Canson Price Increase is Disturbing to Say the Least

[deanwork]

Is anyone else disgusted as I am about Canson raising their prices 17% in the last 8 months? This is supposed to be a deflationary global economy not an inflationary period. There was some talk that they broke away from Arches for some reason. But that's not my problem.

I just ordered a 44" roll of Canson Rag Photogaphiqe, the media that I use the most of, and it is now just about $100.00 more per roll than the Hahnemuhle Photorag 308.  I mean come on! Is their coating that much more expensive to make than everyone else's. If I didn't have so many editons out there on this paper from the last 5 years I'd just stop immediately. I'm going to have to think carefully about this. The paper does flake less than Photorag and is a hair sharper, but enough is enough! Damn. I think I am going to have to go back to Hahnemuhle for matte rag also if this is a permanent increase. People have also had problems with them not sending out the inventory on time. My only worry is that Hah is going to use this as an excuse to raise their prices again too, and that would put me right back to where I was initially, but what the hell. That is a big difference to my  bottom line.

John

[chez]

Is anyone else disgusted as I am about Canson raising their prices 17% in the last 8 months? This is supposed to be a deflationary global economy not an inflationary period. There was some talk that they broke away from Arches for some reason. But that's not my problem.

I just ordered a 44" roll of Canson Rag Photogaphiqe, the media that I use the most of, and it is now just about $100.00 more per roll than the Hahnemuhle Photorag 308.  I mean come on! Is their coating that much more expensive to make than everyone else's. If I didn't have so many editons out there on this paper from the last 5 years I'd just stop immediately. I'm going to have to think carefully about this. The paper does flake less than Photorag and is a hair sharper, but enough is enough! Damn. I think I am going to have to go back to Hahnemuhle for matte rag also if this is a permanent increase. People have also had problems with them not sending out the inventory on time. My only worry is that Hah is going to use this as an excuse to raise their prices again too, and that would put me right back to where I was initially, but what the hell. That is a big difference to my  bottom line.

John

What do you sell your work for. The cost of paper in my prints is only about 15% of what I sell the prints for. An increase in this cost by 17% is really quite negligible. If the paper delivers, charge another $5 for each print and you are good. I don't see an issue.

[dwswager]

Is anyone else disgusted as I am about Canson raising their prices 17% in the last 8 months? This is supposed to be a deflationary global economy not an inflationary period. There was some talk that they broke away from Arches for some reason. But that's not my problem.

I just ordered a 44" roll of Canson Rag Photogaphiqe, the media that I use the most of, and it is now just about $100.00 more per roll than the Hahnemuhle Photorag 308.  I mean come on! Is their coating that much more expensive to make than everyone else's. If I didn't have so many editons out there on this paper from the last 5 years I'd just stop immediately. I'm going to have to think carefully about this. The paper does flake less than Photorag and is a hair sharper, but enough is enough! Damn. I think I am going to have to go back to Hahnemuhle for matte rag also if this is a permanent increase. People have also had problems with them not sending out the inventory on time. My only worry is that Hah is going to use this as an excuse to raise their prices again too, and that would put me right back to where I was initially, but what the hell. That is a big difference to my  bottom line.

John

Not sure where you live, but in the U.S. we have experienced tremendous inflation over the last decade.  Federal Reserve monetary policy coupled with $1.4 Trillion budget deficits have been killing us.  Anyone remember when $400 Billion deficits got people outraged?

As to the price of a particular paper, you either pay it or choose an alternative.  Doesn't mean you have to like it, but that is the way the world works.  The good part is we have an abundance of excellent alternatives in almost every paper category.  44"x50' rolls of Epson Hot/Cold Press Bright/Natural are like $203 at B&H.  About $150 cheaper than Canson Infinity Rag Photographique 310 gsm!  Or use Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, Red River, Moab, Museo alternatives!

[hugowolf]

These are hardly alternatives to Canon Rag Photographique 310. Not even close. Good papers maybe, but the natual is very dull and the bright is way too OBA bright. Hahnemuhle PhotoRag is the closest alternative, and it isn't as good.

Brian A

[Alan Goldhammer]

Not sure where you live, but in the U.S. we have experienced tremendous inflation over the last decade.  Federal Reserve monetary policy coupled with $1.4 Trillion budget deficits have been killing us.  Anyone remember when $400 Billion deficits got people outraged?

Where are you getting your data?  Inflation has been negligible ever since the great recession started in 2008.  The collapse of oil prices last year put more money in the pockets of consumers.  The Federal Reserve's Quantitative Easing has had zero impact upon inflation in this country and the budget deficits on a yearly basis are lower than they have been in some years (as a % of GDP).  My social security payments are pegged to inflation and in the last two years I've received hardly any increase at all.  Since Obama took over as President in January of 2009 inflation has averaged 1.7%/year, hardly "tremendous."

[Paul2660]

John

What are the differences in look feel between Platine and the photographique?  Atlex has 24 inch rolls of Platine @ 159.00 which is an increase from the $154.00 they used to charge and the 24 inch rolls of photographieue are 184.00. I have started to notice some QA issues with Platine.  I am curious if the photogrphique is worth moving to.  So far the most expensive Canson paper I use is rhe Arches matte which makes beautiful prints but is pricey.

It's to bad that Canson has not picked up the padded cores that BC uses on Canvas. I find that on most Canaon rolls that last 10 feet are damaged by the imprint issue which creates a pressure line like with canvas. With Canson the imprint is hard enough to ruin those last 10 feet unless a dry mount press can be used.
Thanks
Paul

[Ernst Dinkla]

The Euro Dollar rate should have made European made papers less expensive in the USA. The oil prices should have reduced transport costs too. I heard on the Photokina 2014 about a conflict between Canson and Felix Schoeller. For years Canson had its papers coated for inkjet by FS and now FS applies identical coatings on a new range of Fine Art papers for its own paper catalog. My paper white spectral plots confirm the realtion between the coatings for several papers. I wonder whether that conflict is the root of what is discussed here; possible price and production changes.

BTW, for years there was no Platine alternative. Today the spectral plot and other properties suggest Felix Schoeller J23000 True Rag Silk Satin 305 gsm is very similar. Remains the question; where can we get that paper?


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
September 2014, 650+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[narikin]

Hahn gives you 12m to 15m of Canson, roll for roll, so Canson is usually better value, when you factor that in.

There was 15% off all Canson orders at IT supplies/Atlex late last year - I bought a good supply then, but wish I'd bought even more now.

Love Platine, and prefer it over HPRag too.

[hugowolf]

What are the differences in look feel between Platine and the photographique?  Atlex has 24 inch rolls of Platine @ 159.00 which is an increase from the $154.00 they used to charge and the 24 inch rolls of photographieue are 184.00. I have started to notice some QA issues with Platine.  I am curious if the photogrphique is worth moving to.  So far the most expensive Canson paper I use is rhe Arches matte which makes beautiful prints but is pricey.
...

Canson Rag Photographique and Canson Platine aren't comparable. You could compare Platine with Baryta Photographique. Platine is cotton based and the Baryta pulp based. The surfaces are somewhat similar, but the Platine has no OBAs and the baryta a small amount of OBA content.

Brian A

[Geraldo Garcia]

What are the differences in look feel between Platine and the photographique?  Atlex has 24 inch rolls of Platine @ 159.00 which is an increase from the $154.00 they used to charge and the 24 inch rolls of photographieue are 184.00. I have started to notice some QA issues with Platine.  I am curious if the photogrphique is worth moving to.  So far the most expensive Canson paper I use is rhe Arches matte which makes beautiful prints but is pricey.

Keep in mind that Canson sells two papers with "photographique" in the name. The original post is about Canson Rag Photographique, a smooth matte OBA-free rag paper that has a couple of weight options and a double sided version, while Platine is a glossy/semi-gloss OBA-free rag paper. The "other" photographique is Canson Baryta Photographique, a smooth glossy/semi-gloss alpha-cellulose paper with a barium sulphate coating (and OBA content).

Edit: Brian answered while I was typing.

[dwswager]

Where are you getting your data?  Inflation has been negligible ever since the great recession started in 2008.  The collapse of oil prices last year put more money in the pockets of consumers.  The Federal Reserve's Quantitative Easing has had zero impact upon inflation in this country and the budget deficits on a yearly basis are lower than they have been in some years (as a % of GDP).  My social security payments are pegged to inflation and in the last two years I've received hardly any increase at all.  Since Obama took over as President in January of 2009 inflation has averaged 1.7%/year, hardly "tremendous."

Only because how inflation is now calculated.  They took food and energy out of the mix and then adjust for increased 'features'.  There are lies, damn lies and there are statistics.  Same with unemployment.  Stop counting people that haven't found a job in the last 6 months and like magic, unemployment looks great.  The reason food and energy prices rose so much was Quantitative Easing.  Those commodities are denominated in U.S. Dollars on the world market and so rose to match the declining value of the dollar.  Same with the stock market.  We are only lucky that other countries are even more stupid than we are!

While a single product is not a good read on inflation, I will give an easy example:  Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey Gold Standard, Double Rich Chocolate, 5 Pound:  Price today $57.99, Price in 2011 $37.25  Ground chuck is another good barometer. After housing, food and energy make up the bulk of non-discretionary consumer spending.

Dudley said said that while food prices may be rising, the cost of some other goods are going down, which evens out the overall inflation picture. The Fed's inflation estimates do not take into account volatile energy or food prices. The crowd was not impressed:

"Today you can buy an iPad 2 that costs the same as an iPad 1 that is twice as powerful," he said referring to Apple Inc's (AAPL.O) latest handheld tablet computer hitting stories on Friday.

"You have to look at the prices of all things," he said.

This prompted guffaws and widespread murmuring from the audience, with one audience member calling the comment "tone deaf."

"I can't eat an iPad," another quipped.[/b]

[deanwork]

Back when Hahnemuhle raised their prices a few years ago they stated that the cost of producing cotton had increased due to higher energy costs. That was probably true and appropriate. I don't see what Canson's excuse is. And no there is no equivalent to Rag Photographique on the market that I've seen, but I"m certainly going to look into it.

But that is very interesting Ernst, that Schoeller is is doing their coatings. The coating is what makes this paper. It doesn't flake like Photorag, it is sharper, a little better color gamut, nicer surface,  pigment whiteners, and better dmax. If they keep this up they will price themselves out of the market.

I hope we can buy Schoeller papers in the US. I'll look for them but haven't seen them so far. I'm very interested.

The reason we have low inflation globally is because overall there are no jobs to speak of that pay anything and people can't spend what they don't have, especially artists.

john

The Euro Dollar rate should have made European made papers less expensive in the USA. The oil prices should have reduced transport costs too. I heard on the Photokina 2014 about a conflict between Canson and Felix Schoeller. For years Canson had its papers coated for inkjet by FS and now FS applies identical coatings on a new range of Fine Art papers for its own paper catalog. My paper white spectral plots confirm the realtion between the coatings for several papers. I wonder whether that conflict is the root of what is discussed here; possible price and production changes.

BTW, for years there was no Platine alternative. Today the spectral plot and other properties suggest Felix Schoeller J23000 True Rag Silk Satin 305 gsm is very similar. Remains the question; where can we get that paper?


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
September 2014, 650+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[Paul2660]

Keep in mind that Canson sells two papers with "photographique" in the name. The original post is about Canson Rag Photographique, a smooth matte OBA-free rag paper that has a couple of weight options and a double sided version, while Platine is a glossy/semi-gloss OBA-free rag paper. The "other" photographique is Canson Baryta Photographique, a smooth glossy/semi-gloss alpha-cellulose paper with a barium sulphate coating (and OBA content).

Edit: Brian answered while I was typing.

Thanks, I missed the fact it was a matte paper.  For matte, I still prefer the Breathing Color line, mainly Optica 1 (I realize many don't like the paper as it has OBA
content, but for fine details it's great.  Or Epson Hot Press, which I have started to use more often now.  In the smooth finish.

For the deckled prints I make, I always still use Canson Arches, again excellent details.

Paul

[Misirlou]

Dudley said said that while food prices may be rising, the cost of some other goods are going down, which evens out the overall inflation picture. The Fed's inflation estimates do not take into account volatile energy or food prices. The crowd was not impressed:

"Today you can buy an iPad 2 that costs the same as an iPad 1 that is twice as powerful," he said referring to Apple Inc's (AAPL.O) latest handheld tablet computer hitting stories on Friday.

"You have to look at the prices of all things," he said.

This prompted guffaws and widespread murmuring from the audience, with one audience member calling the comment "tone deaf."

"I can't eat an iPad," another quipped.[/b]

"But Madame, they have no bread!"

"Then let them eat Apples!"

Not hard to imagine an iPad serving as the "circus" in bread and circuses either...

[Alan Goldhammer]

Only because how inflation is now calculated.  They took food and energy out of the mix and then adjust for increased 'features'.  There are lies, damn lies and there are statistics.  Same with unemployment.  Stop counting people that haven't found a job in the last 6 months and like magic, unemployment looks great.  The reason food and energy prices rose so much was Quantitative Easing.  Those commodities are denominated in U.S. Dollars on the world market and so rose to match the declining value of the dollar.  Same with the stock market.  We are only lucky that other countries are even more stupid than we are!

That's total BS.  You can easily download the FRED database and look at all manners of inflation over many different time spans.  It's a simple Excel plugin.  Anyway you look at inflation it is non-existent.  Obviously you can find single items here and there that will be counter stories but these are a very small percentage of the total numbers of goods and services that the US consumes each year.  How can you possibly say that energy prices rose with QE when we have had a total collapse here?  This is really way off topic so I'll not discuss it any more.  You can find out the right answers in an Econ 101 textbook.

[Geraldo Garcia]

But that is very interesting Ernst, that Schoeller is is doing their coatings. The coating is what makes this paper. It doesn't flake like Photorag, it is sharper, a little better color gamut, nicer surface,  pigment whiteners, and better dmax. If they keep this up they will price themselves out of the market.

According to Canson Infinity's marketing director (if we can trust marketing people), theirs (or Schoeller's) 3 layer curtain coating is not the main reason behind less flaking. They say the main culprit for flaking usually is in the paper base: Some partially loose cotton fibers packed on the surface (under the coating) expand when absorbing water from the inks and lift the coating. They claim to use "gluing agents" during the paper base manufacture to avoid or at least reduce this occurrence.

If that is true a different paper with the same coating may not have the same flaking resistance.

[Alan Goldhammer]

According to Canson Infinity's marketing director (if we can trust marketing people), theirs (or Schoeller's) 3 layer curtain coating is not the main reason behind less flaking. They say the main culprit for flaking usually is in the paper base: Some partially loose cotton fibers packed on the surface (under the coating) expand when absorbing water from the inks and lift the coating. They claim to use "gluing agents" during the paper base manufacture to avoid or at least reduce this occurrence.

If that is true a different paper with the same coating may not have the same flaking resistance.

This sounds just like a marketing person.  Were this true it argues that they have something wrong with the paper making process.  Personally from a physico-chemical point of view I doubt this explanation.

[dwswager]

Product pricing is not, in any way, a function of production costs, unless there are readily available alternatives (competition).  If it is true that Canson Infinity Rag Photographique has no substitute (competition), then their pricing will be based soley on that price/supply that will maximize their profit.

To believe that the Federal Reserve can issue trillions of dollars worth of dollars into the market, putting trillions of dollars worth of debt on the books and it have no impact it to be totally naive.  If the Fed can't accurately set the price of a gallon of milk, to believe they can accurately set the price of money it equally naive.

Every Econ 101 book will tell you trade occurs when the value of two items is perceived to be equal. That is because that is the only time a monetary calculation can be made.  However, in reality, trade will only occur when the perceived value is unequal.  A photographic print is sold when the printer believes the money he is receiving is of more value than the print.  The buying will only buy when he perceives the print to me of more value than the money.  No calclation can be made because no one can know how much more the printer values the money than the print or how much more the buyer values the print over the money.  If the perceived value was equal, no trade would occur because the transaction costs involved.

[BJL]

Not sure where you live, but in the U.S. we have experienced tremendous inflation over the last decade.  Federal Reserve monetary policy coupled with $1.4 Trillion budget deficits have been killing us.  Anyone remember when $400 Billion deficits got people outraged?

"Tremendous inflation"? US inflation has been below 2% of the last three years and declining, reaching 0.8% in 2014 -- a rate so low that the main fear is the problems of deflation.  Also, the most recent deficit was $486 billion, down $195 billion from year before: that 1.4 trillion figure is a throwback to 2008-2009 and the years immediately following, peaking with the combined effects of the final (2008-2009) Bush budget, the economic collapse in late 2008, and the effect of the Obama stimulus package.

To quote Wall Street Journal:
Risk of Deflation Feeds Global Fears
Budget Deficit Returns to Prerecession Levels

[Martin Ranger]

To believe that the Federal Reserve can issue trillions of dollars worth of dollars into the market, putting trillions of dollars worth of debt on the books and it have no impact it to be totally naive.  If the Fed can't accurately set the price of a gallon of milk, to believe they can accurately set the price of money it equally naive.

It's not about believing. It's about facts. And those are pretty simple: there has not been an increase in inflation. Don't believe the official figures? Fine. How about this: http://bpp.mit.edu/usa/ ?

As for Canson pricing, the art paper market is not perfectly competitive, that is firms have pricing power. Still, (in a simple model) a fall in the marginal cost of production should lead to a fall in price, all things equal. My guess is, Canson is seeing an increase in demand, and decided to raise prices.