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Author Topic: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool  (Read 911369 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #840 on: September 13, 2015, 10:28:50 pm »

It didn't get into 0.9.8...
will it be a nice idea to have a command line parameter (for relevant dcamprof commands), that if used explicitly will embed some comments into JSONs and pass also then to icc/dcp in appropriate tags as to what were command line parameters of dcamprof used to build JSONs and dcps/iccs (so the final dcp or icc output can have somewhat complete history how it was built if the you so desire, for debugging purposes for example)...  $0.02
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #841 on: September 14, 2015, 12:50:04 am »

0.9.8 build for Windows ( mingw = dcamprof.exe + libgomp_64-1.dll + both manual & tutorial / = copies of Torger's web pages / in 3 formats : IE archive .mht, Mozilla archive .maff and regular .pdf ) : https://app.box.com/s/aj53xxbw2jy77uw4vdilk6ubathikb8p
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #842 on: September 14, 2015, 01:46:40 am »

Just to test whether a wide gamut screen is necessary to view your posted sample I've uploaded a screengrab of the first attempt to confirm whether the red tulips of the DCamProf versions are suppose to have less definition and be on the slightly magenta side of red.

I'm viewing this on a Colormunki Display calibrated LG IPS 27" LED display with its profile embedded in the screengrab. I find the C1 the more realistic rendering and seeing its color issues described by torger.

Just a suggestion but I'ld find a test image having a wide range of saturated objects but exposed to look as real as the scene and not have over cranked color. I don't find this image as looking anything close to reality when it comes to flower rendering.

It does not seem like your LG is a wide gamut monitor because the attached image is severely clipped. It's probably more close to an sRGB monitor? The image won't work on that, that's why I pasted a warning over the whole image. C1 rendering will work as the profile has built-in gamut mapping. I will probably introduce a gamut mapping option to DCamProf at some point, but currently you need to manually adjust post-processing to fit into your gamut.

Concerning if color is over-cranked or not it may be that, but it's not intentionally so. If it is then it's due to precision errors in the profiling, which could be the case as it's only a inkjet semi-glossy target that has been used to match high saturation reds and I'm not sure how well it works on the tulips. At some point I may try base it on SSF and real tulip data from the FReD database.

In any case C1 is under-cranked for sure (gamut-mapped to a smaller gamut), and the tulips should be more saturated than sRGB can handle, so if displayed in a small space the results will not be great. The intention with using the tulip image is to test behavior in the range that is outside sRGB, so the base colorimetric accuracy is not really that important for the test itself. I just needed ultra-high saturation colors with fine tonal gradients, and that image is excellent for that purpose.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 01:49:46 am by torger »
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #843 on: September 14, 2015, 01:52:09 am »

will it be a nice idea to have a command line parameter (for relevant dcamprof commands), that if used explicitly will embed some comments into JSONs and pass also then to icc/dcp in appropriate tags as to what were command line parameters of dcamprof used to build JSONs and dcps/iccs (so the final dcp or icc output can have somewhat complete history how it was built if the you so desire, for debugging purposes for example)...  $0.02

Argyll can do that, embed lots of debug data in the ICC profile. Unfortunately DNG profiles does not have the same possibility to embed debug data (AFAIK), and although I think the idea is good I'm not prioritizing features that can only be implemented in one of the formats.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #844 on: September 14, 2015, 04:02:56 am »

I might adjust the curve handling in the neutral tone reproduction operator further, I'll do some testing. I'm not 100% sure the 0.9.8 change was 100% good.

A reason I was using a RGB-HSV curve as luminance guide earlier was that the S-dip in the shadow range becomes a bit darker and duller with the pure luminance curve, which had some negative effect on shadowy skin tones. The difference is very small, but it's there. As the curves are typically designed using some sort of RGB curve, it may be wise to have a luminance that better matches RGB. I guess that if you do design the curve with luminance curve in mind you would simple not make as big S-dip in the shadow range and then you'd get rid of the dullness, so it's possibly not the fault of the luminance curve as such.

The RGB(-HSV) curve treats R G and B equal, that is over-estimates the luminance of red and blue. This means that dark colors with low green gets lighter. It also makes specifically saturated reds lighter and tonally tighter spaced, which is why the ACR rendering has worse tone separation in the tulips. The same can to some extent be observed in the blue range, but the perceptual effect is much larger in the red range (as saturated blues are dark anyway).

A pure RGB curve like C1 is using for its film-curve has the same problem with tonal compression of reds, but their ICC profile is compensated for that. Overall ACR seems to "suffer" more of the look side-effects the curve has as their profiles are not as compensated (I think they originally intended that the RGB-HSV curve would be used as-is with no compensations), while C1 has much more designed color.

There's no surprise C1 has better reputation than ACR when it comes to color. It's not an issue of the DNG profile format though, with designed profiles you can get the color you want, DCamProf profiles look the same with ICC as with DCP.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 04:07:24 am by torger »
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #845 on: September 14, 2015, 05:33:38 am »

A bit OT, sorry...

W. Faust sent me spectral data for its C1 IT8 chart, and those are in either .cxf or .cgt format. Does someone have a way to convert one of them into a CGATS style file ? It seems cxf is used by X-rite but I i1profiler refuses to load this one.
Thanks.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #846 on: September 14, 2015, 05:38:56 am »

A bit OT, sorry...

W. Faust sent me spectral data for its C1 IT8 chart, and those are in either .cxf or .cgt format. Does someone have a way to convert one of them into a CGATS style file ? It seems cxf is used by X-rite but I i1profiler refuses to load this one.
Thanks.

They are text files and .cgt is in CGATS format
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #847 on: September 14, 2015, 06:01:10 am »

Indeed, I should have said Argyll CTI2 or CTI3 format instead. As is the .cgt file is not recognized ?
cxf is an xml file.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #848 on: September 14, 2015, 06:52:11 am »

Indeed, I should have said Argyll CTI2 or CTI3 format instead. As is the .cgt file is not recognized ?
Edit the header to make it CGATS then you can use it in dcamprof (if that's what you are trying to do)
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #849 on: September 14, 2015, 07:12:48 am »

Problem is to get the spectra, it has columns for both nm and amplitude, I haven't seen that before. Usually the nm is encoded into the column name.

You can manually edit the file to remove the nm columns and add nm to tho column name, but it's quite tedious. I'll look into making a parser for this column layout. Argyll has some conversion tools, txt2ti3, kodak2ti3 etc but I don't think it has anyone for this format.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #850 on: September 14, 2015, 07:55:16 am »

Here you go. I will add the feature to parse these IT8.7/2 CGATS files directly with make-target to the next release.
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #851 on: September 14, 2015, 08:00:46 am »

Great, thanks again !

Back to dcamprof, it seems I can't get a true black point in C1 no matter how I try to mimic its built-in curves & profiles. Is it related to the curve handling you talked about earlier ?
This can be fixed easily once in photoshop, so no big deal, just thought I'd ask.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #852 on: September 14, 2015, 08:23:43 am »

Great, thanks again !

Back to dcamprof, it seems I can't get a true black point in C1 no matter how I try to mimic its built-in curves & profiles. Is it related to the curve handling you talked about earlier ?
This can be fixed easily once in photoshop, so no big deal, just thought I'd ask.

It's sounds more likely related to ICC LUT generation, the code that I have rewritten, patched and adjusted like a million times :)

I assume that with the bundled profile you get pure black RGB = 0,0,0 and when you switch to your DCamProf profile it's no longer black? Rather than a bug it could possibly also be the case that the bundled profile makes some sort of black subtraction, which DCamProf doesn't do. It would be relatively easy to add though.

If you can describe a bit more in detail what behavior you expect/want (perhaps with an example) I can look closer at it.
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #853 on: September 14, 2015, 08:31:50 am »

I'll send you some examples tonight.
With dcamprof the very dark areas can be a bit muddy, while with C1 profiles they have a crisper/contrastier look (maybe thanks to a steeper curve in the very low end that is hard to recreate with C1 curve editor).
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #854 on: September 14, 2015, 09:49:35 am »

A bit OT, sorry...

W. Faust sent me spectral data for its C1 IT8 chart, and those are in either .cxf or .cgt format. Does someone have a way to convert one of them into a CGATS style file ? It seems cxf is used by X-rite but I i1profiler refuses to load this one.
Thanks.


BabelColor PatchTool will convert for you, for example see attached

PS: I do not think that W. Faust does individual measurements, just for batches... so you might want to experience the pain of doing several passes over IT8 with your own spectrophotometer... or not.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #855 on: September 14, 2015, 11:48:14 am »

BabelColor PatchTool will convert for you, for example see attached

PS: I do not think that W. Faust does individual measurements, just for batches... so you might want to experience the pain of doing several passes over IT8 with your own spectrophotometer... or not.

Correct, Wolf Faust produces small batches that get measured (see footnote under quality). Depending on the material it's produced on (reflective/transmissive and film/paper brand), they can be more or less recent productions (exposures) with his own equipment. Some targets have a larger gamut than IT8s from other sources, which can help with profiling. The quality is excellent, and the price is usually much better than of other makes. Custom targets can also be produced, and Wolf Faust understands the difference between using white backing behind the target or not.

Cheers,
Bart
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Frederic_H

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #856 on: September 14, 2015, 12:51:11 pm »

I wanted to do my own measurements but according to Mr Faust my i1pro - early rev A model - could experience important errors with high densities. So far the profiles built with his batch spectral data are in tune with the CC24 based ones.
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AlterEgo

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #857 on: September 14, 2015, 02:33:15 pm »

a question for Torger :

what are the minimum set fields that shall be present in .ti3 target file ("[target.ti3]") for dcamprof test-profile command ?
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #858 on: September 14, 2015, 02:39:18 pm »

Release of the day: 0.9.9

Added the IT8.7/2 parsing and refined the change I made yesterday in 0.9.8.

Now the tone reproduction uses both RGB-HSV based luminance and pure luminance to get "best of both worlds". The pure luminance is used for high chroma colors, such as the red tulips, while the luminance based on a RGB-HSV curve is used for low and normal saturation colors.

The pure luminance curve is more "correct", but as a curve is as a perceptual model is not "correct" anyway it's not really valid argument. What I've seen earlier (together with the RT team) is that the RGB-HSV-based luminance lighten shadows in a way that simply looks better. The difference is very small, but after some further testing I decided that it was worth bringing it back. With a smooth transition into a pure luminance curve for high saturation colors the good tonal separation properties are kept.
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torger

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Re: DCamProf - a new camera profiling tool
« Reply #859 on: September 14, 2015, 02:42:09 pm »

what are the minimum set fields that shall be present in .ti3 target file ("[target.ti3]") for dcamprof test-profile command ?

it depends. You can regenerate XYZ values from spectra if spectra is available in the file, otherwise it needs XYZ. Likewise it can regenerate RGB values from SSF if SSF is provided, otherwise it needs RGB values.

With no spectra, the minimum should be:

SAMPLE_ID RGB_R RGB_G RGB_B XYZ_X XYZ_Y XYZ_Z

(it currently does not parse Lab values, it wants XYZ)
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