Topic: PhotoPhase problem, lines on image (Read 8077 times)

billthecat · « **on:** February 27, 2011, 02:26:20 am »

Hi,

I got an old Phase One PhotoPhase scanner for 4x5. The problem is that I get lines on the image always in the same spot. The seller thinks that it is a static electricity problem. I bought a scanner & monitor anti static cleaning liquid and used a lot of it twice to clean the sensor, and I still get exactly the same lines after cleaning. You can see in the image.

Does anyone know what the problem is? Is it still a static problem? Is there something wrong with the sensor that can't be fixed? The seller said that it was working perfectly before shipping.

Thanks,
Bill

michele · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2011, 04:05:17 am »

Hi,
I don't know if it's the same for you, but with my P45+ i had some problems, sometimes a line appeared in the same position, not the same line of your device, sometimes the back couldn't star up and so on. I sent my back to PhaseOne and they did a service check. My back is just came back and it seems to be in perfect working order...
They told me that for a good care of my back i should send it to them once every 12-18 months for a service check...

billthecat · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2011, 09:56:32 am »

Thanks. I assume PhaseOne would charge me more than I would want to pay as I was trying to be budget here. The seller still says that static looks like the problem so I'll try more stuff with anti static this afternoon and see if that helps.

Bill

Peter Devos · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2011, 10:03:21 am »

I also tested a Photophase i got yesterday , a great back BTW but never had such bad image as that with any Phase scanback. The entire image is smurred with pink lines.

billthecat · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2011, 10:36:44 am »

I'd like to see how you fix it. When I apply extreme contrast to my image I can see a lot of hidden lines across all across.

Bill

Peter Devos · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2011, 10:46:49 am »

Hi Bill, I meant i never had such a bad image as yours with any of my scanbacks from 1996 until now. I think there is more going on than only static. You work on a macwith decent scsi card?

billthecat · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2011, 10:39:51 pm »

Hi Peter,

It is a PhotoPhase Plus. I'm using a Windows XP SP3 notebook with an Adaptec 1460D card. The computer and software appear to work fine.

I bought an anti static scanner cleaner and put that on my PecPads for cleaning. I went to the bathroom with better grounding and no carpet but the line is just as before. I also touched a water pipe and tried to discharge anything else from the camera. The main thing is it's unchanging nature.

Here's what the seller said:

hi bill, sorry to hear the artifact is still there - it did take a while
before it went away for me. Do you have carpet? Sometimes that produces
static. What I would do would be clean the sensor then after the ribbon has
returned "home" on the worm gear I'd load the back into the camera but I
wouldn't drop the slide - I think this is where the static comes from - I
just placed the back in the camera with the slide open. My wife reminded me
that this exact situation was what I encountered when I first set up (she
has a much better memory than me).

Bill

Doug Peterson · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:02:31 pm »

Without a knowledgeable dealer or previous personal experience with these systems trying to figure this out is going to be very challenging unless you're lucky and it's one of the easy answers.

If the unit requires repair you should know that Phase One will not be able to help you as they have end-of-lifed the SCSI based scan backs which means limited support and no repairs. Phase has a long history of support of their legacy products and in this case the SCSI based scan backs were supported for 14 years after introduction. By the way, the FX series (which is firewire based) is still fully supported; they are definitely a niche/specialized tool but we still several every year, including the support/instruction/installation of the system. To be clear however Our company hasn't sold a SCSI based system at least in the last three years (and maybe never).

Lines in scanback images can come from variation in voltage on the power source, from 60hz interference on the power source, from bad electronics, from unclean filter glass, from flicker of the light source, variation in the light source, etc etc etc.

The most common I came across were non-continous light sources like halogen. To test this simply use a source like tungsten or a sunny day to expose and see if the lines are still there. This normally produces much thinner lines (e.g. single pixel wide). Not to mention that if the lines are in the same place every image, and you've already *thoroughly* cleaned the filter glass (and the lines did not change meaningfully before and after the cleaning), I fear that is not the issue and it may be a mechanical issue (not a terrible surprise for a back that is probably 12-15 years old). The static explanation doesn't ring any bells for me for lines that are the same in each image and based on your test in the bathroom seems further to indicate it's not likely.

Good luck!

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Peter Devos · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:10:04 am »

"Lines in scanback images can come from variation in voltage on the power source, from 60hz interference on the power source, from flicker of the light source, variation in the light source, etc etc etc." and mostly run in the other direction, 90degree on the running path of the scanback, iow horizontal.

billthecat · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:35:31 am »

Doug,

Thanks for the info.

All the lines are in the direction of the scan. And they are the same in each image. If the light source was flickering I'd assume that it would make lines perpendicular to the scan. I have used tungsten and halogen. I have no problems from perpendicular lines.

I've been cleaning many times. I'd expect some kind of change from my cleaning but there has been no change.

The seller says he still suspects static and had the same problem before.

Every single picture has the same lines. I have attached a photo from my bathroom with tungsten lighting that I made tonight.

Bill

Peter Devos · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2011, 03:40:09 am »

Anyone interested in starting a small "scanback user group" to share our expreiances. I use a Studiokit, a photophase, just sold my Powephase and someone is interested in my Betterlight back. So we are at least 4 persons using them over here. Just an idea of mine....

Kumar · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2011, 07:08:28 am »

I don't think this problem has anything to do with static or the electronics of the back. The lines in the image are most probably caused by stubborn dust/dirt on the sensor surface. You should be able to see this if you aim a hard light at an angle at the sensor. You will notice that the lines are most visible in the brighter parts of the image. One easy way to trouble-shoot this is to shoot an evenly lit surface. If there is dirt/dust on the sensor, the lines will be visible throughout the length of the image. Betterlight recommends using Eclipse with Pec-Pads to clean the sensor if necessary. On the Phase One User Forum, there used to be a section for scanback users. You might want to take a look there. I have been using a Betterlight for over five years now, so there are at least five of us.

Kumar

Doug Goodin · « **Reply #12 on:** March 01, 2011, 08:56:07 am »

Yes, starting a scanback group would be a good idea!

Doug

kds315 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2011, 05:44:41 am »

I would be willing to chime in, as I have a Power Phase and also have quite some problems with vertical thin lines
appearing at random locations (but most and easily visible in dark areas) throughout the whole image. Here an
(amplified) example:
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/image/132967004/original.jpg

That was shot correctly exposed (in the green range of the exposition slider of the SW that came with it) using a 250Watts HMI
daylight lamp.

What I found while searching the net was (emphasis by me):

Vertical lines are due to certain CCD cells not responding properly, and that "bad spot" is moved down the page by the carriage motor, making streaks. The problem can be due to dust inside the scanner, on the CCD or mirrors, blocking light from reaching the CCD, and these tend to be dark lines (perhaps dark in only one of the RGB channels) and relatively few in number. The problem can be defective electronics in the scanner, and these lines often appear as red, green or blue lines (stuck on), and sometimes in great numbers or width.

ZOG · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2011, 08:45:49 pm »

Hello,

I worked for a lot of years with that model. Very reliable. What you see is most probably dust on the sensor. There is a mode in the software to clean the back. (I haven't used it in three years. Sorry I forgot exactly where is was...) When this mode is turned on, the sensor becomes visible. You can then clean it with any sensor cleaning fluid and tissue (Kimwipes).

Do it once and try your back. Never use the tissue twice or clean the sensor in two passes. If there is some dust left, do it again. By the quantity of dust that seems to be on the sensor, you may need to do it 3-4 times...

I hope it helps. Good luck.

Andre

kds315 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2011, 04:02:43 am »

Thanks Andre, I'll give it a try.

billthecat · « **Reply #16 on:** March 08, 2011, 01:02:45 am »

I've cleaned mine 4 times. The cleaning mode moves the sensor to the middle for cleaning, while it's usual resting spot is behind the metal plate.

Using a longer shutter speed has reduced the effect, but there are still lines. The seller has said that with him it went away. I'll try it again tonight. I tend to think it is not dirt as the seller claims no dirt and his last scan is perfect. After cleaning I don't see any change, but a change with shutter speed.

I've been using PacPads and Eclipse as well as a anti static scanner cleaner.

Bill

Kumar · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2011, 04:08:35 am »

Did you shoot an evenly lit surface like I suggested?

Kumar

billthecat · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2011, 04:36:10 am »

I didn't shoot an even surface, I shot a flower with sunlight in the morning. The lines haven't changed with any photo I have taken, but with a dark area you can't see them and it is less with the slow shutter speed. I'll take more photos soon, perhaps not tonight as I'm a bit behind.

Bill

billthecat · « **Reply #19 on:** March 12, 2011, 07:44:09 am »

Trying the camera at the slowest shutter speed the lines seem to be getting a bit better on their own, but they are still there. Anyway, I've given up and put the camera for sale. The seller wouldn't take the camera back saying that it was sold as is, but I wasn't told of the line problems when I bought it.

Here's my last full sized image, only rotated and saved as JPEG. A daylight florescent bulb is the main light, with room halogens. It's really bad lighting but all I had at the time. I assume that is the reason the color is so bad.
http://buaya.us/PhotoPhasePlusForSale/LastPhotoPhasePlus.jpg

Bill

Author Topic: PhotoPhase problem, lines on image (Read 8077 times)