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Author Topic: Skepticism about Climate Change  (Read 209993 times)

Farmer

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #500 on: July 01, 2017, 08:45:25 pm »

I think it's poor strategy on their part. Senator Marco Rubio gave a run at trying to turn Trump's antics back on him during the nomination process.  He failed miserably at it and had to apologize publicly for stooping and off-color jokes.  He was finished after that.  Apparently only Trump can get away with stuff like that.

That's because his supporters don't listen or think.  They just "believe" in Trump.  They're narrow minded, often bigoted, and rarely are able to follow any sort of complex discussion.  To them, Trump can do no wrong.  To the rest of the world, though, people were sick and tired of Trump by the time he was elected, let alone now, and it's important to serve it back to him or else it becomes acceptable for PotUS to act that way (hint: it's not).  Politicians and leaders have to be able to take any level of commentary, but reply with a level of dignity that befits the office.  They can speak out against those who are targeting them, but they need to have facts and speak to the issues instead of the people.  And that's a fundamental problem with Trump - to him, everything is personal.  If something doesn't boost his ego or standing or wealth, he's either not interested or against it.  He doesn't speak to any issue, he only speaks to Trump.  Anyone who thinks that he speaks for them because he aligns with their views is sadly mistaken.  He doesn't care one bit about anyone except himself.  It's not a question of if, but a question of when, he screws over those people who support him because he thinks it will benefit him (another hint: he's already done that in several areas).
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Phil Brown

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #501 on: July 01, 2017, 09:13:30 pm »

If something doesn't boost his ego or standing or wealth, he's either not interested or against it.  He doesn't speak to any issue, he only speaks to Trump.  Anyone who thinks that he speaks for them because he aligns with their views is sadly mistaken.  He doesn't care one bit about anyone except himself.  It's not a question of if, but a question of when, he screws over those people who support him because he thinks it will benefit him (another hint: he's already done that in several areas).

Hi Phil,

I agree with your analysis, and that's what makes the situation 'interesting' (looking in from the outside, I'd hate to be inside); When are his current 'supporters' able and willing to admit (to themselves) that they have been mistaken in their judgment of Trump at al. For people without direct vested interests, the man is a disaster. How long or what does it take for his supporters to come to their senses and realize that they have been used?

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #502 on: July 01, 2017, 10:56:31 pm »

The last few responses belong in Trump II, not here. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #503 on: July 01, 2017, 11:30:45 pm »

Here is the truth about China and their phony agreement to support Paris accord.  They're going to build more coal plants then ever in the next ten years.  It will make it impossible to meet Paris climate goals.  This is why Trump pulled out of Paris.  Because we would have honored it and restricted ourselves spending a lot of money while others like China would just go about doing business as usual.

"These Chinese corporations are building or planning to build more than 700 new coal plants at home and around the world, some in countries that today burn little or no coal, according to tallies compiled by Urgewald, an environmental group based in Berlin. Many of the plants are in China, but by capacity, roughly a fifth of these new coal power stations are in other countries.

Over all, 1,600 coal plants are planned or under construction in 62 countries, according to Urgewald’s tally, which uses data from the Global Coal Plant Tracker portal. The new plants would expand the world’s coal-fired power capacity by 43 percent.
The fleet of new coal plants would make it virtually impossible to meet the goals set in the Paris climate accord, which aims to keep the increase in global temperatures from preindustrial levels below 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit."


From The NY Times article linked below:

As Beijing Joins Climate Fight, Chinese Companies Build Coal Plants
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/climate/china-energy-companies-coal-plants-climate-change.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-1&action=click&contentCollection=Asia%20Pacific&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #505 on: July 02, 2017, 07:30:21 am »

Here is the truth about China and their phony agreement to support Paris accord.  They're going to build more coal plants then ever in the next ten years.  It will make it impossible to meet Paris climate goals.

Wrong, it is a vital component of the Paris agreement! These Intended Nationally Determined Contributions (INDCs) have been set differently for each country, based on its intended nationally determined contribution which is fair and ambitious, in light of its national circumstances, and how it contributes towards achieving the objective of the Convention as set out in its Article 2. The goals of the Paris agreement are the sum of those of all countries (except 2) together. So the temporary increase and subsequent decline of coal power for some countries is an integral part of the Paris agreements, not to make it impossible to achieve, on the contrary.

What you are suggesting is that Countries like the USA have been allowed to pollute the world's environment as their economy developed, but developing countries should not be allowed to do the same just because they started growing later.

Quote
This is why Trump pulled out of Paris.  Because we would have honored it and restricted ourselves spending a lot of money while others like China would just go about doing business as usual.

It's almost the opposite, the USA would like to restrict developing countries from developing themselves, which by the way would create a larger market for selling American products, and keep the position of the no.1 polluter of the world over time (one e.g. needs to look at the cumulative 'contributions' of CO2 emissions, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Co2_cumulative_emissions_1970-2013.svg).

That's a backward way of making America great, by trying to keep others small (which will therefore fail). And China has already started the conversion away from Coal powered energy generation (but cannot do that any faster due to their growing economy's need for energy) and will overtake the USA in serving international markets with cleaner energy products and know-how. They also build coal plants to replace older, more polluting plants. Not ideal, but part of the INDCs. The Chinese government has also halted many building plans of new coal powered plants, to speed up the conversion to cleaner energy.

It's like the USA is driving in reverse, and complains that the others are overtaking them. I've been told that the top producers of consumer products like Apple, cannot find adequately educated employees in the USA and is therefore forced to recruit in other countries. Things like travel-bans only make matters more difficult, and the USA also tries to increase their export of coal to other countries.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 07:35:47 am by BartvanderWolf »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #506 on: July 02, 2017, 11:33:28 am »

Planet Earth First - 21 colorful images from the G20 demonstration in Hamburg

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/g20-protestwelle-demonstration-auf-und-um-die-alster-fotostrecke-149135.html
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #507 on: July 02, 2017, 11:35:32 am »

Wrong, it is a vital component of the Paris agreement! These Intended Nationally Determined Contributions (INDCs) have been set differently for each country, based on its intended nationally determined contribution which is fair and ambitious, in light of its national circumstances, and how it contributes towards achieving the objective of the Convention as set out in its Article 2. The goals of the Paris agreement are the sum of those of all countries (except 2) together. So the temporary increase and subsequent decline of coal power for some countries is an integral part of the Paris agreements, not to make it impossible to achieve, on the contrary.

What you are suggesting is that Countries like the USA have been allowed to pollute the world's environment as their economy developed, but developing countries should not be allowed to do the same just because they started growing later.

It's almost the opposite, the USA would like to restrict developing countries from developing themselves, which by the way would create a larger market for selling American products, and keep the position of the no.1 polluter of the world over time (one e.g. needs to look at the cumulative 'contributions' of CO2 emissions, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Co2_cumulative_emissions_1970-2013.svg).

That's a backward way of making America great, by trying to keep others small (which will therefore fail). And China has already started the conversion away from Coal powered energy generation (but cannot do that any faster due to their growing economy's need for energy) and will overtake the USA in serving international markets with cleaner energy products and know-how. They also build coal plants to replace older, more polluting plants. Not ideal, but part of the INDCs. The Chinese government has also halted many building plans of new coal powered plants, to speed up the conversion to cleaner energy.

It's like the USA is driving in reverse, and complains that the others are overtaking them. I've been told that the top producers of consumer products like Apple, cannot find adequately educated employees in the USA and is therefore forced to recruit in other countries. Things like travel-bans only make matters more difficult, and the USA also tries to increase their export of coal to other countries.

Cheers,
Bart
I'm afraid you bought into the BS too.  China is just transferring its coal production out of its own country where they are polluting their own cities to the rest of the world.  There will be a net increase in CO2 and other elements that warm the world's climate. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #508 on: July 03, 2017, 07:10:57 am »

I'm afraid you bought into the BS too.  China is just transferring its coal production out of its own country where they are polluting their own cities to the rest of the world.  There will be a net increase in CO2 and other elements that warm the world's climate.

Why does that matter to you if you don't think that climate warming is caused by human activities?
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pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #509 on: July 03, 2017, 08:37:54 am »

I'm afraid you bought into the BS too.  China is just transferring its coal production out of its own country where they are polluting their own cities to the rest of the world.   
The only BS is coming from the US here, per capita CO2 emission is more than 3 times that of China and Trump wants to open more coal mines to export more.
And you're upset China is taking actions in line the Paris agreement while the US unilaterally stepping out? That's the real BS happening here.

There will be a net increase in CO2 and other elements that warm the world's climate.
I'm glad you have understood at least one element of the basis for the Paris agreements, allthough the per capita contribution of the US is at the top of the pareto so it would have been very justified to stay on board. 
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #510 on: July 03, 2017, 08:45:18 am »

Why does that matter to you if you don't think that climate warming is caused by human activities?
because America and other countries in the accord will spend additional money reducing carbon use while China a major producer of the same will be allowed to build hundreds of new polluting coal fired plants throughout the world. 

Rob C

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #511 on: July 03, 2017, 09:03:07 am »

Generally, when one is in a hole from which escape seems a good idea, the first step towards escape is the stopping of any further digging.

However, in line with recent global changes, waiting for the flood is an alternative which, whilst not replacing the first one, requires a little more patience. But hey, one may get to like the hole... one might even be a good swimmer.

;-)

Rob C

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #512 on: July 03, 2017, 09:04:32 am »

because America and other countries in the accord will spend additional money reducing carbon use while China a major producer of the same will be allowed to build hundreds of new polluting coal fired plants throughout the world.
America will spend nothing, despite it being by far the largest producer of warming gases, more then 3 times more per capita vs. China, because they're pulling out of the agreement. In the past the ratio was even worse so there is no need to be upset with China, I think the rest of the world can be rightfully upset with the US not taking responsibility for their enormous GHG emisions of the past as well as what is still being emitted today.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 09:08:32 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #513 on: July 03, 2017, 10:19:27 am »

It was a bad deal.   Americans are tired picking up the tab while others keep their money or make even more.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #514 on: July 03, 2017, 10:42:39 am »

It was a bad deal.   Americans are tired picking up the tab while others keep their money or make even more.

Tired picking up the tab???? I almost spilled my coffee from laughing when I read that, how naive can one be to even think that?

America is the one who's over-spending on the CO2 budget. The per capita production of CO2 is excessive, also compared to China, and the Trump administration is trying to make things worse.

Besides, the Paris agreement was modeled by the contributions that all (except 2 countries at the time) are able/willing/obliged to make. So yes, America has to do a lot to come down to the level of pollution of most others, to begin with. The world is starting to get fed up with having to endure the egocentric approach of the USA, so sanctions may be required. And it just got worse by announcing to pull out and join Nicaragua and Syria as the odd ones out. BTW, Nicaragua didn't join because it felt that all needed to commit stronger (with penalties for underachievement) than was agreed.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #515 on: July 03, 2017, 11:32:29 am »

Tired picking up the tab???? I almost spilled my coffee from laughing when I read that, how naive can one be to even think that?

America is the one who's over-spending on the CO2 budget. The per capita production of CO2 is excessive, also compared to China, and the Trump administration is trying to make things worse.

Besides, the Paris agreement was modeled by the contributions that all (except 2 countries at the time) are able/willing/obliged to make. So yes, America has to do a lot to come down to the level of pollution of most others, to begin with. The world is starting to get fed up with having to endure the egocentric approach of the USA, so sanctions may be required. And it just got worse by announcing to pull out and join Nicaragua and Syria as the odd ones out. BTW, Nicaragua didn't join because it felt that all needed to commit stronger (with penalties for underachievement) than was agreed.

Cheers,
Bart
China produces more CO2 in the world than any other country including America.  (27% China vs. 17% US)  Why should they be given the right to build 800 coal fired plants throughout the world that will eliminate any CO2 reduction advantage for the world?  80% of the world's new coal plants will be built by China.  Meanwhile, you and we have to restrict ourselves adding costs to our economies making us poorer while China gets richer.  You'd be foolish to agree to this deal too.   

Regarding sanctions, how could you impose them when there are no penalties incorporated in the Paris Accord at all?  For us, the Chinese, you and everyone else.  That's the other reason the Accord is unfair.  Because America if it stayed in would have followed and paid while others would cheat like on the 2% promised payments regarding NATO. Trump is right when he said Americans don't know how to make good deals. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #516 on: July 03, 2017, 12:50:34 pm »

China produces more CO2 in the world than any other country including America.  (27% China vs. 17% US)

You conveniently forgot to mention that China has more than 4x as many inhabitants.

Source: http://edgar.jrc.ec.europa.eu/overview.php?v=CO2ts1990-2015
World emission: 36240721 Ktons CO2 in 2015
China: 10641788.99  Ktons CO2 (= 29.4%)
China, HongKong SAR: 45703.37  Ktons CO2 (= 0.1%)
China, Macao SAR: 2703.53  Ktons CO2 (= 0.0%)
China, Taiwan Province of: 279173.99 Ktons CO2 (= 0.8%)
China, all regions: 10969369.88 Ktons CO2 (= 30.3%)
USA: 5172337.73 Ktons CO2 (=14.3%)

Population (1 July, 2016), source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations):
World: 7,466,964,280
China: 1,403,500,365 (=18.8%)
USA: 322,179,605 (=4.3%)

So China has 4.36x as many inhabitants but produces 'only' 2.12x as much CO2.

World: 4.35 tons CO2 per capita.
China: 7.82 tons CO2 per capita.
USA:  16.05 tons CO2 per capita.

Therefore, based on these numbers, the USA emits twice as much CO2 per capita compared to China.
So who is serving the world the worst deal?

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Regarding sanctions, how could you impose them when there are no penalties incorporated in the Paris Accord at all?

Simple, especially since the USA is pulling out of existing trade agreements. Negotiations for new agreements can now add a Carbon tax component. You have to thank Trump for that opportunity.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:01:37 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #517 on: July 03, 2017, 01:16:00 pm »

You conveniently forgot to mention that China has more than 4x as many inhabitants.

Therefore, based on these numbers, the USA emits twice as much CO2 per capita compared to China.
So who is serving the world the worst deal?

Simple, especially since the USA is pulling out of existing trade agreements. Negotiations for new agreements can now add a Carbon tax component. You have to thank Trump for that opportunity.

Cheers,
Bart
It is true that three-quarters of China is living in the dark ages so their per capita CO2 levels are less than America's.  But the point is they still are the largest CO2 polluter in the world.  To give them the right to build coal fired electric plants around the world to pollute everywhere else while we and you cut back at additional expense to us is just stupid.  You guys can spend your money if you want too.  There's nothing stopping you from proceeding with Paris without the US.  But I'll make you a side bet that the whole thing is going to fall apart in two years or less as everyone goes their own way.   

Regarding carbon taxes, America pollutes less then most other countries when building things. Our manufacturing procedures are very efficient and pollute less.   So you'd have to incorporate those elements.  But in the end, America won't agree to carbon taxes as long as Trump is president.  He'll add costs onto your exports to us if you add carbon taxes on our products to you.  It won't happen. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #518 on: July 03, 2017, 01:25:20 pm »


China, all regions: 10969369.88 Ktons CO2 (= 30.3%)
USA: 5172337.73 Ktons CO2 (=14.3%)


Cheers,
Bart
By the way, I just noticed something interesting about your figures.  The figures I quoted were from 2011 when China produced 27% vs. America's of 17% of the world's total CO2.  The figures you posted which I assume are more recent are:  China 30% vs America 14%.  So it just proves that China is becoming a bigger polluter in the world than ever as America is going down.  China is now 214% greater than America when in 2011 they were only 160% greater than America.  And you want to reward them by letting them build 800 more coal fired plants.

pegelli

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Re: Skepticism about Climate Change
« Reply #519 on: July 03, 2017, 02:01:45 pm »

By the way, I just noticed something interesting about your figures.  The figures I quoted were from 2011 when China produced 27% vs. America's of 17% of the world's total CO2.  The figures you posted which I assume are more recent are:  China 30% vs America 14%.  So it just proves that China is becoming a bigger polluter in the world than ever as America is going down.  China is now 214% greater than America when in 2011 they were only 160% greater than America.  And you want to reward them by letting them build 800 more coal fired plants.
It makes no sense to do this by country, you have to scale for the number of people living there. The US is still by far a larger per capita producer then China and doing nothing about it. China is also shutting down many less efficient coal plants to compensate for their higher energy demands, that costs money too. Also it's not only about emissions now but how much inefficient excess you produced in the past. So from both perspectives the US is taking the cheap/easy way out no matter how you look at it.
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pieter, aka pegelli
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