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Author Topic: When will Canons answer to D800e come?  (Read 11435 times)

FredBGG

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2013, 06:54:32 PM »

do you know the camera? Did you shoot it?
Internal codec recording of the GH3 is a joke compared to a hacked GH2. 75MBit/s for Intra is simply too low. You end up with I-Frames around 400K. It's okay if you shoot wide open with large out of focus areas (i.e. - most of the image does not require high resolution). But shooting high definition scenes stopped down things look completey different.
Don't get me wrong... for video the GH3 is still much better than any Canon or Nikon I know of ... but a hacked GH2 will smoke the GH3 in terms of "internal codec recording" (your term)... even in 25p (and on the GH2 25p derives from 50i... so it's wrapped... while the GH3 shoots native 25p).

Hey... read my post again.....
First line is about the GH3 the rest is the GH2

Also to be precise the stock GH3 goes up to 72Mbps not 75MBit/s
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 07:37:47 PM by FredBGG »
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fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2013, 07:39:20 PM »

75MBit/s for Intra is simply too low. Don't get me wrong... for video the GH3 is still much better than any Canon or Nikon I know of ... but a hacked GH2 will smoke the GH3 in terms of "internal codec recording" (your term)... even in 25p (and on the GH2 25p derives from 50i... so it's wrapped... while the GH3 shoots native 25p).

Yep, that's something I pointed several time: 75 or 72 Mb/s is not ideal for INTRA. It would be very fine for long GOP but for INTRA, not so great.

And it's true that the latest GH2 hacks, the ones with GOP1 at 150 to up are leaving the GH3 "behind". Hey, they can be considered INTRA and doubled or tripled the recorded datas.
But...

The footage I saw after a day on set with the GH3 really pleased me a lot. Frankly very very good. And also, the GH3 AF is really amazing. I can understand why Coot saw the potential to ad such a cam on his set.

And you know, soon or later, hackers will boost it as they did for the GH2, so the 75 will be a past reality soon. Also, "slowmo" at 50 mb/s is not a bad feature at all.

And no Fred, It will not be hackable to 4:2:2. Unfortunatly. The only thing the hackers will do is boosting the recorded datas and re-arranging the mapping etc...but no 4:2:2. That's the big missing feature of this cam, not even with external recorder. Pana protects their pro-gear.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 07:51:57 PM by fredjeang2 »
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FredBGG

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2013, 07:51:29 PM »

Nikon is working on focus racking for future cameras.
Set presets and speed, then trigger when you want it to change focus.

http://www.photographybay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Nikon-Auto-Focus-Pull.pdf]]http://www.photographybay.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Nikon-Auto-Focus-Pull.pdf

I would imagine that other brands are working on this too.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 07:53:31 PM by FredBGG »
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tho_mas

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2013, 07:54:08 PM »

Yep, that's something I pointed several time: 75 Mb/s is not ideal for INTRA. It would be very fine for long GOP but for INTRA, not so great.
I wonder why Panasonic choose this direction. 75MBit (72 for nitpickers) for Intra is mathematical too low. Pansonic knows this.

Quote
The footage I saw after a day on set with the GH3 really pleased me a lot.
IPB mode (as opposed to ALL-I) looks really good. Really! I agree...

Quote
And also, the GH3 AF is really amazing. I can understand why Coot saw the potential to ad such a cam on his set.
Absolutely. Panasonic was smart enough to make the AF smooth, not fast ... this is exactly what you want when shooting video. Continous AF doesn't work all the time (i.e. under all circumstances) ... but generally the way Panasonic desinged it is really, really good. Maybe it gets even better in future firmware updates... who knows.

Quote
And you know, soon or later, hackers will boost it as they did for the GH2.
Sure :-) I am looking forward to the first hack! Beside the AF capabilities (especially in cunjunction with the new AF/I.S. lenses) the GH3 has better dynamic range and better high ISO than the GH2. ISO1600 on the GH3 is really usable... even without excessive Noise Reduction (except you can maybe apply some soft NR to the deepest blacks... it depends).

Still ... unless I need certain AF capabilities I do prefer my hacked GH2 for the time being...

BTW... it's a pleasure to see you here on board again!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 07:59:03 PM by tho_mas »
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fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2013, 07:55:45 PM »

Nice to see you too Tho_mas.

Are you still runnin Media Composer ?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:03:49 PM by fredjeang2 »
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tho_mas

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2013, 08:07:43 PM »

Are you still runnin Media Composer ?
sure! what else? :-)
Have been using it for 15 years ... I really don't want to go FCP or Premie or Eidus as long as I do personal work. When I am working with a cutter I don't care whatever she/he is using... as long as it's fast and as long as it doesn't make me nervous ...

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fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2013, 08:12:49 PM »

sure! what else? :-)
Have been using it for 15 years ... I really don't want to go FCP or Premie or Eidus as long as I do personal work. When I am working with a cutter I don't care whatever she/he is using... as long as it's fast and as long as it doesn't make me nervous ...


I'm totally sold to Avid now. Did intensive classes on the broadcast national teevee and this bloody Avid rocks like anything else, once the steeper learning curve is passed.
I can't picture myself using another NLE now that I'm more advanced on it.
No surprise why it's the prefer NLE in most big prods. I've been playing a little with Premiere but no...not my cup of tea.

I've been trying to bring the Cooter to the MC dark force for awhile but he is obstinate like a texan. He will use his FCP7 until the software explode all the lamps and melt into peices.

Maybe this 4 hours video could convince. Really serious stuff:
Good for watching in a boring flight between LA and Chandernagor.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:51:01 PM by fredjeang2 »
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tho_mas

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2013, 08:21:18 PM »

I'm totally sold to Avid now. Did intensive classes on the broadcast national teevee and this bloody Avid rocks like anything else, once the steeper learning curve is passed.
I can't picture myself using another NLE now that I'm more advanced on it.
it's the same to me... obviously :-)
Well... and I'm also somehow glad you appreciate the workflow options Avid offers....

Quote
No surprise why it's the prefer NLE in most big prods.
here in Germany it's pretty much like this: short clips (program promotion/trailer, advertising) it's FCP (7 - FCPx nowhere in the professional business) and Avid (I would say half/half). Story telling: Avid (98% I guess).

Quote
I've been playing a little with Premiere but no...
certainly NO! Adobe comes from still imagery. Premire is Photoshop based. They really have no idea about story telling or how to create a workflow for storytellers. They have some really, really smart (technical) features... but the workflow is still really painful ... IMO.

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fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2013, 08:23:43 PM »


Well... and I'm also somehow glad you appreciate the workflow options Avid offers....
here in Germany it's pretty much like this: short clips (program promotion/trailer, advertising) it's FCP (7 - FCPx nowhere in the professional business) and Avid (I would say half/half). Story telling: Avid (98% I guess).
certainly NO! Adobe comes from still imagery. Premire is Photoshop based. They really have no idea about story telling or how to create a workflow for storytellers. They have some really, really smart (technical) features... but the workflow is still really painful ... IMO.
Same here. You nailed it.

tho_mas

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2013, 08:31:41 PM »

Quote
I've been trying to bring the Cooter to the MC dark force for awhile but with no success at all so far. He will use his FCP7 until the software explode all the lamps and melt into peices.
didn't see this since you've edited your post...

Well... if FCP7 works fine for someone theres no real reason to change anything (until FCP7 is not supported anymore... but FCPx is certainly not a professional upgrade).
Anytime I work with a cutter on FCP7 I have to laugh because anytime I want to see someting longer than 5 seconds they tell me they have to render the sequence.
While this is funny when you have time (and good coffee) it's an absolut desaster when you don't have any time at all. It simply absurbs too much attention and interrupts the workflow. And of course it doesn't work at all if you have to deliver a piece within an hour or two ...


« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:34:30 PM by tho_mas »
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fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2013, 08:40:42 PM »

Yeah, I mean, FCP7 still works, and until it's been supported, it will do the job. I totally understand why switching is a pain in the ass when everybody in the studio is used to one system.
A switch is always a time consuming black hole.

But I totaly join you on the fact that the implementation-phylosophy of Avid really help to tell the story. And also that with big volume, when it's the case for feature, it's the most stable, secure and
for collaborative high-end workflows, DIT know its core and solutions are working with great reliability.

I was very interested on DS, but it seems that they won't re-work it any longuer but center on MC.

Ouupsss: wasn't this a MF forum? They will fire us from here.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:46:33 PM by fredjeang2 »
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tho_mas

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2013, 08:54:05 PM »

Yeah, I mean, FCP7 still works, and until it's been supported, it will do the job. I totally understand why switching is a pain in the ass when everybody in the studio is used to one system.
A switch is always a time consuming black hole.
yes! Because people working with certain tools are only good, creative and fast when they don't have to think about how they are doing things. Think about the way you built a project, the way you organize your footage... and finally the way you use your fucking keyboard shotcuts.
This is actually the strength of Avid... IMO: you can always bulid your own worflow (project-dependant)... it doesn't force you to do things this or that way. It's extremely complex... but it's also extremely open to explore and to built your very personal wokflow (even your own wokspace - which today I would regard one of the most important features of any software. This is also btw one of the reasons I like Capture One so much... you can customize it in many ways, edit keyboards shortscurts etc. ... only the shitty dark interface is a given).

Quote
But I totaly join you on the fact that the implementation-phylosophy of Avid really help to tell the story. And also that with big volume, when it's the case for feature, it's the most stable, secure and
for collaborative high-end workflows, DIT know its core and solutions are working.
this mirrors my experience after many years in the TV business...

Quote
Ouupsss: wasn't this a MF forum?
don't worry. This forum has become the coffe corner for smart-asses ... :-)



« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:57:07 PM by tho_mas »
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bcooter

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2013, 03:00:07 AM »



The footage I saw after a day on set with the GH3 really pleased me a lot. Frankly very very good. And also, the GH3 AF is really amazing........... snip...but no 4:2:2. That's the big missing feature of this cam, not even with external recorder. Pana protects their pro-gear.

I wish they wouldn't protect their pro gear because if it shot a pro rezz 422 at 150mbs that little pany would rock the world.

The focus is smooth and the only thing I don't like about the camera is the look and feel.  Compared to the Olympus (which is jewel like) it's kind of a lump, though a very effective lump.

I shot some video with the Oly omd and it's in camera stabilization is almost steadicam smooth . . . really . . . and the video is not bad.  Not as good as the Pany but as good as the Sony fs100.

Anyway to try to take this back to medium format land, I believe they really need to look at these 4/3's cameras for usability.  There are a lot of amazing features that are in use today, not in the future.

IMO

BC

P.S.  Yea I'll use fcp 7 for a while longer but eventually have to move to Avid.  Don't like premier, though fcp 7 isn't that slow if you transcode your footage to prorezz 4:2:2, and for your early cutting set the sequence to rgb 8bit.  Rendering time is virtually zero unless you start adding filters.   Then once the cut is locked, move over to 10 bit precision yuv go to lunch and render.

Also to fix the gamma issue of final cut pro to a quicktime conversion, go to the sequence settings find the advance tab and a box of qt settings opens.  ALWAYS set gamma correction to NONE.



« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 03:30:00 AM by bcooter »
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Rob C

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2013, 04:05:48 AM »

Could be, though actually it's what happens when a third assistant shoots a Nikon file (honestly) 3 stops over and I pulled the curves down too quickly.

I fixed it for you Rob.

IMO

BC



Thank you, Cooter, you've reconfirmed my sense of expectations!

All I'd like now is to see someone make a short movie using a Cat lens.

;-)

Rob C

fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2013, 05:58:21 AM »

I wish they wouldn't protect their pro gear because if it shot a pro rezz 422 at 150mbs that little pany would rock the world.

The focus is smooth and the only thing I don't like about the camera is the look and feel.  Compared to the Olympus (which is jewel like) it's kind of a lump, though a very effective lump.

I shot some video with the Oly omd and it's in camera stabilization is almost steadicam smooth . . . really . . . and the video is not bad.  Not as good as the Pany but as good as the Sony fs100.

Anyway to try to take this back to medium format land, I believe they really need to look at these 4/3's cameras for usability.  There are a lot of amazing features that are in use today, not in the future.

IMO

BC

P.S.  Yea I'll use fcp 7 for a while longer but eventually have to move to Avid.  Don't like premier, though fcp 7 isn't that slow if you transcode your footage to prorezz 4:2:2, and for your early cutting set the sequence to rgb 8bit.  Rendering time is virtually zero unless you start adding filters.   Then once the cut is locked, move over to 10 bit precision yuv go to lunch and render.

Also to fix the gamma issue of final cut pro to a quicktime conversion, go to the sequence settings find the advance tab and a box of qt settings opens.  ALWAYS set gamma correction to NONE.



I have great respect for fcp. I think that thanks to it,
Apple obliged Avid to be less arrogant and we all benefit.
I used to really like Color. In fact, fcp was like a super app
And for the fraction of the costs of other systems.
This app has done so much for editors and even if it's
Now outdated, many are still cuttin with it.

The good news is that they've Been so many people
Switching to Avid since the fcpx, that there are a lot of
Tutos to help fcp users to make the switch way easier.
The 4 hours link I posted above for ex is from a former
Fcp editor, so he makes references on what is the
Workflow in fcp and what to do in the Avid. So fcp users
Have a reference to work from and can picture easily
The differences.

The other interesting thing about the Avid, are the level
Of the people involved in the forums. In the cow for ex,
There are really top knowledgable editors and DITs. So
The level of tech answers is really high. When you need
A specific info, it's generaly there and Personaly I find it
Very "safe". It's not like those pp forums plagued by
Wanabees and you have to spend time to figure-out
who knows and who knows less. It's very very rare
In the avid forums. Curiously, many Avid editors know
Very well fcp and can help fcp users easily. I see it all
The time. Lots of Avid editors were cutting previously in
FCP or started with Avid long time ago, switched to FCP,
then back again to Avid, so really, when you are in an
Avid forum comming from FCP, you have lots of people
in the same situation and they are as knowledgable in
FCP techniques.

Yeah, Pana protects too much their pro line. They have
Build A potential jewell with the gh2, gh3. But they aren't
Fully commited to bring them to the real pro specs.
I think they don't want it to be out of control and people
Stop to buy their expensive camcorders. hey, they have
A pro division and know those gh have huge potential
To threaten seriously their pro line. It's political.
But if we probably will never get prores like the Alexa,
They'll implement RAW video for sure, wich will solve
The current limitations in a short term, but adding the
Dev step.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:18:57 AM by fredjeang2 »
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fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2013, 10:05:50 AM »

Didn't Magic lantern change that yesterday?

Sorry, I didn't realised that you were talking about the new Magic Lantern Raw hack just released.

Yes, the Canon's hackers have done a huge step, Still a work in progress but really promissing. And yes, now the Canon DSLR can
start to be a very serious motion tool. Sony and Pana will have to move their bottoms. It's a benefit for all. This will shake the market and makes it
more exciting and dynamic.

Canon might not be very happy for its C300...

MrSmith

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2013, 03:27:01 PM »

HBlad might do a deal on that lovely new Lunar camera? There must be some movement on the price if you buy an HD60? ::)
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FredBGG

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2013, 09:20:13 PM »

HBlad might do a deal on that lovely new Lunar camera? There must be some movement on the price if you buy an HD60? ::)

Maybe they can refund $ 4,000 when the crocodile skin grip falls off.....
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FredBGG

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2013, 05:07:03 AM »


certainly NO! Adobe comes from still imagery. Premire is Photoshop based. They really have no idea about story telling or how to create a workflow for storytellers. They have some really, really smart (technical) features... but the workflow is still really painful ... IMO.


I work on projects with Avid as well as Premiere Pro and have dabbled with FCP(very little).

While Avid is definitely the industry standard I don't thing Adobe and the Premeire Pro folks have NO IDEA about story telling.

Out of curiosity what is it that you find that is missing that makes Premiere Pro hopeless for story telling?

Personally I find no problem story telling in any of the major editing programs.

maybe it's just me, but from my experience story telling is in the script and edititng is the fine tuning of the cut of the story.

In another are I find that Premiere Pro has far superior strengths such as it's integration with After Effects and photoshop for effects heavy, design heavy and visual heavy work.

In particular I think it's a great tool for the photographer making motion imagery.

Final conforming with After Effects is so much easier with Premeire.

Pemiere 7 is close to release and includes native prores and avid codecs.

Here are a few frames form some motion work I've done on Premiere Pro and After effects combined.




Corporate documentary 55 minutes









Cosmetics ad and corporate doc.











Martin Lawrence Runteldat... Title sequence and 15 minute life story featurette part of the full lenght stand up comedy feature.
This required editing various formats all on one timeline from 20/30 hours of footage from VHS to digital and film digital intermediates.
I also did the visual effects for the feature. All atmospheric effects and many lighting effects as no smoke machines could be used at constitution hall
where the finale of the tour was shot. Final sketch required turning off the lights and simulating a follow spot for the entire sketch.
Effects done in 3D, 2D and all effects dailies made in premiere. Multi camera feature section was edited in Avid.

Anyway motion image is a great extension of a still photographers work and tools like Photoshop, Premeire Pro and After effects are great, especially now that Premiere Pro
has ever more Avid integration.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:11:01 AM by FredBGG »
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fredjeang2

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Re: When will Canons answer to D800e come?
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2013, 06:08:05 AM »

PP, Imo, is far from being a wreak. It's powerfull
And highly capable, and as you point, highly integrated
In Adobe suite.
Also, the addition of Speedgrade is really good and will
Bring the CC to another level with the ease of dynamic link.
Considering the all suite, Adobe has a more capable
Super app than smoke.

Also, as you pointed, it's a perfect app for photographers
Background because they feel more "at home", while
Autodesk, or Avid are less friendly to make the switch
And require more learning curve.

But, there are several things to take into consideration.
-  Adobe is not a standart within this industry. It might
Well become in the future but not yet. Despite being
Outdated, there are still a lot more houses cuttin in fcp7,
And when it comes to big prods, high-end, Avid still
Rules. Personaly, I do not know here any house that uses
PP. Only indies, a couple of freelance editors but that's it.
It does not mean that the software is crap, it is not. .
It's just that it suits some workflows and not others.

Then the Avid. The big strengh of MC, imo, is the stability
When it comes to big volumes, file management is simply
In another league, it's better designed for collaborative
Workflows. PP implies that the more logical workflow
Would be using it within the suite, in combination with
AE for ex. Avid is designed to be used with colorists who
Grade in Resolve, Nukoda,; effects houses on Nuke etc...
It is also featured for broadcast teevees requirements.
It's only when one requieres lots of roundtrippings and
Have to deal with broadcasters and feature prod houses,
Or if One needs to outsource, that you can appreciate
The differences. you just send bins. Try to handle edls, aafs, as4,
Etc when things go wrong etc...
Then it's mxf based. Etc...it would take pages to develop all that.
In other words, part-time editors, photographers coming
To motion, etc...won't see any difference. In fact,
They will see that Avid is an overcomplicated hassle. But for the people
Who work daily within this industry, most would choose
An Avid system before Adobe.

Avid can be A real pain in the ass because you have
To feed it with what it wants, and it's "the avid's way".
AMA is a love-hate relashionship. But when one does
The things the way the program wants you to do, you got
The best obedient dog. And totaly customizable according
To each editor's style. So it's faster to cut with.
Metadatas management is top, and metadatas are
The core of motion post-prod. Back-up implementation,
Etc...

But Adobe certainly has great capabilities, depends for
Each One needs.
AE is really the big cherry on the cake of Adobe. This
In fact is the core app. PP only optional. As you pointed,
We can cut in Avid, and compo in AE.
Personaly, although I recognize AE as the jewell, I hate
Its interface and layer based. But it's just me.
I knew the Martin Lawrence video (only a part). Well, for text effects,
as there are a lot, AE is way better than a Nuke compo.
In fact, there are complementary. It's the right
software for the right task as we say. Nothing is better
nor worse, it's only a matter of what helps in this or that
area, and what helps less.

For someone who runs his own prod suite, wants
To control the compositing at home, wants to do the
Audio at home, being fully featured at cool cost,
do a lot of text-titleling composites,
Adobe is the way to go Imo. Full time editors, broadcast,
Feature film prods, fragmentated workflows, Avid. But it's not a golden rule,
And everyone can tell a good story even with a windows
Movie maker.

ps: I'll do when I have time, 3 video tutos on the retouching
And fx, only within Avid on purpose. 3 levels of complexity, from
Basic to advanced. I hope this time my narrative english
Will be more fluid and less monkey-talking. The goal
Is not sending anything to Nuke that can be done
Within the editor.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 07:30:40 AM by fredjeang2 »
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