would be better off if their economy failed and they threw out the dictators and became really free like us. Then they could build a society that allows people to really be free economically, politically and personally.  Why do you defend dictators?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Who's stopping them?

The USA would like to stop them.

Let them work hard and be free like us and they can be great also.

They are working hard (harder than many), and that generates CO2 waste. That's why they have started to transition away from coal to Nuclear and other energy sources (hydro, solar, wind, etc.), but for the time being, growth will also include some Coal and Natural gas power stations to generate the required power. Anyway, they are not producing as much CO2 per capita as the USA does.

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Klein]

The USA would like to stop them.

They are working hard (harder than many), and that generates CO2 waste. That's why they have started to transition away from coal to Nuclear and other energy sources (hydro, solar, wind, etc.), but for the time being, growth will also include some Coal and Natural gas power stations to generate the required power. Anyway, they are not producing as much CO2 per capita as the USA does.

Cheers,
Bart

How is the USA stopping any country from improving their standard of living?  What are you talking about?  World GDP isn't a zero sum game.  Each country adds to the overall wealth of the world so each country has the opportunity to improve.  We're not stopping anyone.

Sure the Chinese are working hard.  And they are contributing double the amount of CO2 that the US does and it's going even higher.  The 800 coal fired plants they are going to build are going in other countries throughout the world.  So they plan to export their pollution.  Meanwhile they're making billions from this plan and you want me to be sorry for the Communists who beside killing their own political prisoners also want to poison the rest of the world?  The Chinese have bamboozled you and the signatories of the Paris Accord.  It's a bad deal. 

[pegelli]

And they are contributing double the amount of CO2 that the US does and it's going even higher.

Alan, please stop this nonsense argument. The US people are producing double the amount of CO2 vs. the Chinese people, why do you deny them that right? Is it because the US has taken all the flexibility out of the system with your historic high emmissions? In my mind it's selfish and unjustified, so it fits the Trump agenda pretty well.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, please stop this nonsense argument. The US people are producing double the amount of CO2 vs. the Chinese people, why do you deny them that right? Is it because the US has taken all the flexibility out of the system with your historic high emmissions? In my mind it's selfish and unjustified, so it fits the Trump agenda pretty well.

Chinese total CO2 production has gone up since 2011 from 27% to 31% of the world total while America's has gone down from 17% to 14%. 

Regarding China's right to build 800 coal fired plants, well, certainly they can do it.  But we don't have to be fools in staying with a plan that rewards them at our expense.  You support the Chinese Communist regime if you wish.  We'll take care of our own needs in the meanwhile.  The argument is over for the next four years, at least. 

[pegelli]

Chinese total CO2 production has gone up since 2011 from 27% to 31% of the world total while America's has gone down from 17% to 14%. 

since you keep repeating yourself I'm going to resort to the same: per capita yours is still double and historically many times more. It's selfish to bow out now.

Regarding China's right to build 800 coal fired plants, well, certainly they can do it.  But we don't have to be fools in staying with a plan that rewards them at our expense.  You support the Chinese Communist regime if you wish.  We'll take care of our own needs in the meanwhile.  The argument is over for the next four years, at least.

How much US money would have gone to China?  I think nothing so that's just paroting another fake fact from the GOP media. You really need to read up a bit broader then that to get the whole picture.
And why are you forgetting the other positive measures China is taking to lower their emissions in other areas and only focus on the negative aspect, this is a well known FOX trait, raise havoc over the negatives and totally forget the positive side. You need to look at the total package. And yes, the argument may be over, however the feeling of contempt for this Trump selfish act isn't.

[Alan Klein]

since you keep repeating yourself I'm going to resort to the same: per capita yours is still double and historically many times more. It's selfish to bow out now.
How much US money would have gone to China?  I think nothing so that's just paroting another fake fact from the GOP media. You really need to read up a bit broader then that to get the whole picture.
And why are you forgetting the other positive measures China is taking to lower their emissions in other areas and only focus on the negative aspect, this is a well known FOX trait, raise havoc over the negatives and totally forget the positive side. You need to look at the total package. And yes, the argument may be over, however the feeling of contempt for this Trump selfish act isn't.

Please don't be so high and mighty and so morally correct.    Just like the Dutch president didn't go out of his way to help the Turkish president and Turkish-Dutch citizens, America puts its interests first as well.  Americans elected Trump president because they wanted someone who would protect American interests again unlike Obama who wanted to be liked by the whole world.  America does plenty to help the world.  I don't see China going out of their way like America. 

[pegelli]

Please don't be so high and mighty and so morally correct.    Just like the Dutch president didn't go out of his way to help the Turkish president and Turkish-Dutch citizens, America puts its interests first as well.  Americans elected Trump president because they wanted someone who would protect American interests again unlike Obama who wanted to be liked by the whole world.  America does plenty to help the world.  I don't see China going out of their way like America.

Another Trumpism, just change the subject if you run out of arguments (btw on a topic you didn't understand either). They elected Trump to clean the swamp, however the contrary is happening, but I think that discussion is being held in a different thread. At least China stays in the Paris accord, a better position then the US.

[Alan Klein]

Another Trumpism, just change the subject if you run out of arguments (btw on a topic you didn't understand either). They elected Trump to clean the swamp, however the contrary is happening, but I think that discussion is being held in a different thread. At least China stays in the Paris accord, a better position then the US.

China gains by staying in the Paris Accords.  America loses. 

[Alan Klein]

Larsen C Break Off Imminent: Delaware-Sized Iceberg Attached to Antarctica by Just 3 Miles of Ice

https://weather.com/science/environment/news/larsen-c-ice-shelf-break-imminent-delaware-sized-iceberg-barely-hanging-on