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Author Topic: DP2 Quattro  (Read 10469 times)

JV

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2014, 12:18:58 pm »

As mentioned I downloaded SPP today and generated TIFF files using it.

On a PC or on a Mac?  That seems to be key to the experience.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2014, 12:42:01 pm »

On a PC or on a Mac?  That seems to be key to the experience.

On a Mac!

Adam L

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2014, 01:28:31 pm »

Sigma released a new version of SPP:  http://www.sigma-global.com/en/download/cameras/sigma-photo-pro/   6.06

I believe a new version of the Quattro firmware is also available.
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JV

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2014, 07:48:23 pm »

I downloaded SPP 6.0.6 for Mac and found a sample Quattro file online.

The software does indeed seem to work and I was able to generate a TIFF file.

My folder had 5 images, 4 JPEGs and the Quattro file.  The first time for some reason it took about a minute (on a Mac with 16GB) before the 5 thumbs appeared.  Visits after that were much faster and responsive though.

Besides that, the user interface is completely unintuitive and indeed reminiscent of SilkyPix 3, the version that comes with the Fuji X cameras.

As soon as Iridient supports the files I probably would not mind giving the camera a try though.
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dmpbyrdwatcher

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2014, 07:49:09 pm »

I loved these two reviews!

Both truly gave me lots of useful information, just what a potential buyer really needs to know about a new camera.

And they were entertaining.  I FELT Kevin's frustration and laughed at Michael's funny sarcasm.

Seriously, I don't recall ever reading two more useful and less 'biased' reviews - no one could fake those emotional responses to the camera and software as written.
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David Mantripp

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2014, 01:49:23 pm »



As soon as Iridient supports the files I probably would not mind giving the camera a try though.

Apparently there are no plans for Quattro support in Iridient. Which means I personally will not be buying one. In any case I see no significant advance over the Merrills.
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David Mantripp

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Re: DP2 Quattro--Sigma: better SPP, Haya-ku please!
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2014, 11:34:29 am »

I agree with Michael and Kevin that what we expected was not met in our experiences (I used the Quattro for the 5-day (too-short-) loan period, a nice gesture by Sigma, but perhaps also one that shot themselves in the foot a bit, as many reactions towards the camera weren't all that positive).

There is nothing more frustrating than dashed expectations, especially due to the way this camera was touted and how it affected our expectations, perhaps beyond the levels of Sigma's own intentions? (actually, I don't think so!)

All companies use hype. Nothing new there. If they deliver, we are ecstatic (as in the case of e.g. the Pentax 645Z apparently; see MR's review here on lula), and quite let down if the opposite happens, which happened to a large extent with the Q.

This is exactly how I felt. I have the DP2M and DP3M; and for my landscape and city-scape purposes, under most circumstances, these are great little cameras. I have tried the SD1 as well, liked it kind of, but need live view, so did not buy.

So, my expectations of ever improved Foveon performance got somewhat smashed by the Quattro, despite its better handling and faster processing speed. The only thing so far I can say is that its jpeg performance is the best of any Sigma camera so far, and according to some reviewers, the best coming out of any digital camera, period. I cannot personally verify that accolade.

But I shoot RAW, and processing these RAWS is indeed the most frustrating experience ever. I liked the Quattro camera itself enough so consider a purchase, but hated (and still do) the new software version. It is simply TOO &#$^%$#@ SLOW.  So, no Quattro. Got a hardly used DP3M instead for half price of a new one.

If the files of the Q could be processed fast enough, I'm sure many users would forgive some of the camera's foibles. After all, it has IQ; there is no doubt about that. Whether it's better that the DP Merrills: many argue it is not enough better.

Apart from the slowness of the software, the current versions still do not bring out the full potential of the Foveon sensor; there has been talk about the so-called beer-garden phenomenon, and other issues with colors, lack of micro-detail, etc. They are apparently being slowly addressed, and we are promised a final SPP version in October. I'm a skeptical about a significant speed improvement, as they are focusing on bug fixes and tweaking of image processing (we have now at least 3 new versions since the camera first came out, and this may continue until the October great event?).

Let's say for moment that they fix all bugs, all processing issues, and the software produces absolutely fantastic out of this world, to-die-for, images, but it's still really molasses slow. Then what? Will they suddenly win the hearts of potential customers? We know the answer already to this silly question.

Sigma MUST absolutely produce a much faster SPP software, even if it means (and I hope they do), rebuilding the entire software from the ground up, even if it means using a different programming language. Even if it means delaying the selling of the DP1Q and DP3Q until that's done. Something very and deadly serious got to be done if Sigma is to hold its head above water as a viable camera producing company.

SPP IS and REMAINS the main problem. The SPP for the Quattros is significantly slower than for the Merrils and previous Foveon cameras. I have a quad-core, 32GB RAM PC, and a 250MB tiff file take a few seconds in PS to open up and adjustments take at most 10-15 seconds.

What's broken is not the Foveon technology itself but the software, the funnel through which the RAWs are processed. Sigma needs to invest very heavily and urgently in RAW software development.

So, I have one word to express to Sigma when it comes to better and faster software: Hya-ku-neh! (Japanese for: please hurry up !)

Personally I am considering the Sony A7R as my next DSLR, or, if I can raise the money, something like the Pentax 645Z. Would love to see some really good dng files from that machine.



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michael

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2014, 01:35:26 pm »

Kevin and I have a meeting scheduled with Sigma at Photokina. One of the things that I plan on asking them is whether they have a beta program for SPP.

My guess is that they do not, because if they did we likely wouldn't see the software working (soft of) on one machine and not another.

Beta programs such as those run by companies like Adobe and Phase One have dozens of people on a wide range of machines and OS versions constantly testing revisions and updates. Yet bugs still sneak through.

To not have a broad-based beta testing program for consumer software is inviting disaster, and that's what we're seeing with SPP.

When the emperor is naked, someone has to say so. We did.

Michael
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 03:44:59 pm by michael »
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NancyP

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2014, 02:45:13 pm »

Thank you, Michael and Kevin, for reviews and for your contacting Sigma face to face about SPP issues. Michael's review of the DP2M gave a lot of momentum to the DP Merrills, it is clear that you want to like the Foveon cameras including the Quattro. Sigma should take note that their friendly user base is frustrated with the software.
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OldRoy

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Re: DP2 Quattro: just plain offensive
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2014, 03:56:12 pm »

Any way you cut it a device this badly designed is positively offensive and an insult to consumers. I really don't care how wonderful the images are, technically - which I realise someone's bound to seize on for the purpose of denial. Of course some of these consumers probably deserve whatever they get, so vulnerable have we become to the wiles of corporations in a decadent market. I've been had too, numerous times, with the Surface Pro 2 being the latest (well, last December anyway) but it's a flawless masterpiece compared to everything I've read about these bizarrely badly executed lumps.

I say this fully understanding that they can produce superb image quality, but there isn't much that can't these days, is there? I also view them from the perspective of someone who once had a company in which I invented, designed and manufactured video signal processing equipment which was sold by a major Japanese multi-national company. I got some of that enterprise and its products wrong too but compared to Sigma I was working with almost no financial or manpower resources. Even so I usually managed to iron out the faults before subsequent versions went on sale.

As for software I had a role for about ten years in managing the implementation of a large custom software package used in genuinely mission-critical environments - in the newspaper industry where you kinda need to make sure that every issue of the paper gets published. The cr@p software that Sigma are peddling sounds like a bad joke and would have got the team I was part of fired en masse.

Buy this sh!t and you simply encourage them.
"Never give a sucker an even break"
W.C. Fields
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peterzpicts

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2014, 08:38:56 pm »

A good question to ask, since it looks like we will never see native X3F support on a mainline RAW editor like Aperture, Lightroom, Phase1 maybe they need to consider adding DNG to the firmware or 16bit TIFF options.  Yes this may limit total capability but since their current JPGs color is so good I think this might be a good enough solution for most folks.  I currently covert all my X3Fs in SPP to 16bit TIFF Pro Color and import to Aperture. Doubling my processing time compared to NEFs.
Paul
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jerome_m

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2014, 02:21:55 am »

Kevin and I have a meeting scheduled with Sigma at Photokina. One of the things that I plan on asking them is whether they have a beta program for SPP.

Good. May I suggest you also ask them about publishing the specs of their raw files format? That may motivate somebody to write an alternative converter.

Also: many users would be perfectly pleased with a simple software to convert batch of files to 16-bits tiff, so as to be able to import them into Lightroom without losing too much quality. That should be much easier to do than the full-featured SPP program.
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Quentin

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2014, 04:00:42 am »

No doubt SPP is a dogs breakfast, but on my pretty fast PC with 32gb ram, its not too bad. Lets say about as fast as Hasselblad Phocus at processing a single shot H5D file.  The biggest issue is when making pre-development adjustments, which are too slow.

I blow hot and cold with the Quattro.  I have posted a number of files here and elsewhere and it is capable of superb results, as you, Michael, have said. It can be a medium format camera in your pocket, or a car crash, depending on light levels and shooting conditions.
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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2014, 10:53:48 am »


It can be a medium format camera in your pocket, or a car crash, depending on light levels and shooting conditions.

Well said; this is kind of true of all Foveon-based cameras; I know, I own some of them.

I hope Photokina comes out with an affordable medium format RF-or-Mirrorless (with a fixed lens or with an interchangeable lens system) that allows me to print cropped images in 1:3 ratio panoramic format up to let's say 48-inches wide.

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powerslave12r

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2014, 11:55:55 am »

Kevin and I have a meeting scheduled with Sigma at Photokina. One of the things that I plan on asking them is whether they have a beta program for SPP.

My guess is that they do not, because if they did we likely wouldn't see the software working (soft of) on one machine and not another.

Beta programs such as those run by companies like Adobe and Phase One have dozens of people on a wide range of machines and OS versions constantly testing revisions and updates. Yet bugs still sneak through.

To not have a broad-based beta testing program for consumer software is inviting disaster, and that's what we're seeing with SPP.

When the emperor is naked, someone has to say so. We did.

Michael


Heartfelt thanks for pushing Sigma into making sane decisions. I hope you would mention opening up the SPP source code and X3F to developers worldwide. People *seem* to be lining up at the door to try to help Sigma, but Sigma, in what seems to be a rather arrogant attitude at this point, just doesn't want to acknowledge it.

Best wishes and thanks for furthering our best interests.
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Alan Smallbone

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2014, 01:10:21 pm »

For windows there is another conversion option and it works on the Quattro files, it is Helicon Filter.

http://www.heliconsoft.com/heliconsoft-products/helicon-filter/

Using the embedded conversion works on the files from my Quattro and DP3M. They have a 30 day trial, and full license is only $30. Worth a look. (this is also posted in another thread)

Alan
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soboyle

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2014, 07:39:57 pm »

Lets hope Sigma sees the light and goes DNG with future files. Or works closely with Adobe for compatibility. Working with Quattro files currently is almost as time consuming as scanning film.

NancyP

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2014, 03:36:24 pm »

So now it is Photokina time, let's hope we hear some news from Michael's and Kevin's meeting with the Sigma folks, even if the result of the meeting is a non-specific comment from Sigma rep: "yes, we heard you, post-processing is a weakness of our platform". The reps can't tell us everything, but they can register our concerns.
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michael

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2014, 05:14:46 pm »

All I can say is that we met for over an hour with senior people at Sigma and they are well aware of the issues.

It will be up to them to say more.

Michael
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powerslave12r

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Re: DP2 Quattro
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2014, 05:23:09 pm »

All I can say is that we met for over an hour with senior people at Sigma and they are well aware of the issues.

It will be up to them to say more.

Michael


Thanks. I hope they know what they're doing.
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