Best used digital back for technical camera

[tmh]

Hi

I'm hoping to move into medium format digital and am searching for the right digital back for my needs. I'm looking at technical cameras such as the Cambo WRS, Alpa, Horseman SWD etc, shooting wide angle and probably stitching for panoramic formats.

I currently shoot large format film (4x10") and scan at 2400dpi giving 9,600 x 24,000 pixels assuming perfect lenses, stable tripod, good scan etc (a rare combination!). I down-rez to print at 17"x42" at 300dpi = 5,100 x 12,600 pixels.

I don't want to invest heavily in a digital back, I just need something that I can learn with and produce decent prints. Something to last 2-3 years whilst the technology becomes better and more affordable.

Ideally I'd find a used back, and have been looking at the entry level Leaf Aptus II 5 at 22mp or something similar from Phase One.

My requirements include
- 22+mp or thereabouts
- must be untethered shooting for portability
- needs to handle long exposures well - I do these often in landscapes / seascapes


If anyone could suggest a model I should be looking out for that would be great...

Thanks in advance

TMH

[asf]

The Aptus 22 is a great back, I used them for a long time.

Capture Integration have one at a very good price right now. They'd be able to steer you in the right direction as to whether this would work for your final needs.

[mediumcool]

The Aptus 22 is a great back, I used them for a long time.

I have one and am very happy with it (my first MFDB); things to watch out for are speed—speed of operation (slow to boot, a second between shots, slow-ish to save over FW400) and sensitivity (best between 25 and 100). Long exposures (past around 10–12 seconds) are pretty crappy. But within its limits, great results can be had. I’m surprised by some of the low-speed handheld shots I have got away with. The A22 also shines with movements, compared to backs with microlenses.

For long exposures, look to backs with Kodak sensors (the Aptus has a Dalsa sensor).

[NicholasR]

At your required print size you may also want to consider a 5d2 with a 24mm ts-e II, using shift to stitch.  I'm currently using that setup and it's really pretty solid.  I'd like to move to a rig such as you are seeking, but I don't think a 22mp back would be enough of a gap over what the canon can provide, and am holding out for a higher res back.

Just a thought...   Live view is pretty nice, as well as motor drive, autofocus for other lenses such as a wonderful 70-200 IS II, lots of cash left over for traveling, etc.

[tmh]

I have one and am very happy with it (my first MFDB); things to watch out for are speed—speed of operation (slow to boot, a second between shots, slow-ish to save over FW400) and sensitivity (best between 25 and 100). Long exposures (past around 10–12 seconds) are pretty crappy. But within its limits, great results can be had. I’m surprised by some of the low-speed handheld shots I have got away with. The A22 also shines with movements, compared to backs with microlenses.

For long exposures, look to backs with Kodak sensors (the Aptus has a Dalsa sensor).

Thanks - I'm surprised these backs have trouble with long exposures. Does this apply to the Aptus II 5 or just the original Aptus 22mp? What really is the issue with long exposures - is it noise in the shadow areas?

Who uses Kodak sensors - Phase One?


Thanks

[ChristopherBarrett]

I'd take a hard look at a P45+.  Does really long exposures.  39 Megapixels makes decent sized prints and the image quality is damn near on par with all the current models.  Good Stuff.  I have no idea what they're going for... maybe 10k?

[mediumcool]

I'd take a hard look at a P45+.  Does really long exposures.  39 Megapixels makes decent sized prints and the image quality is damn near on par with all the current models.  Good Stuff.  I have no idea what they're going for... maybe 10k?

+1 for the long exposure king. My Aptus gets a nasty dark speckle in highlights when given a longish exposure; I’ll look for an example to post.

[mediumcool]

Thanks - I'm surprised these backs have trouble with long exposures. Does this apply to the Aptus II 5 or just the original Aptus 22mp? What really is the issue with long exposures - is it noise in the shadow areas?

Who uses Kodak sensors - Phase One?

See my previous post re noise, and yes, Phase one has tended to use Kodak sensors.

[tmh]

Thanks all...

I think a P45+ is going to be out of my price range for this starter kit, but a P25+ might work - especially if they're better at longer exposures. Has to be a PLUS model otherwise they only work tethered - is that correct?

As for Leaf, I liked the touch screen and the feature on the II models with being able to put the LCC file on the CF card and refer to it when shooting rather than have to shoot a LCC image per photo...


Cheers

[mediumcool]

… a P25+ might work - especially if they're better at longer exposures. Has to be a PLUS model otherwise they only work tethered - is that correct?

The P25 can work independently as it takes a CF card; tethering not required.

[mediumcool]

Just checked; P25 is certified by Phase for exposures up to 32 seconds. Found this reference to 45s; the problem seems to be heat, which can affect the sensor on one side (near the battery). Another link.

[BernardLanguillier]

I'd wait a few weeks since the next gen high end DSLRs are rumored to be released anytime soon.

Whatever back owners claims, I am pretty confident that they will be superior accross the board to 22mp gen backs. More details, more DR, more consistent focus with live view,... and of course cheaper than second hand backs.

Cheers,
Bernard

[torger]

I'd wait a few weeks since the next gen high end DSLRs are rumored to be released anytime soon.

Whatever back owners claims, I am pretty confident that they will be superior accross the board to 22mp gen backs. More details, more DR, more consistent focus with live view,... and of course cheaper than second hand backs.

If you like working with technical cameras doing tilt and shift adjustments for pretty much every shot, then using DSLRs may feel a bit awkward. But concerning sensor, I agree. I looked at second hand tech camera with mfdb, but came to the conclusion that DSLRs with tilt-shift lenses (despite limited number of them) was a better approach for me. In a future, when 135 DSLRs has stressed out lens resolving power (say 40-45 megapixels) and backs like P65+ have been discontinued and are available at affordable second hand prices then digital medium format tech cameras can be a more attractive budget option than it is today.

One problem with the affordable second hand MFDBs today is that the tech is so old that they come from the time when digital had some special issues, like blooming, lack of micro-lenses (wide angle issues), poor long exposure behaviour and such stuff. So I think the second hand MFDB market will be much more attractive in 4-5 years from now. The old sensors are typically also smaller than they are in current MFDBs, often less than twice the size of a 135 DSLR 36x24mm sensor.

P45+ suggested above is great, but is not discontinued and thus the price is still high.

[theguywitha645d]

...time when digital had some special issues...lack of micro-lenses...

Micro lenses are not an issue, they can be a problem when using camera movements. So in one regard, an old back can be very good.

[uaiomex]

Very interesting times. To compare 36mp (rumor) dslr's with 22 mp dbacks. As Torger just said, the original 22mp DB's have sensors with now very old technology especially when we compare them to the nouvelle vague of FF sensors coming this year (rumors).

I wouldn't be surprised if with big prints the old DB's still perform better. Maybe not. I have to see to believe.
If they match the quality of a 6 year old 22 DB, I'll be a very happy photographer. Plus no moire.

Eduardo

I'd wait a few weeks since the next gen high end DSLRs are rumored to be released anytime soon.

Whatever back owners claims, I am pretty confident that they will be superior accross the board to 22mp gen backs. More details, more DR, more consistent focus with live view,... and of course cheaper than second hand backs.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Very interesting times. To compare 36mp (rumor) dslr's with 22 mp dbacks. As Torger just said, the original 22mp DB's have sensors with now very old technology especially when we compare them to the nouvelle vague of FF sensors coming this year (rumors).

I wouldn't be surprised if with big prints the old DB's still perform better. Maybe not. I have to see to believe.
If they match the quality of a 6 year old 22 DB, I'll be a very happy photographer. Plus no moire.

Eduardo,

According to your rumors, who is about to release new MF sensors? Dalsa updated their line up pretty recently and it would be a major change of their release cycle if they released something new. This only leaves us with the former sensor division of Kodak, right? I would be really interestesting to see whether Pentax provided them with enough business to keep some significant R&D activity going. I sincerely hope they will come up with real innovation, including live view enabled sensors based on CMOS tech.

Regarding the results, I agree, we'll need to see in print... but to my eyes that contest was played 3 years ago already. At most print sizes, a 22MP back is difficult to tell apart from a D3x. I did the test comparing it with my former Mamiya ZD. But OK, the 22MP probably had a slight edge.

Realistically, it would be surprising in 2012 if the 22MP backs could still compete with the 36 MP DSLRs from a technical standpoint. I am of course not discusing the look of some lenses,...

Now, that is of course ignoring the fact that the jump from 22 to 36 is in fact not huge. Just like the jump from 36 to 50. My bet is that at A1 print size, it is going to be pretty hard to tell apart a 22MP back, a D3x, a 36MP DSLR, a 39MP back and even a 50MP MFDB. The shooting technique and processing skills are likely to play a bigger role than the characteristics of the sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard

[free1000]

FYI.  All the backs have poor long exposure performance except for the p45+

Even the 22+ has less good long exposure performance.

The p45+ is an oddity, its in a class of its own among backs for long exposure. It can be used for exposures of many minutes whereas all the other backs give up the ghost after 30 seconds pretty much (noise is unbearable).

I shoot a leaf A75 myself on technical cameras for the most part. I also have Canon 5D2, but the appearance of the Leaf files, after proper processing, leaves the Canon files in the shade.  I doubt that a 35mm size chip with 36Mp will be as pretty to look at as a Leaf 33Mp file from the Aptus, but I will be curious to see how they look.
 

[Gary Ferguson]

I've been shooting large format digital for several years, and use a P65+ on a Linhof M679cs. IMO the ideal back for large format hasn't yet been produced, but there's hope that it's getting closer!

The weakest link in the large format digital chain is focusing and composition, the new Phase One IQ range offers real promise of the fast refresh/live view breakthrough that's really needed...but they're not quite there yet. Furthermore, it'll be several years after they finally crack the problem that used backs filter down into the market at a more accessible price.

My advice would be to wait and stick with film unless you really, really need it. Digital capture and large format just don't fit together all that well at the present time.

[JonMo]

I use a Leaf Aptus 65s on my cambos, both wds and wrs.
I am very happy with the 30 sec exposure at base iso 50.

The files using the s35xl are remarkable. I have both the 5d mrk II and 1 DS mrk III with the new 17 TS and the "old tech" of the aptus and 35xl are much more pleasing to my eyes in print.

just my 2 cents.

[Graham Welland]

FYI.  All the backs have poor long exposure performance except for the p45+

Even the 22+ has less good long exposure performance.

The p45+ is an oddity, its in a class of its own among backs for long exposure. It can be used for exposures of many minutes whereas all the other backs give up the ghost after 30 seconds pretty much (noise is unbearable).

Not ALL backs except the P45+ ... I have a P25+ that I use specifically for long exposure work and it'll shoot well beyond 10 minutes and produce very clean images. Sure, the P45+ is the king of the hill but it isn't the only back able to shoot beyond 30s (or 60/120s in the case of IQ backs).

I bought this to use for exactly the same purpose as the OP - long exposure landscape & seascapes on either my Alpa or DF camera systems. It's also a bit less of a financial concern for use for travel plus there are other benefits in terms of extra acceptable achievable DoF in the field vs my IQ back.