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Author Topic: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40  (Read 18706 times)

eronald

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2011, 02:45:17 pm »

This is an excerpt from my Leica S2 review, where I interviewed Peter Karbe, head of optics at Leica.



Nice excerpt; but where are the portrait prime, and the TS lens? I'm sure if Leica had anything like the 110/2 in their system I would have heard of it.

Edmund
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dfarkas

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2011, 03:21:41 pm »

Nice excerpt; but where are the portrait prime, and the TS lens? I'm sure if Leica had anything like the 110/2 in their system I would have heard of it.

Edmund

I think from the interview, it can be assumed that Peter was referring to future lenses. 

Leica has already announced its lens road map. Next lenses are (in order of release) 30mm f/2.8, 24mm f/3.5, 30-90mm f/3.5-5.6, 100mm (unspecified, perhaps f/2), 350mm f/5.6.

My intention was to address the question raised about the S lenses' ability to perform on higher-density, future sensors.

David
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jduncan

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2011, 04:46:56 pm »

Nice excerpt; but where are the portrait prime, and the TS lens? I'm sure if Leica had anything like the 110/2 in their system I would have heard of it.

Edmund

If I could crossbred the systems I will be the happiest men in the world. Ok maybe not, but closer.

Best regards,

James
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eronald

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2011, 07:15:56 pm »

I think from the interview, it can be assumed that Peter was referring to future lenses. 

Leica has already announced its lens road map. Next lenses are (in order of release) 30mm f/2.8, 24mm f/3.5, 30-90mm f/3.5-5.6, 100mm (unspecified, perhaps f/2), 350mm f/5.6.

My intention was to address the question raised about the S lenses' ability to perform on higher-density, future sensors.

David


Thank you for the announcement information. I guess we'll all take it under advisement - I am certain that Leica S lenses are superb; the body strikes me as overpriced and overhyped. I just wish that Leica would bite the bullet, follow Zeiss, make Nikon and Canon mount lenses and grow into a huge operation like Sigma.

Edmund
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paulmoorestudio

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2011, 10:37:07 am »

that is a good one.. encourage leica to follow sigma's lead 
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paratom

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2011, 11:02:47 am »

Nice excerpt; but where are the portrait prime, and the TS lens? I'm sure if Leica had anything like the 110/2 in their system I would have heard of it.

Edmund

Hi Emund,
there is the 120/2.5 which works pretty good for portrait.
The TS-lens I am missing too.
Tom
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eronald

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2011, 12:20:10 pm »

that is a good one.. encourage leica to follow sigma's lead 


Sigma have been clawing their way steadily up the food chain, and now make their own sensors (Foveon) a very good albeit overpriced SLR and some nice compacts in addition to some very good lenses. And they seem to be well distributed and well established buisnesswise. I don't see why anyone should blush at the comparison.

Edmund
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fotometria gr

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2011, 12:33:48 pm »

Mark,

I didn't want to imply that the cameras mentioned by the OP are a bad choice or cannot be used for that.

But you say it yourself: "... they (tech cameras) offer options (tilt/shift) not readily available in a DSLR format Medium format system and ultra fine detail
resolution at the wide end that is a step above current MF options ..."

All is said here, for me, especially when shooting landscapes and nature. I am not saying this with my Alpa hat, but as a photographer who has worked for 20 years with tech and LF cameras with movements. For me landscape/nature photography is first synonym of fun when shooting, thinking about the image and building it up slowly with my eyes first, and then with the camera and its almost unlimited possibilities. And, still for me, this means to use a camera with which I am not limited by any means on the technical side, being able to move my sharpness plane precisely, by tilting, by swinging, to shift when necessary a few mm either to get something in or may be out of the frame from a given viewpoint, or to shift for a panoramic view when the subject allows it, to use the finest lenses with the highest possible resolution and image circles allowing these movements, and to have a camera that is built to get the most out of the current sensors without any compromise concerning precision.

I don't need (and I don't want) AF or all the settings such DSLR MF cameras are offering to the users, and I don't need nor want to shoot at the speed that such cameras almost force me to (or may be I should rather say that the tech camera forces me to slow down).

Color cast issues can be dealt with very quickly and efficiently, when using the right software. It simply needs an additional shaded shot with each image taken. To deal with this later on the software level is almost no deal, for me and IMO. And one does not have to deal with it with all lenses, most of them are not showing color casts.

I don't see any shooting option limitations with a system like the Alpa. Alpa is building cameras and accessories which are very versatile and part of an integrated and complete system, interchangeable and usable on all Alpa 12 cameras, this since now more than 15 years.

But this is only my opinion, that's the way I understand landscape and nature photography and want it to be for me, having time with my camera and remember later this time I had to create my image, step by step.

Best regards
Thierry

+1. Just to add, for all of the above to be valid, MFDB manufacturers must follow an "open system" policy, rather than the SUICIDAL "closed system" policy they follow, especially Hass and P1 that they buy back their older (very capable) MFDBs just to vanish them from the market, its not only that they drive very capable "periferal or specialized" companies like Alpa or others to extortion but they also turn the "educated" part of the market to "hate" them and of course consequently not trust them. Personally, I'm not using an Alpa (I may be in the future) but a bulky and heavy P2, which I supplement with my Contax 645 and my Imacon 528c back, if I was to change or advance my system digitally, I would have to abandon 50% of my work due to incompatibility or spend 100k to advance less than 10% on some matters only! That is why I recommend to the OP to "never go with a closed system". I have always approached photography from the "absolutely solve" rather than the "absolute solution" POV and I will continue to do so as long as I live, my 17 active cameras of all formats and media, 162 lenses, MFDB, Roundshot and video equipment, has cost me less than any flashy IQ180 alone and I do 200% more things with it! I'm also much more proud of putting all this together.... So, my advise to the OP would be.... "give your money to charity and do some photography for a change.... just for a change! Cheers, Theodoros, www.fotometria.gr
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Johnphoto

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2011, 01:37:01 pm »

Wow, once again we have a theoretical discussion about if you could really use a Leica S2 or even a Hasselblad in the field. Holy Christ! Look at Hans Strand www.hansstrand.com . He is as far as I understand shooting Hasselblad and not in studio conditions either. He certainly proofs that at least his camera works perfectly fine for what he is doing.
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fotometria gr

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2011, 04:27:55 pm »

Wow, once again we have a theoretical discussion about if you could really use a Leica S2 or even a Hasselblad in the field. Holy Christ! Look at Hans Strand www.hansstrand.com . He is as far as I understand shooting Hasselblad and not in studio conditions either. He certainly proofs that at least his camera works perfectly fine for what he is doing.
Definitely! But your reading isn't (working perfectly)! :o
Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
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Willow Photography

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2011, 05:20:45 pm »

"my 17 active cameras of all formats and media, 162 lenses, MFDB, Roundshot and video equipment, has cost me less than any flashy IQ180 alone"

I serously doubt that all of that, including a P2, a Contax 645 and a Hasselblad back, cost less than a IQ180 .-). I mean only the 162 lenses must cost as much as a IQ180. If it is not only 162 Canon/Nikon kit lenses.

Or maybe you where just making a point!?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 05:26:10 pm by Willow Photography »
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fotometria gr

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2011, 07:27:24 pm »

"my 17 active cameras of all formats and media, 162 lenses, MFDB, Roundshot and video equipment, has cost me less than any flashy IQ180 alone"

I serously doubt that all of that, including a P2, a Contax 645 and a Hasselblad back, cost less than a IQ180 .-). I mean only the 162 lenses must cost as much as a IQ180. If it is not only 162 Canon/Nikon kit lenses.

Or maybe you where just making a point!?

Of course its making a point, some of those, like my AIS primes have been bought in the 80s and I don't count them at all, My CZJ 65, 180, and 300 as well as the Arsat 30 and 2x Hartblei TC which I use as supplements on my Contax 645 bodies along with the 35, 45, 55, 80, 120m, 140, 210 & 45-90 originals, have cost me less than the Nikon kit lenses (that is for the supplements only of course), my beloved 2 Voightlander Prominents along with their lenses were a gift 30 years ago from my now passed away uncle when he realized my passion for photography, the rest of the CZJ series (50, 80 & 120) I rarely use with my P6 and Arax cm88ml ....so it doesn't count. The AF-s 400mm f2.8 .....I'm gonna sell, so I haven't count for that either (cheating?). I guess that only leaves the usual 14-24, 24-70, 70-200Vr2 and the 17-35, 50, 105mVr and the 20 (the rest are the AIs primes, f/e and PCs that don't count), AH! The Contax system counts only as half because I replaced my older Bronica ETRSi bodies with the 10 ps lenses that also doesn't count because It was a replacement of my ETRS system with the MC lenses from the 80s! I guess I have my own way of counting.... but its true that I rarely upgrade! (well... other than my DSLRs that is) Do the TCs count?, the Film slrs? the Sinar LF system? ::) I really hope you had some fun with my answer! :) Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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Willow Photography

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2011, 07:40:41 pm »

 ;D

I have to take a lesson from you on how to count.

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fotometria gr

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2011, 07:57:35 pm »

;D

I have to take a lesson from you on how to count.


It will ....cost you!!! ;D Cheers, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2011, 12:29:49 am »

Hi!

Just some thoughts...

An MFDB is more flexible. You can put in on a view camera, an MF DSLR or one of these: http://www.hcam.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm.

The S2 welded to the MFDB. You cannot upgrade your sensor when a new one arrives. Phase One offers a nice upgrade path. Hasselblad probably does too.

Leica lenses are probably second to none, except possibly the best Schneider and Rodenstock lenses designed for digital. Hasselblad lenses are probably not in the same league, but may be good enough.

For ultimate precision you would perhaps prefer an Alpa with matched lenses from Alpa?

The Hasselblad is a very good camera. It's also a truly professional one.

Best regards
Erik


I would like to make the move from 35mm to MF.  I photograph nature, landscape and abstract.  I do not do studio work.
I want to make (and even now often do) prints 20x30 and preferably larger.  I do appreciate the "micro contrast" look for MF.
I am considering the Lecia S2 and the Hasselblaud H4D-40.  (I am "coming from" the Nikon 35 mm world.) 

I am trying to weigh the pros/cons, the advantages/disadvantages of these two systems.  I have been fortunate enough to
use the Leica for 4 days and must admit that I was extremely impressed by the image quality and of course, its form factor
is very similar to the Nikon D3X, so it did feel "familiar" to me.  I have not been able to try the Hasselblaud, although I am
trying to arrange that. 

But a couple days of use is not the same as weeks or months, and I would deeply appreciate  comments or advice from
anyone who has had the opportunity to work with both of these systems "in the real world."  I am interested in comments
relating to (a) the body/back and (b) the "glass". 

I know that this is somewhat an "open ended" request, and that there is not a conclusive or absolute "answer", but I accept this.

I must also in fairness admit, that my greatest hesitancy with regard to the Leica is the price and this is especially noteworthy
since it is  a single integrated system, without an obvious upgrade pathway and from a company without a track record in MF
(i.e. may or may not stay in this format).

Thank you, I deeply appreciate your help.






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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2011, 03:44:09 am »


Leica lenses are probably second to none, except possibly the best Schneider and Rodenstock lenses designed for digital. Hasselblad lenses are probably not in the same league, but may be good enough.


Based on what evidence?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2011, 04:44:20 am »

Hi,

MTF curves published by Leica, Schneider, Rodenstock and Hasselblad.

I'm fully aware that the values that Hasselblad published are base measured samples and the data presented by Leica may be calculated.

I'd recommend that you check this article by Joseph Holmes: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

Also, Lloyd Chambers has published images from both Hasselblad and Leica on his DAP site.

It seems to be some kind of consensus that the Leica lenses for the S2 are about as good lenses can get. I have no way to prove or disprove that.

Best regards
Erik

Based on what evidence?
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David Grover / Capture One

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2011, 05:40:53 am »

Joe Holmes' article is quite dated now, but still useful.

As far as the Lloyd Chambers article goes, it seems to go against the response of the customers, so the jury is a little bit out on that one!

D



Hi,

MTF curves published by Leica, Schneider, Rodenstock and Hasselblad.

I'm fully aware that the values that Hasselblad published are base measured samples and the data presented by Leica may be calculated.

I'd recommend that you check this article by Joseph Holmes: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

Also, Lloyd Chambers has published images from both Hasselblad and Leica on his DAP site.

It seems to be some kind of consensus that the Leica lenses for the S2 are about as good lenses can get. I have no way to prove or disprove that.

Best regards
Erik

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Erick Boileau

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2011, 06:34:33 am »

Wow, once again we have a theoretical discussion about if you could really use a Leica S2 or even a Hasselblad in the field. Holy Christ! Look at Hans Strand www.hansstrand.com . He is as far as I understand shooting Hasselblad and not in studio conditions either. He certainly proofs that at least his camera works perfectly fine for what he is doing.
Jeff Grant is also shooting with H4D 40 and before with a H3D II 39 ONLY landscapes --> http://www.jeff-grant.com/
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica S2 vs. Hasselblaud H4D-40
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2011, 10:18:14 am »

Hi,

Lloyd is shooting a lot of different systems and has experience with some of the best lenses and has done a lot of tests, so I guess he is quite qualified to judge.

Regarding MTF curves here is a comparison of 75 mm Leica with 80 mm Hasselblad HC and 35 mm Leica with 35 mm Hasselblad HC respectively. Hasselblad on the left and Leica on the right.

Hasselblad normally uses 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm. Leica probably uses 5, 10, 20, 40 lp/mm, so the three lowermost curves would be comparable. I have nothing against Hasselblad and I'm not in favor of Leica. But the OP asks for info on both systems.

Best regards
Erik



Joe Holmes' article is quite dated now, but still useful.

As far as the Lloyd Chambers article goes, it seems to go against the response of the customers, so the jury is a little bit out on that one!

D
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