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Author Topic: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.  (Read 17584 times)

FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2012, 12:00:18 am »

Try the same setup on a flat subject stopped down and tell us how the corners look like. Then try it with an 80MP back...

The Fuji lenses do very well stopped down, but I do not specialize in photographing flat subjects. That is why I favor cameras with more tilt and shift options.

You can have all the hyper sharpness, but IMHO being able to shift the pane of focus on your focal length of choice
is more important. You can acheive more sharpness when you have more flexibility keeping more of you subject in focus.

I find this is particularly important with medium format. One of the big pluses of MF is the shallow depth of field.
I often photograph two models in a shot and still want shallow depth of field, but I also want the freedom to pose them at different distances
from the camera.

Here is an example.

Without tilt:



With tilt:


I both shots I achieve shallow depth of field keeping the background almost similarly blurred.
However I the second shot both models eyes are sharp.

(Sorry about the quality.. these are scanned from a contact sheet.)

« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 12:06:15 am by FredBGG »
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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2012, 12:13:27 am »

Here is a shot taken with the Fuji gx680 that shows off the quality of the lenses...



and a crop:


and a second crop
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 02:09:29 pm by FredBGG »
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yaya

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2012, 01:59:32 am »

The last image shows that the lens is sharp in the centre with film.
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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2012, 02:22:23 pm »

The last image shows that the lens is sharp in the centre with film.

Oops the first crop's link was not typed correct.
I think I can safely say that the first crop shows that it is very sharp
even away from the center of the frame. It's also important
to keep in mind that the image circle is very much larger
than any MFD sensor so you will be comfortably in the sweet spot.

Hasselblad chose Fuji as the lens maker for the H System because of the
quality of Fujinon Lenses. The Fuji GX680 lenses were very advanced
for when they came out. Also several New lenses were launched
with the GX680 III and the Fuji 22MP back for the 680. Also most 680
lenses used the Fuji Electron Beam Coating lens coating method
that is still used by Hasselblad/Fujinon lenses.
This is also thesame coating used on Fuji's very hi end motion picture lenses
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yaya

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2012, 03:51:56 pm »

You don't seem to get the point so let's just move on or get back to the topic....
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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2012, 04:56:59 pm »

You don't seem to get the point so let's just move on or get back to the topic....

No I get the point very well. You claim that the Fuji gx680 lenses are not sharp enough for digital.
This crop is what would be the edge of the frame with a 53.7 x 40.4 sensor.



I think that it is quite clear that the lenses are sharp enough.

And this discussion is on topic.

The discussion started regarding problems with the Phase One 120 tilt shift lens
and focusing problems.

My point is that a very viable and inexpensive option for someone looking to do tilt shift
with a wonderful Phase or leaf back can do so with a Fuji gx680.

Even if it's a temporary option till the 120 TS focusing issue is fully fixed.

It's also a good second option if users need focal lengths with tilt shift that are other than 120mm
as well as more flexible tilt shifting.

Good thing about going with a GX680 as a temporary option is that you buy at used prices and sell it again for about the same amount.

For less than half the price of a 120 TS Phase One you could get 4 lenses a body and an adapter kit.

I'll do a test with an 60 or 60MP when I get a chance and post the results.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 05:07:28 pm by FredBGG »
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bcooter

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2012, 05:12:20 pm »

Fantastic...another thread that lasted less than two posts before turning into a GX680 promo...(great camera BTW, if not the most suitable for digital capture...)




I find it fascinating that for the last billion years of digital capture there has been the same discussion from all the digital makers that their competitors lenses aren't as sharp are sharper than their own, or if that doesn't work, then a 80 mpx back will show the defects a 22mp back won't, or a 18mp dslr will never hold up to a digital back, or   . . . well you get the idea.

But getting back to topic . . . all the guy wants is a new lens he can focus and he doesn't have to put gaffer tape on it to make it work.   That's a pretty simple request and once again to stay back on topic, nobody really gives him a satisfactory answer.

I find all of this rather fascinating as some of the most beautiful photography I've ever seen really isn't that edge to edge sharp.  In fact most beautiful photographs I've seen in any genre are usually kind of soft and do not look like reality . . . they are an interpretation of life.

Not that there is not bias on all fronts and all that bias isn't just from factory reps pushing their brand , it comes from users, chart readers, pixel pushers that are just positive the perfectly sharp camera hasn't really been invented yet, though in my experience nothing adds sharpness like getting the image in focus.

Maybe a flat field edge to edge sharp lens is important to some product guys (and I say some) or if you work in the basement of the Nation Portrait Gallery copying art work, but in the world of making a pretty picture, sharpness can be extremely over rated.

Speaking of NPG this is from their website but by the standards of today's digital explorers, they would tear it apart saying "I think their is 5% noise in the shadows and it's really not a true 80mpx file".

Anyway, I like the guy here that uses a fuji 680 cause it's different, he's experimenting and let's face it, in the artistic photography world you can do a lot more with a bendable camera than you can a Mamiya 645 and no offense to mamiya 645 owners, but I fail to understand how anyone really falls in love with the 645 Mamiya and what a strange state photography is in where only 2 1/2 new medium format cameras are even still produced.  The Mamiya with a fixed prism, the H series blad and the Rollei/HY6 that nobody seems to want to make a real push for.

Maybe it's just me but when I bought my contax(s) I did so because I heard they had stopped production.  For me that was perfect, because I could mount a billion different lenses on them, they cost less than a ticket to a concert and in all the years I've used them the only sharpness issues I've seen (actually I find them too sharp) is when focus is missed.

Still I've shot pretty pictures with them, never worried about warranties because their cheap to buy and they've worked for a long time.

I believe if there were more inventive cameras and were as well built like the fuji 680 that really fitted medium format sensors, (or any sensor for that matter) you'd see much more interest than than the warmed over film cameras that are being sold as the digital solution.

IMO

BC



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gazwas

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2012, 06:24:32 pm »


Speaking of NPG this is from their website


What a beautiful portrait and what an amazing face!

The quality of that portrait has more to do with lighting than any camera/lens IMO but that is for another discussion another day.....   ;)
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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2012, 06:30:49 pm »

It is very true that from an artistic point of view the sharpest lens is not always the right lens to use.

However there is a myth going around about "digital lenses" being far superior and that your state of the art
lenses from just a few years ago.

Here is a very interesting article by Hasselbld about the evolution of lenses and it is without doubt that Hasselblad H lenses
are optically state of the art for MF.

Quote
C-type and HC lenses are separated by a turn of the millennium, changes
in the way lenses are designed, and shifting requirements to comply with
modern camera designs. Still, a great 20th century lens design makes for a
fine lens even today, so what are the differences between C-type and HC
lenses, and how do comparable lenses fare head-to-head?

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf

It's important to note that the Fuji gx680 lenses were made and designed by the same Fuji plant as the H lenses, with Hasselblad adding their own lens designer for the early stages of the process.

If anyone has any doubts on the lens quality of the Hasselblad H lenses just take a look at the 100% magnifications in this article about the Hasselblad 200MP multishot back.

http://www.hasselblad.com/promotions/h4d-200ms-milo-profi-fotografie.aspx
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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2012, 06:33:55 pm »


Maybe it's just me but when I bought my contax(s) I did so because I heard they had stopped production.  For me that was perfect, because I could mount a billion different lenses on them, they cost less than a ticket to a concert and in all the years I've used them the only sharpness issues I've seen (actually I find them too sharp) is when focus is missed.

If you have the Contax 645 you should check out the 120mm macro... beautiful look.
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Frank Doorhof

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2012, 02:53:08 am »

Photographers are story tellers, we need tools that tell help us tell that story.
If a lens is measurable sharper, or if there is 5 or 10% in the shadows is all irrelevant.

For some people however and we have forums filled with them the story telling part is not important, they just love camera (gear porn) and will tear apart a system when you can't pull it four stops without noise.....

I've been seeing this trend getting worse and worse.
Now a days we have some amazing gear, the best ever..... But I wonder why we so little really great photography, if you take into account how many photographers there are, the balance is 100% gone.

For me, I love my credo60 on the DF and RZ, I love my 5DMKIII and Fuji's. But also recently started shooting film and Polaroids again, just because I love the look. Some people say "why, the quality is so much worse" until they see the images and see things I can't do with the clean digital files but can with the Polaroids. Film I just love for the unique look.

So instead of focusing on gear, focus on the image.

Typing contacts should indeed not be necessary for a lens, however even if the focus indicator works with a T&S lens I find it of little use, my focus point is actually never in the middle of the frame so I will use focus conformation in capture one to make sure I nailed the focus.
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design_freak

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2012, 03:44:14 am »

Photographers are story tellers, we need tools that tell help us tell that story.
If a lens is measurable sharper, or if there is 5 or 10% in the shadows is all irrelevant.

For some people however and we have forums filled with them the story telling part is not important, they just love camera (gear porn) and will tear apart a system when you can't pull it four stops without noise.....

I've been seeing this trend getting worse and worse.
Now a days we have some amazing gear, the best ever..... But I wonder why we so little really great photography, if you take into account how many photographers there are, the balance is 100% gone.

For me, I love my credo60 on the DF and RZ, I love my 5DMKIII and Fuji's. But also recently started shooting film and Polaroids again, just because I love the look. Some people say "why, the quality is so much worse" until they see the images and see things I can't do with the clean digital files but can with the Polaroids. Film I just love for the unique look.

So instead of focusing on gear, focus on the image.

Typing contacts should indeed not be necessary for a lens, however even if the focus indicator works with a T&S lens I find it of little use, my focus point is actually never in the middle of the frame so I will use focus conformation in capture one to make sure I nailed the focus.

+100000000
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Best regards,
DF

Tony Jay

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2012, 05:06:28 am »

I've been seeing this trend getting worse and worse....
Now a days we have some amazing gear, the best ever..... But I wonder why we so little really great photography, if you take into account how many photographers there are, the balance is 100% gone....

So instead of focusing on gear, focus on the image.

Well said Frank.
It isn't that the gear is not important but it is just a means to an end.
I do have some pretty nifty stuff myself but I am only interested in the end result.

Regards

Tony Jay
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yaya

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2012, 05:59:12 am »

What a beautiful portrait and what an amazing face!

The quality of that portrait has more to do with lighting than any camera/lens IMO but that is for another discussion another day.....   ;)

If you were the photographer who took this picture and you knew that it was going to be digitised for heritage archiving purposes, how important would it  be for you that the digital file provides a true representation of your work?

Do you know how many glass plates from the 19th century exist in archives around the world, waiting to be digitised? The image quality of many of those plates is absolutely phenomenal and there are many institutions, organisations and governments that spend huge amounts of money on equipment that ensures that all this amazing work is being digitised to the highest possible standard so that future generations can enjoy it.

If you for example digitise documents: birth, marriage and death certificates, flight-squadron log books, municipal/ urban planning docs etc. which usually need to be OCR'ed then edge to edge sharpness is critical for a trouble free workflow. There's a whole bunch of other applications where resolution and sharpness across the frame are crucial for making the image useful rather than useless...how about digitisation of old ceramic tiles or wooden floor boards and printing them on fake laminates? Do you know how much money that industry turns every year???

If you're a high-flying car or fashion photographer it is easy to talk down about that guy who works in a basement down at the NPG. There is no glory there and he doesn't hang out with beautiful models, win APA awards or drive exotic cars, but the work done by that guy, in the great scheme or things, is not less demanding and in many ways far more important for our world than the next hair conditioner campaign...

Just my opinion...

Yair

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:22:41 am by yaya »
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uaiomex

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2012, 12:48:04 pm »

For some possible reasons that I just can start to imagine, all the digital captures out of RZ's that I've seen (online only) are beautiful as hell. They posses the "undigital" look of the film without leaving behind the clarity of digital.
These pictures shown here whit the Fuji 680 raise the bar for the most film-like digital capture. In my opinion, this is more beautiful. Wish I could see a big print in person!
Eduardo


Here is a shot taken with the Fuji gx680 that shows off the quality of the lenses...



and a crop:


and a second crop

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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2012, 10:46:44 pm »

The shot was shot with one light. Elinchrom SL35 with the Fuji gx680 and 250mm5.6 Lens at f8 or maybe f11.
It was shot on Velvia 50 with a very mild bleach pass.

It's not digital.

Keep in mind that it was shot on a very large rock solid studio column stand (150 kg at least)
and with strob, so quite ideal setup for sharpness.

It funny how there is so much discussion about ultimate sharpness of lenses, but if you don't stick
the camera on a really really solid stand you won't get the best results.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:50:13 pm by FredBGG »
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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2012, 11:07:56 pm »

If you were the photographer who took this picture and you knew that it was going to be digitised for heritage archiving purposes, how important would it  be for you that the digital file provides a true representation of your work?

Do you know how many glass plates from the 19th century exist in archives around the world, waiting to be digitised? The image quality of many of those plates is absolutely phenomenal and there are many institutions, organisations and governments that spend huge amounts of money on equipment that ensures that all this amazing work is being digitised to the highest possible standard so that future generations can enjoy it.

If you for example digitise documents: birth, marriage and death certificates, flight-squadron log books, municipal/ urban planning docs etc. which usually need to be OCR'ed then edge to edge sharpness is critical for a trouble free workflow. There's a whole bunch of other applications where resolution and sharpness across the frame are crucial for making the image useful rather than useless...how about digitisation of old ceramic tiles or wooden floor boards and printing them on fake laminates? Do you know how much money that industry turns every year???

If you're a high-flying car or fashion photographer it is easy to talk down about that guy who works in a basement down at the NPG. There is no glory there and he doesn't hang out with beautiful models, win APA awards or drive exotic cars, but the work done by that guy, in the great scheme or things, is not less demanding and in many ways far more important for our world than the next hair conditioner campaign...

Just my opinion...

Yair



High end flat bed scanners will do a better and more consistent job from corner to corner and produce gigabyte files.
Cutaway bezel flatbeds will get sharp images of pages in old logs and logs with a gutter.
I modified and Epson v750 with a friend to digitize his antique books. Best solution for the pages.
Covers came out better with a camera and lighting setup to capture better 3 dimensional texture.

Also I don't think anyone here is down talking any lab technicians or repo technicians weather they are in a basement or not.
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yaya

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2012, 03:41:33 am »

High end flat bed scanners will do a better and more consistent job from corner to corner and produce gigabyte files.
Cutaway bezel flatbeds will get sharp images of pages in old logs and logs with a gutter.
I modified and Epson v750 with a friend to digitize his antique books. Best solution for the pages.
Covers came out better with a camera and lighting setup to capture better 3 dimensional texture.

Fred, you seem to have very good googling skills, so I suggest that you take some time and do some reading about art and document digitisation...

There is no such thing as "high end flatbed scanner" anymore...Kodak discontinued the Creo iQ line more than 2 years ago and the older Eversmart Supreme doesn't even run on non PPC Macs! Fuji, Screen and Heidelberg have all left this business a long time ago...

Your friend might be getting good results from his V750 but this is hardly a viable, high volume commercial production solution and while you can stitch 2 A3 scans it is a laborious and a slow process so if your original is larger than A3, your options are limited to either a camera which is fast and consistent or an e.g. Zeutschel type scanner which is very, very expensive and slow

Some books are so delicate and expensive that you cannot just flip them upside down on a scanner, there are companies who invest millions in developing robots and automatic/ semi-automatic book cradles and multi-camera devices and so on..

I can send you some links if you want, but perhaps we should start a new thread for this...

Yair
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bcooter

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2012, 05:25:13 am »

If you were the photographer who took this picture and you knew that it was going to be digitised for heritage archiving purposes, how important would it  be for you that the digital file provides a true representation of your work?

Do you know how many glass plates from the 19th century exist in archives around the world, waiting to be digitised? The image quality of many of those plates is absolutely phenomenal and there are many institutions, organisations and governments that spend huge amounts of money on equipment that ensures that all this amazing work is being digitised to the highest possible standard so that future generations can enjoy it.

If you for example digitise documents: birth, marriage and death certificates, flight-squadron log books, municipal/ urban planning docs etc. which usually need to be OCR'ed then edge to edge sharpness is critical for a trouble free workflow. There's a whole bunch of other applications where resolution and sharpness across the frame are crucial for making the image useful rather than useless...how about digitisation of old ceramic tiles or wooden floor boards and printing them on fake laminates? Do you know how much money that industry turns every year???

If you're a high-flying car or fashion photographer it is easy to talk down about that guy who works in a basement down at the NPG. There is no glory there and he doesn't hang out with beautiful models, win APA awards or drive exotic cars, but the work done by that guy, in the great scheme or things, is not less demanding and in many ways far more important for our world than the next hair conditioner campaign...

Just my opinion...

Yair




Hmm,

Somebody didn't have their Granola before they went for a bike ride this morning.

Yair, your a smart guy and no way was anything said negative about some cat shooting copy art in a basement.  

Since I started my career with below zero funds, at the start I shot a lot of stuff for money and some of it was fine documents, pre Colombian art and a whole bunch of other images I won't admit to.

But, when I shot this stuff I did it until my eyes bled and did it as good as possible, but never once did I think that as a ambitious photographer that every minute I was using up shooting some copy, I could be shooting something a whole lot better for my art and career.

Still, as I say your a smart guy and sell your product well, but you do sell your product and know that talking about edge to edge 8 billion pixel sharpness and detail isn't the entire agenda, or even a large part of it for a lot of us.

Anyway, lenses have different effects (and we could talk about it for hours) and I chose a lens for more than focal length or sharpness or whatever.

Both of these images are shot with the Contax and both with different lenses and post production for effect.



The one on the left with an old Boris tilt shift to purposely throw focus, the one on the right with a zeiss 80mm which is more than sharp on any edge.

The cool thing is the lenses costs about nothing and didn't take any gaff tape to see the focus indicator.  (insert one of those silly smiles here).

Now, back to real business, to decide if I drive the Veyron Bleu Centenair or the orange Lambo Aventador L on my way to the Gulfstream today.

Man, I hate these choices.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 05:28:07 am by bcooter »
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fredjeang

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Re: Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2012, 07:09:28 am »


Since I started my career with below zero funds, at the start I shot a lot of stuff for money and some of it was fine documents, pre Colombian art and a whole bunch of other images I won't admit to.

But, when I shot this stuff I did it until my eyes bled and did it as good as possible, but never once did I think that as a ambitious photographer that every minute I was using up shooting some copy, I could be shooting something a whole lot better for my art and career.


(out-of topic)

I was reading this thread by "accident" and appeared those 2 sentences.
It's exactly the answer to what I was looking for through the mist during those weeks. ;)

Cheers.
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