Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video  (Read 21776 times)

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2010, 03:51:53 am »

All wrong in my bets! as expected.

Well, the picture that surprises me is the subject on the beach, this after the post prod is very "MF look" in all aspects.

The interesting thing is the why you choosed those cameras.

Is the Kikon AF more accurate than the Canon? It has this reputation. Never worked ever with a D700 or D3. I was actually thinking about that when I saw the pic and almost bet that it could have been a Nikon involved. Should have listened to my intuition.

On the last BW, I was wondering if the grain was post-produced or is it the P21 pushed at higher isos?

The bottom line is that at these resolutions on the web, it's almost imposible to bet on the right gear, but as you says, it's a matter of using this or that equipment to its strengh according to the situation.

Another question is that I see you are using reasonable resolution backs for the commercials, do you think that there is a limit with moving subjects? In other words, would you find any interest in using a P65 for example in the kind of imagery you are doing? (keeping acceptable workflow etc...)

Also, something else comes into my mind. You where saying that working with top imagery is, a part from a personal point of view, a sale argument. And it is. But I'm asking where is the limit where resolution does not mean anything more. My english is crap enough so I can't explain that concept properly, I try this way: A P65+ and above performances are sallable? (talking for commercial only with moving subjects)

And to end, your pictures also show something interesting: that when the all machinery works bloody right, the camera is just a "small" part in the chain and the differences are reduced. Good lightning, good models, good photographer, good PP...not pretend that gear does not matter but I think there is a moment when to a certain level, whatever gear involved, you'll have great pictures.
So, gear matters? yes it does. But more the photographer/team is good, less the differences are visible in the final result, so it is really a question of the "why" that matters, like using high sync speed etc...

Peter Lindberg uses also Hasselblad a part from his D3. Knowing how crazy is the animal in the shootings, he must have a good reason to take the Blad also when certain imagery is required.

Cheers.

Ps: I watched the Morgan's movie and this is great. This is what such a company need. IMO, not more, not less. I think the Dslr's video have a real role to play there.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 10:12:18 am by fredjeang »
Logged

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2010, 04:19:25 am »

snip

Well, the picture that surprises me is the subject on the beach, this after the post prod is very "MF look" in all aspects.

The interesting thing is the why you choosed those cameras.

snip


I know very little about the p65, but would like an exact full frame, though not at the expense of huge raw files, though they may be smaller than I think, I don't know.

I try to keep a project down to 500 gigs of raw files for our workflow, though that's not always possible.

As far as what I use and why.  I use the p21+ most of the time because it's fast, I like the look of the files and it has enough resolution for nearly everything I do.  I go to the p30+ when I need about a 1/2 stop more iso.  I use the Contax because I like it a lot and know it better than the back of my hand.

The Canons I use, I like to some extent, they are well built, semi fast.  The NIkons autofocus better than anything I've used, though for this shot I used the nIkon because I own a 200 f2 which was perfect for this image.

Now back to a p65, I just dunno, if I went that direction I'd probably want to put it on an H series blad and at that point I'd probably just buy a hdwhatever 40, though today I'm trying to find a RED with an MX sensor so I may hold on still cameras for a while.

The point I was trying to make of all this was it's not the equipment, but it is the equipment if that makes any sense.  Yes everything I showed could be shot with a 5d2 and maybe nobody would notice or care, but I would, so I shoot with what I want and I kind of have a rule about equipment.

I like professional equipment, and I use it until the paint falls off, then use it some more.  I must say with the Phase, regardless of the really awful lcd, V5 does make a pretty file, the tethering is good and the backs are solid so even if the paint falls off they'll probably still work.

The beach shot may look like mf, mostly because of studio style flash, but in post work on the top which required a lot do to the wind, you can see a difference between a canon image and a mf image and not just resolution, but look.  That was a perfect Leaf shutter lens image, I just didn't have a leaf shutter camera.  That may be next on my list after the RED.

Just a note.  I'm not saying what I use is right or wrong.  It's just right for me.

IMO.

BC
Logged

ondebanks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 858
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2010, 12:02:23 pm »


Look at these two very different projects and tell me if they can be shot on the cheap.  Well, maybe a portion of them, but not with the same results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5xCGZuvhWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twivg7GkYts&feature=related


The first one - sure it's stylish, but content wise, what a load of crap! Does it make me want to buy something from Louis Vuitton? No!! Because clothing does not matter in the slightest to this "journey" they're trying to sell me on. I find it hard to convey to you how much I detest this sort of pretentious verbal and visual twaddle in advertising. I can't believe that people actually fall for it. >:(


The second one - now that is brilliant. There is real intelligence, humour and honesty in the concept and execution. I would watch it again. I even forwarded it to my wife's email! - she'll wryly see the parallels... :)
Logged

ondebanks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 858
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2010, 12:12:45 pm »

BC, re. your 7 shots...very nice. I think I perceive a style here too - although these are shots of models, they never occupy more than 15% of the frame...the context is everything to you; and perhaps maintaining a distance between the model and the viewer is part of the 'story' too?
Logged

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2010, 01:22:36 pm »

I didn't link those two videos to praise or dismiss their value as a marketing vehicle.

I only posted them to show the artistic and technical level they achieved.  Once a artist/studio/production company  is awarded the commission and reviews the creative brief we are  required to reach a certain level.   The extra cost of a camera doesn't usually impact the budget and if it does, the budget was too small, or you make a decision to absorb the costs for your own personal gain.

My/our job is to execute and deliver imagery that "can" be purposed to any media, but once we've done this, it's up to the client and their customers to decide if the message works, where they run it.

I kind of live by the Johnny Dep rule of once I've done my job, where it goes from there is none of my business.   

Rarely am I called into the conference room on the 45th floor to discuss the merits of the campaign.  (Sometimes I wish I was, other times I'm glad I'm not).

Anyway, to keep this somewhat relevant I like the images that Morgan showed, they were honest and I am sure pleased his client.  Would a different camera in the same exact circumstance changed his images . . . probably not, though Morgan can better explain that than I.

What I do know is that broad strokes are the easiest thing "my" studio does.  It's the small bits of refinement that are difficult and the most costly.   

For every 10% we improve an image (moving or still) we up the effort 50%.  That's just the process.

What I also know is digital has changed the way we view the production effort.   I personally believe that good photography is difficult,  great photography requires divine intervention and though when we work our job is to make the client think it's easy . . . trust me it's difficult. 

Knowing this I think it's quite ok that professional cameras are more difficult to use and work than "prosumer" cameras and even if they only offer a 10% advantage, that added to the whole list of other 10%'s is what I am paid to achieve . . . is what makes a difference.

We routinely go on location or in studio with a grip truck full of equipment and many times have only used one camera, one lens and a soft foam-core for fill.   The truck isn't there to pad the costs, or add complexity just for show.  It's there to cover any circumstance and if you've done this job a while you'll learn that everyone has a plan until their punched in the mouth (Mike Tyson) and eventually no matter what you shoot the universe will eventually conspire to punch you in the mouth.

Years ago I beta tested for Epson and unknown to me they published my contact information.  I got a lot of calls and they all went something like this.

"My prints look yellow, red, green, too light, too dark, too mushy, too sharp, too something".  I'd say ok, let me ask you a question.  If you wanted to make a color C-print with a $14,000 enlarger and a $15,000 print processor how long do you think it would take to master this equipment?

The caller would answer, "I dunno, maybe a year or two".   I'd answer "right".    Now why do you think you should be able to make a superior print with a $599 printer on your very first try with only 15 minutes of learning, when it takes close to $30,000 and 2 years to do it in a wet darkroom?

They'd all say, "yea, but I want a better print".

So I feel the same way about $2,500 cameras.  They can do a great job, in fact an amazing job in the right hands, but it still takes a lot of effort to add that long list of 10%'s and it's those painful, costly, beat your head into the wall moments that give you those extra ten percents.

That's what moves your client's campaign and your own personal work forward.

And for everyone that professes that their less than expensive camera will do the same job, in stills and motion, I can promise you if they were awarded those two projects I linked to, a small hand held digital camera would not be on the equipment bid, at least for the main imagery.

I honestly believe (and this is no knock on anyone) that most people want things to be easy, but as my mother always said, (today is my day for paraphrasing), "if it was easy anyone could do it".   


IMO

BC

P.S.   I honestly don't buy into the notion that digital capture and presentation has made things easier.  In fact I can run along list of what it takes to shoot something analog and deliver it vs. the "EQUAL" quality and artistic level of what it takes to do it digitally and analog will probably win.

The thing is you can get an acceptable image digitally with less effort, or at least with immediate effort.  That's the only thing digital has changed, the thought that it's acceptable and it can be done faster, but to make some better in either digital or analog takes a lot of work.

I like work that takes a lot of work. 
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2010, 02:15:36 pm »

BC -  no kidding, but you have got to learn to take it easy. You can take yourself right into a heart attack a lot easier than you might imagine. I have the T-shirts.

Just remember Helmut Newton: after his, he did only what he wanted to do.

All those 10%s do add up, but not always as you expected.

Rob C

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2010, 02:31:51 pm »

Thanks to Morgan and BC for their visual aportations. It is very interesting, I also found the Morgan's pics more than honorable, fresh and responding to the client's universe as I saw their website. Very honest and that's good to see.

It's funny BC, I was talking recently to Rob about what you just said about film and I came to the same conclusion. I was using MF films a lot in fine arts but not to do pure photography, in fact I was using the photographs to paint on them with polyesther resin in curvy supports. (by the way, the resin does not affect the papers). But I had to print, sorry, develop, really big first on Ilford rolls so I'm pretty much aware of what a 3m print looked like, and I'm sorry to the film detractors but I still can't like the digital imagery at those sizes compared to what film can do. Maybe tomorrow. (and please no curves and Nasa calculations to demostrate that digital is way ahead film, I'd be very thankfull).

I think that James is right. More I see, more I think about it, more I think he's right. There is a moment where moving ahead means stop being easy. I can tell you that from a real experience. Being easy leads very easily to averageness at one point or another, and if not averageness, to feeling stucked and bored.

They are many risks that have to be taken, artistic and other kinds. Now that the snap and cheap culture is there, it is maybe even more important.

As I pointed in a different thread, I'm seeing truly amazing pros having tough time now. But it's fair to say that they do not move the machine further, they hardly chalenge themselves. Then some snappers are irrupting with cutted prices and "enough good" imagery and got the works.

It's about growing in all aspects.






« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 01:48:25 pm by fredjeang »
Logged

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2010, 02:37:52 pm »

BC -  no kidding, but you have got to learn to

Whoa.   I'm not near as serious as you think.  

Either you misread me or I miscommunicated.

In fact I have a lot of fun working, like the people I work with 99% of the people I work for, so I have a good life.

Heck I work with my wife, travel with my dog and get to experience the world on a level that few jobs allow.

I do find what I do important to me.  Going forward, not backwards is important to me.  Just me.

That's all I'm talkin' bout'.



BC
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2010, 04:16:46 pm »

Whoa.   I'm not near as serious as you think.  

Either you misread me or I miscommunicated.

In fact I have a lot of fun working, like the people I work with 99% of the people I work for, so I have a good life.

Heck I work with my wife, travel with my dog and get to experience the world on a level that few jobs allow.

I do find what I do important to me.  Going forward, not backwards is important to me.  Just me.

That's all I'm talkin' bout'.

BC


No, no miscommunicaton, just that I worked with my wife too, which can be a huge plus, enjoyed my work very much as well - hell, it was my life (I thought), but the stress that goes on with the non-photographic stuff mounts up, however well you thought you'd coped. Fact is, you can never spot which friggin' straw is the last one. Maybe it's also age-related, but I'm convinced it's something that developes over a lifetime; yet it all adds up to that bottom line - the flat one.

Wish you well, regardless!

Rob C 

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2010, 04:23:45 pm »

I strongly recommend yoga (not kidding), or tai chi.

You think you are healphy? watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX8mGt0K_JI
Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2010, 08:16:17 pm »

Thanks people for not knocking my lowball pics too much - I love the work of The Cooter

How does the camera affect the process

Ill say it again nikon D3, 50 1.4 - nothing else, I dont even have a strap

I spent from 2005-8 with H1, Elly Ranger, Q Flashes, softboxes, tripod, size of the eifell tower, person to stop the softbox blowing away in the wind to get the same style of images

Shooting  with the D3 reminds me of shooting in 1989 with a F3 and roll of Tri-X, speed agaility, freedom, spontenaity

I love my hassy and flash in the sun and also if you 'peep' the images the files are beyond the D3, but to my the D3 is good enough 90% of the time and 100% solid 200k frames in

My original point is that when I got the Hassy the nikons were not even full frame and about 4mp - unusable crap for anything but newsprint

it was film or hassy end of story

now (back to motion) you could say it is film or Red/Arri because the Canikons can produce unusable crap (for anythingk but todays 'newsprint' - the web)

So motion wise we are in the same place that we were stills wise in 2004/5

Redusers are like the RG/LuLa users who made digital work for stills in 2005, bleeding edgers

I hope the same move forward happens with motion - canikon get something 'D3 good' out for motion

and it will affect the process - no grip truck required for simple stuff like I do, you can still use on if you want one to build something of the nature of the performance art that is the work of The Cooter

S



« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 08:30:47 pm by Morgan_Moore »
Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Erick Boileau

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 251
    • http://
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2010, 01:44:10 am »

Who cares about real video? WE WANT LIVEVIEW WITH A DECENT SCREEN.

Edmund
+10000000000000
and decent real-life batteries and screen

I shall never buy again  a MF without it
Logged

Erick Boileau

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 251
    • http://
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2010, 01:49:39 am »

99% of the video being produced today is a fad. 
same thing for photography
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2010, 10:10:01 am »


Shooting  with the D3 reminds me of shooting in 1989 with a F3 and roll of Tri-X, speed agaility, freedom, spontenaity






Which is why I still own film Nikon as well as the D200 and D700; simplicity and freedom count for so much. Having said which, the curse of sensor/dust games has introduced a new personal problem: I only change lenses indoors which means I leave home armed with whichever lens I fitted. Period. Some say that concentrates the mind; I find it changes the mind as soon as you get to where you were going. But, were I still working, I suppose I'd accept the inside of the car as a suitable changing room. Or buy a second D700.

Rob C

fredjeang

  • Guest
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2010, 11:39:17 am »

Logged

Morgan_Moore

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2356
    • sammorganmoore.com
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2010, 12:36:07 pm »

seems like a very sensible camera

wont shoot stills

most 35mm lenses wont be too appropriate

worth a think if you are 'kitting up for motion' imo

I wont dream of one, but if I get more vid business may find I need one

Logged
Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2010, 01:55:14 pm »

Wow, Rob, that must be incredibly limiting.

Did you only change film indoors or in a car?



Certainly is limiting, Keith, and no, with film I even changed films right out there in the sand; just turned my face into the ever-present wind and the open camera was pointing safely downwind.

The problem is the fear of getting dust onto the sensor. So far, and please, NOT tempting you, Fate, I have never had to clean a sensor in either camera. Yes, the D700 has a self-cleaner device, but it isn't even activated and I have met with no problem.

But you know the reality: I'm just playing with photography now. Were I still working, I would have bought more bodies and probably not into the D700 level but up and awaywards at that. It's just a different ballgame for me now, and there are no prizes awaiting in exchange for the risk and bother of muck invading the machine.

On another tack: I've spent most of today scanning... I am working on a new gallery of sea-related stuff, and I think it has convinced me that film isn't going to make a huge comeback in my life; I also looked at film prices and laughed out loud. Add the disappearing act that my local E6 folks pulled, and the temptation recedes by the minute. But, still, a nice M... of either kind, dammit!

;-)

Rob C

Dennis Carbo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2010, 02:06:48 pm »

Hi Rob,

I switch lenses on my Nikon Bodies many times a day in a variety of environments and occasionally I need to clean my sensors .  I have the Delkin Sensor Scope and cleaning kit, nothing to fear...does a great job and I have never damaged a sensor...it is really very easy and only takes a few minutes.  Check out the kit..it will be liberating  ;D

Regards,

Dennis
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2010, 03:06:07 pm »

Hi Rob,

I switch lenses on my Nikon Bodies many times a day in a variety of environments and occasionally I need to clean my sensors .  I have the Delkin Sensor Scope and cleaning kit, nothing to fear...does a great job and I have never damaged a sensor...it is really very easy and only takes a few minutes.  Check out the kit..it will be liberating  ;D

Regards,

Dennis


But Dennis, I have this memory - very recent and going back forever - of cleaning lens filters... Even that's almost impossible to achieve, and that's not something sitting right up close and personal to the film, as it were, and marks don't tend to record. I guess that it may depend where you work: my stuff is now almost always outdoors, and here we have a lot of wind and sand and all-pervasive salt. Where I park, about a kilometre from the sea, each time the wind is blowing our way the car is coated. In fact, it is so bad that as I always park in the same slot/direction, the side exposed to the prevailing sea wind is the only one with corrosion, as in real rust and ruined paintwork. Salt air kills everything. Ask any boat owner!

But, in the event that something does find my virgin sensors (down, boys, not for sale) I shall make a note now of your advice, for which, thanks!

Rob C

Dennis Carbo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2010, 03:25:22 pm »

Hi Rob,

Yeah point taken...I live on the Shoreline so I feel your pain....How about using a changing bag like we used for 4 x 5 film holders ? That would provide some protection from debris and sand. Good Luck ! 
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up