SD1 Digital SLR Camera 46Mp 1.5x crop Foveon X3 sensor (4800 x 3200 x 3 layers)

[Bernard ODonovan]

Foveon sensor making new progress again, very interesting given the info each pixel provides !

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1009/10092129sigmasd1.asp

[DaveL]

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/mark_dubovoys_photokina_blog.shtml



DaveL

[Bernard ODonovan]

Some views of it in hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeCDdm7X9T4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIFrQUCJitI

So not finalised yet. No mention of RAW depth, they appear to be 12 bit on previous Sigma's. Could get Video.

[LKaven]

In a full frame format, this Foveon sensor design would put out over 100M derived pixels with current technology.  I'd like to see that!  Sigma should make and show off a prototype.

[DarkPenguin]

In a full frame format, this Foveon sensor design would put out over 100M derived pixels with current technology.  I'd like to see that!  Sigma should make and show off a prototype.

Any signs that it has accurate colors?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Any signs that it has accurate colors?

It looks like the same technology is being used (color channel separation by silicon penetration depth), so reconstructing the colors remains problematic. Software has to work with whatever the hardware delivers, and we know that the saturation of the channels needs a significant bump. It should be able to deliver good monochromatic results though, if the Rawconverter can bypass some of the color boosting steps.

Compared to the SD15, the sensel pitch has been reduced from 7.84 micron down to 5 micron, 41% of the potential area in square microns. That won't help the photon statistics, high ISO will probably remain an issue. The smaller sensel pitch will reduce the aliasing tendency a bit, but dynamic range may be stressed by the reduced well capacity.

So we'll still have to wait for some real images and see.

Cheers,
Bart

[NikoJorj]

It looks like the same technology is being used (color channel separation by silicon penetration depth), so reconstructing the colors remains problematic.

I couldn't agree more ; in particular, some weird (apparently random from my very limited tests with DP1 raws) color shifts in the shadows were problematic with the previous versions.

That said, it wouldn't be fair to dismiss any potential progress with the technology! Who would have thought back in 2000 that diminishing the pixel pitch of (Bayer ) CMOS sensors would yield such an IQ?

So we'll still have to wait for some real images and see.

And particularly, real raw files.

[DarkPenguin]

Actually color is a known weakness of the foveon sensor.  Joseph Wisniewski has some nice posts on the subject in the DPReview forum.

Resolution is the foveon's strength.  Particularly this camera.

[feppe]

Actually color is a known weakness of the foveon sensor.  Joseph Wisniewski has some nice posts on the subject in the DPReview forum.

What do you mean color is a weakness? If you mean accuracy, Velvia nor Kodachrome are accurate yet they defined generations of photography.

[DarkPenguin]

What do you mean color is a weakness? If you mean accuracy, Velvia nor Kodachrome are accurate yet they defined generations of photography.

Okay.

[DarkPenguin]

Yes and no IMO. Color in the "confort zone" is not a problem, pretty much exceptional I would say, except in some shadows generally indoor, but that can be recuperate easily in PP.
Resolution is and has never been the strengh of the Foveon. Michael Reichmann's articles about came to a similar conclusion: it is not 3 times but more 2 times the Sigma claims. You can extract the full potential, true, but to a post-prod manipulation AND with the proper equipment, wich meand time and skills are required.
This fact has been discusted and demostrate many times in the Sigma users forums and there is a clear consensus about that since the SD14 and DP1. My personal experience with both cameras tells me the same.
I'm surprised to hear that about the Foveon resolution. If I have time I'll read the Wisniewski's articles to see what he means.

It seems like 2x the resolution of bayer at the same number of pixels would be a strength.  Not being able to get as many pixels on there (until now) would be a weakness.

[feppe]

Okay.

Now I get your sig...

[DarkPenguin]

Now I get your sig...

It took you that long?  You ask me a question, predicted the response and responded to that.  What response were you expecting from me?

BTW, just ran across this comment from Eric Fossum on foveon...

"Indeed, the spectral response of the silicon 3-layer structure is fundamentally different from the human eye's response. It is only thru massive computing that the color comes out as well as it does. To me the color quality of the Foveon-type sensor is right there with a 747 leaving the ground in terms of technical amazement. "  (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=36411196)

Edit: Fossum quote added because I find it funny.  Not as a comment on the quality of the foveon colors.  It does suggest Fred is right that one wants to stay within the foveon's comfort zone.

[NikoJorj]

Resolution is and has never been the strengh of the Foveon.

It's more a question of acutance imho, so proper sharpening could level a bit that ground.

That said, there is some luminance Moiré doing a really nice trick to disguise itself into very fine random detail, too.
IMHO, it may be a real strength, until you enlarge too much and end enlarging those artifacts.

[Bernard ODonovan]

http://dpreview.com/news/1010/10100504Sigmainterview.asp

Interesting exchange.

Confirmation no video for the SD1

This could be a good one...

[Quentin]

I will buy an SD1 if its imager performance is in the same bracket as my DP1, or better.  I always found the pixel level appearance of shots with the DP1 to be superior to virtually anything else, it just lacked for ultimate resolution, and around 30mp bayer equivalence would make it a compelling choice.  It won't replace my H4D-50, of course, but it may give my Sony A900 a run for its money. 

Quentin

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I will buy an SD1 if its imager performance is in the same bracket as my DP1, or better.  I always found the pixel level appearance of shots with the DP1 to be superior to virtually anything else, it just lacked for ultimate resolution, and around 30mp bayer equivalence would make it a compelling choice.  It won't replace my H4D-50, of course, but it may give my Sony A900 a run for its money.

Have you tried downsampling your A900 6048 x 4032 pixel images down to 4800 × 3200 with the Nearest Neighbor resampling method in Photoshop? That should give a reasonable impression of what can be expected.

Nearest Neighbor downsampling + sharpening will produce a similar 'crispness' compared to a sensor array without AA-filter. You can verify that by downsampling to  2640 x 1760 pixels and comparing to your DP1 images. It will also reduce the need to invest in new lenses.

Images with a given number of RGB pixels will not magically have a higher resolution of similar to an image with a larger number of pixels. The number of RGB pixels determines the resolution. What can be different is the MTF response at the limiting resolution, but with it comes the tendency for aliasing artifacts.

Cheers,
Bart

[BobDavid]

Have you tried downsampling your A900 6048 x 4032 pixel images down to 4800 × 3200 with the Nearest Neighbor resampling method in Photoshop? That should give a reasonable impression of what can be expected.

Nearest Neighbor downsampling + sharpening will produce a similar 'crispness' compared to a sensor array without AA-filter. You can verify that by downsampling to  2640 x 1760 pixels and comparing to your DP1 images. It will also reduce the need to invest in new lenses.

Images with a given number of RGB pixels will not magically have a higher resolution of similar to an image with a larger number of pixels. The number of RGB pixels determines the resolution. What can be different is the MTF response at the limiting resolution, but with it comes the tendency for aliasing artifacts.

Cheers,
Bart

I just downsized my a850 as per your suggestion. I'm sorry, I fail to see any benefit at all. I think, as my friends Click and Clack would say, "BOGGUUSS."

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I just downsized my a850 as per your suggestion. I'm sorry, I fail to see any benefit at all.

Hi Bob,

I didn't say it would be a benefit, but it should create a similar crispness. Care to show us a side by side example of a downsampled/sharpened shot versus a DP1, an interesting crop with detail would do?

Cheers,
Bart

[deejjjaaaa]

Hi Bob,

I didn't say it would be a benefit, but it should create a similar crispness. Care to show us a side by side example of a downsampled/sharpened shot versus a DP1, an interesting crop with detail would do?

Cheers,
Bart

you can do that yourself

.X3F raw files for DP1 are available @ http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DP1/DP1THMB.HTM

similar () scenes (raw files) from 24mp FF cameras are available on the same website.

not bad for 4.6mp sensor

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6069/dp1hsli100.jpg

now imagine that you will be dealing with 15.4mp one.