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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III  (Read 14986 times)

Mike Sellers

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Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« on: May 27, 2011, 01:27:01 pm »

For landscape photography which would make the best outfit? If the new Canon is 33mp or more would it be a "better" system? Then there are the Canon tilt/shift lenses too.
Mike
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Alex MacPherson

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2011, 01:43:54 pm »

So you want us to make a recommendation about a camera that only exists as a prototype somewhere in the Canon R&D department? A camera that nobody knows the specs for aside from speculation?

yeah....
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2011, 03:40:01 pm »

John,
Just what I was looking for from somone experienced with the Leaf. Thanks
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archivue

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2011, 04:58:29 pm »

i've bought an aptus 22 6 month after the 5D II... i didn't use any more my canon 5D II till then !

so it all depends on your shooting style !

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billthecat

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2011, 07:41:09 am »

I have a ZD not a 22, but they're about the same. The Leaf won't be any good once the sun goes down, but the Canon will be nice after the sun goes down and during the night.

Bill
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bcooter

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2011, 03:24:42 pm »

Quote
I have a ZD not a 22, but they're about the same. The Leaf won't be any good once the sun goes down, but the Canon will be nice after the sun goes down and during the night.



An aptus 22 compared to a 5d2 are really different cameras, regardless of what body the Aptus is mounted on.

For some work the 22 is nice, for other work, like most people mention low light, it's not the perfect camera, but it all depends on how you work, what you shoot.

I had an early 22 mounted on a contax and it had it's issues, once with overheating, (which leaf fixed), then with a bad lcd (which leaf fixed) and last with the overshooting issue (which leaf fixed).

I liked the back for certain situations, but compared to my phase backs which have never had a service issue, I think "my" aptus was more problematic.

But you have to keep in mind this was a very early aptus 22 and I think Leaf has since fixed most of the issues.

If I was buying new, I would consider a Leaf, buying used . . . I'd be more careful.

Once I got my phase backs I used the Leaf for commerce less and less, for personal work more, but a lot of that was with personal work I didn't tether as much.

The issues people mention in tethering the Leaf comes from low or unstable firewire output, as the Leaf backs battery has to be removed for tethering.

On some apple computers I could run 30' easily with a gold non powered repeater, on others I couldn't.  In fact I could probably write a list of the computers that work better with Aptus and the ones that don't.

Still, it shoots a pretty file and shot at 200 iso, processed in photoshop it has a grain like structure that mimics film.

This was shot a while back, using the Aptus and the Boris tilt shift lens.  Only the modeling lights were used for shooting and the exposure was somewhat slow around 1/15th or something like that.

I shot the aptus for this image like I would a view camera, using a power book mounted next to the tripod to check focus.



IMO

BC






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tikal

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2011, 08:21:05 pm »

your portfolio is ridiculous bcooter. Thanks for the input on the Leaf. I'm still deciding between film scanning or a leaf aptus 22. This helped a bit!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2011, 09:07:50 pm »

For landscape photography which would make the best outfit? If the new Canon is 33mp or more would it be a "better" system? Then there are the Canon tilt/shift lenses too.
Mike

I would personnaly want to check first whether the engineers at Canon have finally decided to include DR as one of the key parameters to optimize for during sensor design before commiting to a 5DIII for landscape work.

The shadows of the 5DII are currently far noisier than those of MFDB or the best DSLR from the competition.

If video is important for you as well as still, the Canon is probably the best compromise in town though.

Cheers,
Bernard

DaveCurtis

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2011, 11:09:59 pm »

The current iteration is rather lenghty for Canon, so one asumes there will be a reasonible jump in IQ(not just mega pixels), especially now that Nikon has taken the leed at the pro end.
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Frank Doorhof

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2011, 03:20:59 am »

For landscapes I think MF will be the better, you can use a tripod when the light gets dimmer, and exposures of several seconds can come out great when developed through the leaf software.

But remember that for most people it's no choice of DSLR OR MF
it's horses for courses, I love my 5DMKII for street photography and walk around camera in NY but when driving through california it hardly gets used because it's all the MF camera.

If I have time to take the shot without a doubt the leaf, if I want quick and difficult lighting situations I will go for the DSLR. I know no photographers that never shoot DSLRs.
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2011, 08:45:30 am »

An aptus 22 compared to a 5d2 are really different cameras, regardless of what body the Aptus is mounted on.

For some work the 22 is nice, for other work, like most people mention low light, it's not the perfect camera, but it all depends on how you work, what you shoot.

I had an early 22 mounted on a contax and it had it's issues, once with overheating, (which leaf fixed), then with a bad lcd (which leaf fixed) and last with the overshooting issue (which leaf fixed).

I liked the back for certain situations, but compared to my phase backs which have never had a service issue, I think "my" aptus was more problematic.

But you have to keep in mind this was a very early aptus 22 and I think Leaf has since fixed most of the issues.

If I was buying new, I would consider a Leaf, buying used . . . I'd be more careful.

Once I got my phase backs I used the Leaf for commerce less and less, for personal work more, but a lot of that was with personal work I didn't tether as much.

The issues people mention in tethering the Leaf comes from low or unstable firewire output, as the Leaf backs battery has to be removed for tethering.

On some apple computers I could run 30' easily with a gold non powered repeater, on others I couldn't.  In fact I could probably write a list of the computers that work better with Aptus and the ones that don't.

snip


Hi,

I cannot second all the issues with leaf backs, but we have never been early adaptors so we might have been lucky. Regarding IQ and price level I´d suggest to take a look at the Aptus 75S or AII-7, best compromise IMO. As others already stated, all depends on your working style, for our work it´s MF, no exception. The 5DMKII is nice for us to get into video  8)

Cheers, Ulf

uaiomex

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2011, 02:52:22 pm »

They better! Canon at least has to match current Nikon offerings. The AF still leaves things to be desired. It is time for Canon to honor its EOS moniker. If they don't seriously address these 2 things, I'm afraid we will see substantial desertion.
Eduardo


I would personnaly want to check first whether the engineers at Canon have finally decided to include DR as one of the key parameters to optimize for during sensor design before commiting to a 5DIII for landscape work.

The shadows of the 5DII are currently far noisier than those of MFDB or the best DSLR from the competition.

If video is important for you as well as still, the Canon is probably the best compromise in town though.

Cheers,
Bernard

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2011, 05:36:38 pm »

I think the best way to prognosticate about the next Canon is to evaluate what improvements or features are going to sell the most 1Ds IV vs. what it costs (in time, trade-offs, per-unit price-increase, and R+D) to include it. Some options are...

Ideal-situation image quality
e.g. tonal smoothness, shadow color accuracy, dynamic range, shadow noise at low ISO, bokeh, bit depth, color gamut and feel - assuming low ISO, MUP, self timer, use of any quality-increasing options like Nikon's optional 14-bit recording mode

Hard-situation image quality
the same, but assuming high-ISO, image stabilization

Ideal-situation usability
e.g. a physical button to access mirror-up mode

Hard-situation usability
e.g. low-light autofocus, TTL flash sophistication, aperture-priority metering in difficult lighting situations etc

X-factors
Completely new features that create new market segments or drastically alter the usage of the camera.

Past examples:
- 1080p video to the 5DII that created an entire HDSLR product segment
- eye-tracking autofocus (didn't work but they hoped it would be an x-factor)

Possible future examples:
- Raw video
- Touch Screen Interface
- 3D capture
- (useful) wireless tethering
- leaf shutters
- electronic shutter
- elimination of the rolling-shutter on video capture
- sensor based image-sensor stabilization
- timeline based RAW files (i.e. very short very high-res raw video and allowing math-based image stabilization and the ability to post-hoc change the shutter speed vs. ISO and slightly re-tune the moment captured - e.g. in sports photography and replacing ultra-high speed motor drives)
- drastically improved Autofocus
- complete unknown (to the informed public) new tech [what the heck I'll take a shot - sonar, dual-lens-for-3d, or remote-device-assisted mapping of the environment for drastically improved autofocus including in difficult situations, or artificial intelligence based focusing a la "keep focus on the red head's eyes"]

Like any business Canon is competing against other brands that produce similar products, but I'd argue it's biggest competition is the "good enough" rational of it's installed customer base. To be successful a new Canon camera doesn't have to be better than other brands (though it surely helps), but it MUST provide a definable reason for a satisfied 1Ds III or 5DII owner to put down the cash to replace their "good enough" body. For that reason the X-factors are very compelling.

A 1DsIV with raw video for instance would open up an entire market which otherwise would not buy. A 1DsIV with an electronic shutter could create demand for an entire new line of lenses. A 1DsIV with sensor-based image stabilization and an another two stops of useful ISO compared to the 5DII could compel those already happy with their Canon to cough up more $.

On the other hand a 1DsIV with incrementally improved image quality at base ISO would be a significant selling point to a pretty small minority of the total target market.

It's not a fully zero-sum game; Canon can improve image quality while adding an x-factor and other improvements. However, you can only have one #1 priority, and product-engineering is defined by a series of compromises.

So bottom line I'm not holding my breath that the 1Ds IV will blow me away with improved image quality; though I'm very confident it will include at least one x-factor and perform better at high ISO.

(note to any new readers - I must be considered biased as I work for a company which is both a Canon dealer and a Phase One / Leaf dealer, but which makes most of it's revenue from Phase/Leaf - though I do assert the above prognostication as my honest best-guesses).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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uaiomex

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2011, 06:41:11 pm »

I think the most likely new features to come in Canon full frames are in this order:

1. More mp's
2. Articulated screen
3. Touch screen
4. Real 14 bit sensor
5. On-off AA filter switch

Eduardo
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bcooter

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2011, 03:24:05 pm »

I think the most likely new features to come in Canon full frames are in this order:
.......snip.........


Since this has been taken slightly off topic by a medium format reseller, I think it's okay to continue.

You know, I don't know any professional whose total income is derived from photography that ever starts a project with the thought of using only what is "good enough".

I do know that once creative briefs are set, then changed, then changed again and you've been given the green light to go ahead the first thing you think about when it comes to equipment is what will allow me/our studio to produce more in style and content than is expected.

The second thing you think of is what happens if all of it stops working, or the client changes the brief in the middle of the project?   That's where options, backups and trucks that have more than 4 wheels come in.

But when it comes to selecting your A camera, sometimes that can be a more detailed file, but usually to achieve the  "more than expected goal" is to make sure you have the equipment that allows you the time and speed to really capture that one interesting moment in still and video.  

We're finishing the editorial of several videos from a recent project.   90% is shot with the RED, 10% with the 5d2, 100% of the stills with a 1ds 3.

As much as the RED file is technically superior, the camera is large, takes more setup time and can only fit into certain spaces.  Then it's a 5d2 and not because it's good enough, because it's one of the few cameras that will fit in the designated space and allow us to capture what is on the creative brief.

It's funny, I don't see where clients notice the still camera you use, but they do notice the RED (probably because it's become a catch phrase and because it's so large).   Then again after the shoot and all the galleries have been posted, both still and motion, the only thing the agency and clients notice is did you get that elusive image they have on the ever expanding creative brief.  

They don't know, or really care if the image is raw or h264.  

They don't care if the tonal value is 10% different or the color is 18% different because most know that once we get to a locked cut, everything will be sent to some form of third party software to color and match each image to style and normalize the look of the video.  10, 12, 14 or 16 bits is just a term that makes a client's or AD's eyes glass over because they don't consider that part of the technique their problem.  It's my problem, or the retouchers problem or the post house's problem and we/they will deliver.

The reason I bring this up, is because the same can be said with stills.  Every client wants to see as close to the exact look on set, or at least a pleasing look, but every client knows there will be rounds and rounds of post processing, retouching and final coloring before the images get into play.

So for the next generation of cameras, still or motion, expensive or reasonable, ultra mega pixels or moderate, the real motivational factor to move people to buy will be functions that allow the artist and business person the ability to tell an interesting story,keep the imagery in focus and most importantly allow whoever you work for to impress the people that hire them.

To me the real motivating factor of my next camera purchase will be moveable iso and I'm hoping somewhere down the line, a type of face/subject recognition auto focus that is touch screen.  Touch on one subject and the camera tracks focus all the way through the take (if so desired).

To me innovation like that will be a game changer, but given all of that, the real need in still to motion convergence is software that can easily and affordably do to motion images what i can do with stills.

Something like lightroom for video correction, but anything that allows you to work faster, cleaner and more creatively without the down time of learning whole new processes that come very close to doing the same thing.

Most people don't know this but cs5/6 extended allows you to correct and effect video.  It's a little different than working on stills, but not the same leap as learning color,  scratch, or Divinici or the 5 other suites that work with video/film/motion imagery.

As cameras converge, so should software.  At least I hope so.

But. . . to answer the original poster on the question of an Aptus vs. a 5d2 anyone would have to see his present work, know his client base or reasoning and the most important what level he wants to take his photography.


IMO

BC

« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 03:26:14 pm by bcooter »
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uaiomex

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2011, 03:55:35 pm »

Good thread. You guys keep it alive. Great way to hijack someone's thread. :)
Eduardo

Since this has been taken slightly off topic by a medium format reseller, I think it's okay to continue.

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mediumcool

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 09:43:42 am »

I have an Aptus 22 and love it.

But it’s heavy and so is the camera it goes on (Mamiya 645AFD). It starts out at iso 25 and goes to 400 (which I have never used). I usually use iso100 if not locked down on a tripod, but that has some noise (which is quite well-handled by Capture One). 200 is a tad noisy, but does sorta look like film.

A Canon will kill the Aptus at high sensitivities and for action work, but may not have the creaminess and crispness that a large sensor without anti-aliasing can provide.

Snap taken at lunch yesterday M645/Aptus 22 iso100 Mamiya 50mm Shift lens 1/30 f5.6 . Love the smoothness and bokeh! But I have a Pentax SLR for the ordinary stuff.




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fredjeang

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2011, 12:59:48 pm »

To keep-up with BC post, yesterday night I had a drink with a cine prod executive. Very good looking and enjoyable woman by the way and we decided to keep pro contact for certain assignments.

She was involved with Almodovar during 15days in a recent movie and told me about this: they had to make a take of Penelope Cruz from the celling but it was technically impossible to acheive that take with the main camera because there was a (medical) machine in the roof. As every minute costs fortune in motion, they worked with the Penelope dub to preapare the scene, and guess what? they used the 5D2 because it was the only device that could fit in the available space to acheive this particular take.

Nobody cares about the magic properties of the equipment, it's all about reaching a goal. If it can't be done with this, it will be done with that. It seems that this is really hard to be understood or accepted in the photo-forums.

Leaf aptus vs 5D2, or whatever kind of versus, I'm thinking that there is no such thing as versus, both are tools, with each one different advantages. To me, the artist is the one that uses accurately the most accurate tool for a specific purpose to acheive a specific visual goal.

-----

Ps for coot: I'm absolutly aware that you think, and think wisedly, about numbers when you are talking about a convergence solution without having to reinvent the wheel (I mean more learning curve).
I've been trying the PS video edition. It is interesting I must say.
But if I can understand your position in the content, I'd like to precise something. Those, let's say 3 latest months, I've been really testing many softwares, workflows, spend long and long hours with cine pros, doing many short cuts to compare different solutions and spending a lot of time learning etc...
I'm never in favor of adding more unnecessary learning curve on the chain, specially with video high-end softwares because that is another story than learning PS, C1 or those HDR stuff. But I know this: the time "lost" in learning dedicated softwares like for ex Smoke is a great amount of time saved very soon. There is a convergence happening in that terrain, softwares that where divided in suites are merging in one and prices are going down.
I've seen that with Red, specially with Red cameras, it is crucial, working with MC and grading in Scratch (for ex) is absolutly astonishing in terms of workflow efficiency (in that reasonable price range). The interface is designed for that in all aspects. Hasslefree.
If I want to do the same result as Autodesk let's say in After-effects, I can, no doubt. But then, plug-ins, unfriendly interface for the task, files issues, rendering time doubled or tripled etc...oh, and I noticed that the concentration is harder to keep because the software is a mess. It can be done but there is a price to pay that each indivudual will determined if it's worth or not.
My point is that in some situations, entering a serious unfriendly learning curve today can be an enormous time and money saver tomorrow. What I did those latest months is really clear about it, I have zero doubt now. More opaque is a possible coming "Lightroom" for video and I doubt it would really be designed as well as brands with long experience in motion industry.

I don't have of course the authority to discuss your choices or anyone else's. Knowing that you are far from dreaming, you must have good reasons. I know exactly where I am and do not forget about your talent, experience and ww recognition. But I think this time you are doing a "risky" analysis, hopping Apple to release the next generation and resisting in a way to enter tough learning curve. I know that we are under pressure and don't have time, I understand you totally, despite of that, I think that the softwares you are looking for already exist in different brands and will give you an incredible autonomy and a way faster workflow. What you do in 2 days today would be done in less than 5 hours. Yes there is a serious learning curve but it's worth and it's now. Also, the brand effect you are talking about RED also works with those softwares if I judge by how the studios advertise proudly their suites.

I have to admit that autodesk learning is extremely oscur and tough, but Scratch not at all. Much more easy that I thought at first. So it's not too dark. Can it be compared to PS? IMO, no. I simply take any RED footage that I can change the all Raw parameters, isos etc..., color grade instantaniously, apply to the bin, return and reconform...in 10 minutes I did more tasks than just the time to open PS and start to play with the video files. It's different, already made for an industry where an hour is a money issue so they are incredibly efficient.

Do I want to influence you James? I admit I do. I know I have very little authority to give advices to the big boys of this forum but hey, it's just my nature.

Just wanted to share my 2$ experience.
 
 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 07:20:07 pm by fredjeang »
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pschefz

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 06:08:36 pm »

i think the new phase 180 would be a better landscape solution...better detail and better tones and DR....

if money is an issue, stick with the 5dII...the aptus (and really all backs of similar age/resolution) will give you nice results, sometimes really,really nice...but the drawbacks in handling, speed, and basic MF and especially DMF problems that are hard to explain but can really be a major pain, especially with older backs....that and the probably still higher price make the 5DII the easy choice....because unless you have very specific needs, it pretty much is the easy choice for everyone and everything....(if you shoot jewelry in studio, get the aptus...)
the 5DIII will have higher resolution and i am sure canon will not let the d3x stay on top all by itself in the DR dept and faster AF and and and....will we see the 5DIII within a year or so...probably...do you want to take a few shots next week? going with the canon will also make sure your investment in lenses (today) will be a better one...unless they make the sensor larger which i HOPE! and doubt....

i know 3 people who have waited more then a year to buy a 5DII because "the new one is coming out soon anyway" and all 3 finally broke down and bought it....i have never seen a digital camera keep its price up so long...so high...and good luck getting a deal on a used one....
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Leaf Aptus 22 vs New Canon 5D Mark III
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2011, 06:59:18 pm »

i think the new phase 180 would be a better landscape solution...better detail and better tones and DR....

if money is an issue, stick with the 5dII...the aptus (and really all backs of similar age/resolution) will give you nice results, sometimes really,really nice...but the drawbacks in handling, speed, and basic MF and especially DMF problems that are hard to explain but can really be a major pain, especially with older backs....that and the probably still higher price make the 5DII the easy choice....because unless you have very specific needs, it pretty much is the easy choice for everyone and everything....(if you shoot jewelry in studio, get the aptus...)
the 5DIII will have higher resolution and i am sure canon will not let the d3x stay on top all by itself in the DR dept and faster AF and and and....will we see the 5DIII within a year or so...probably...do you want to take a few shots next week? going with the canon will also make sure your investment in lenses (today) will be a better one...unless they make the sensor larger which i HOPE! and doubt....

i know 3 people who have waited more then a year to buy a 5DII because "the new one is coming out soon anyway" and all 3 finally broke down and bought it....i have never seen a digital camera keep its price up so long...so high...and good luck getting a deal on a used one....


Indeed, I noticed the other day that used Canon 5DMK-II cameras at KEH were listed at $2,599, $199 higher than new pricing because of the inventory shortage.


Steve Hendrix
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