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Ed Jack

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« on: February 22, 2010, 02:28:50 pm »

Here is one of the more pertinent documents:

http://www.roundshot.ch/documents/Seitz_Ro..._price_list.pdf

I have no idea how practical these things are, but surely they are a step up from better light etc for in the field use ?

Still 14.000 Euro, but the D3 2500 back is plenty enough resolution for most people and I believe is the same size chip as its Uber brother, so for landscape is a 6X17 digital option - of sorts.
Also I believe that if you buy the Seitz platform and lens and portable option at the same time (which I imagine you would), you can get a massive discount on the package with the dealers.

Ed

I welcome any roundshot user comments, I am a bit of novice in this area I am more of a MFDB man!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 02:33:31 pm by Ed Jack »
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 04:59:55 pm »

I was hoping that they had at last started shipping the 617 back for view cameras like the Sinar P2.
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Ed Jack

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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 03:01:34 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I was hoping that they had at last started shipping the 617 back for view cameras like the Sinar P2.

 As for why the Dalsa back is restricted to the Seitz product I can not say. I mean I think it might be hardware limmited, as in the back requires certain connections and functions from the specific Seitz camera, but am not sure.

It's a shame Better-light don't have access to these Dalsa sensors, as they have a good track record of supporting open platforms - as in selling standalone backs.

This thread has not garnered much interest. IS it because the Seitz product isn't really that portable - although it no worse than any other LF set-up ?! Maybe it is because the D3 was so expensive (although less than a high end DB I think). I have urged them to send Michael a demo version of the new back since it it postentially more appealing being over 40% less the cost of the D3, whillst only 18MP, it is 16bit "true colour" works fairly noiselessly at iso 800 and covers the 6X17 imaging area in 1 second, not to mention optimisation for lens movements.

Clearly not much interest here... I wonder who is using these products if not Landscape artists.. architecture ?
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 07:11:14 am »

I was hoping that they had at last started shipping the 617 back for view cameras like the Sinar P2.

Quote from: Ed Jack
As for why the Dalsa back is restricted to the Seitz product I can not say. I mean I think it might be hardware limmited, as in the back requires certain connections and functions from the specific Seitz camera, but am not sure.

This thread has not garnered much interest. IS it because the Seitz product isn't really that portable - although it no worse than any other LF set-up ?! Maybe it is because the D3 was so expensive (although less than a high end DB I think). I have urged them to send Michael a demo version of the new back since it it postentially more appealing being over 40% less the cost of the D3, whillst only 18MP, it is 16bit "true colour" works fairly noiselessly at iso 800 and covers the 6X17 imaging area in 1 second, not to mention optimisation for lens movements.

Clearly not much interest here... I wonder who is using these products if not Landscape artists.. architecture ?
It is Seitz who were working on the 617 back for proper view cameras, and I was thinking about buying one... I would not be interested in a 617 without a full range of movements.

A 60Mpx back and a triple-stitch motorised sliding back would do a similar job, so I am now unlikely to buy a Seitz.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2010, 02:16:17 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
A 60Mpx back and a triple-stitch motorised sliding back would do a similar job, so I am now unlikely to buy a Seitz.

Or you could also stitch with a high end DSLR and get better results much cheaper and without having to stick to panoramic aspect ratios...

A recent 160 megapixels image.



Cheers,
Bernard

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2010, 06:05:19 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Or you could also stitch with a high end DSLR and get better results much cheaper and without having to stick to panoramic aspect ratios...

Cheers,
Bernard
Hi, Bernard.

The H4D-60 is a high-end DSLR, and, when I am short of FOV or want a cylinder panorama, I will pan and stitch with it.

A view-camera and a sliding back are cost-effective for landscapes if you already have a digiback.

With multi-row shift and stitch I hope to be able to get 250Mpx square pictures, using a Sinar P3.

If you want high-res landscapes and you do not have the ideal kit to do it, then pan-and-stitch is a cost-effective option, and light for back-packing.

I know that pan-and-stitch works for you... but what make you think that a pan-and-stitch rectilinear image could be better than an undistorted shift-and-stitch image? even if you use a high-res AA-free digiback? ...I think that the fall off in res towards the edge of an apo-digitar would not be as bad as the results of the distortion needed to rectilinearise the perspective.

For back-packing I think I would leave my 2Kg zoom behind, and take a Sinar F3 and apo-digitars.

I think that there is not enough detail in your picture above to warrant using anything higher-res than an H4D-60 (single-shopt), if you had one... I try to use enough res to capture the detail in the scene in front of me.

An H4D-60 would be expensive, but the total time to take and process the shot might be one tenth the time you would take to pan-and-stitch.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 06:12:55 am by Dick Roadnight »
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aaron

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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 08:08:46 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
For back-packing I think I would leave my 2Kg zoom behind, and take a Sinar F3 and apo-digitars.

I think those 'small' Sinar monorails weigh over 5KG without any attachments  . Wouldnt be going in my back pack!
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 08:43:01 am »


Dick,

My comments were mostly about cylindrical stitching vs the Roundshot. It is a lot less clearcut when considering a high res single shot back.

Still, some answers below on that part.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
With multi-row shift and stitch I hope to be able to get 250Mpx square pictures, using a Sinar P3.

I would be genuinely interested in seeing full res images produced by your system. I could be wrong, but my assumption is that:

1. Cristical focus will be very hard to achieve,
2. Perfect plan sliding of the back will be very challenging also.

Anders was supposed to be trying to achieve that kind of thing but we have never seen any results. Still don't know if he managed to make it work on a regular basis or not.

Per my experince cylindrical pano is actual somewhat faster. There is no concern about accurate positioning, just a simple rotation that does not affect the relationship between lens and sensor.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
If you want high-res landscapes and you do not have the ideal kit to do it, then pan-and-stitch is a cost-effective option, and light for back-packing.

I know that pan-and-stitch works for you... but what make you think that a pan-and-stitch rectilinear image could be better than an undistorted shift-and-stitch image? even if you use a high-res AA-free digiback? ...I think that the fall off in res towards the edge of an apo-digitar would not be as bad as the results of the distortion needed to rectilinearise the perspective.

Well, you basically always use the center section of you lens when you cylindrical stitch. With correctly positioned lenses, the process of projection removes extremely little image quality, I would say less than 5%. I have never used a Digitar, but judging from the difference of sharpness between center and edge on my Schneider 110mm XL, one of the best wide 4x5 lenses produced, I would be very surprised if the corners of the digitars after sliding of your back were even close. Again I would love to see full size samples. I can provide you any time with a full size version of any of the stitched images I produce. Image uniformity is simply perfect all the time.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I think that there is not enough detail in your picture above to warrant using anything higher-res than an H4D-60 (single-shopt), if you had one... I try to use enough res to capture the detail in the scene in front of me.

An H4D-60 would be expensive, but the total time to take and process the shot might be one tenth the time you would take to pan-and-stitch.

I believe that capture will be about the same, post processing is indeed longer with cylindrical stitching, but it is mostly CPU time. nowadays I hardly ever spend time re-touching my panos, software does it perfect fully automatically 75% of the time, the rest of the cases typcally require only very limited manual work.

Anyway, again, I was mostly reacting to the Roundshot proposition.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ed Jack

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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 09:58:03 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Anyway, again, I was mostly reacting to the Roundshot proposition.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well maybe, but maybe I didn't make it clear that I was refering to the 1 second full frame 6X17 format Dalsa Scanning back that has been developed to a high level by this company, not the roundshot, which is a bit of a Faff by any measure.

There is no roundshot proposition in this thread, I am suprised you of all people are not more intrigued by the other Seitz product!?

The 18MP back has all the properties of its more expensive predecessor (the D3), except a lower resolution and a price of only 11000 Euro, less than most MF digital backs out there.

I seem to recall one of the forum members demoing this back and posting an article on this site ?
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 05:25:44 pm »

Quote from: Ed Jack
Well maybe, but maybe I didn't make it clear that I was refering to the 1 second full frame 6X17 format Dalsa Scanning back that has been developed to a high level by this company, not the roundshot, which is a bit of a Faff by any measure.

There is no roundshot proposition in this thread, I am suprised you of all people are not more intrigued by the other Seitz product!?

The 18MP back has all the properties of its more expensive predecessor (the D3), except a lower resolution and a price of only 11000 Euro, less than most MF digital backs out there.

I seem to recall one of the forum members demoing this back and posting an article on this site ?

Yep, understood, I should have written Seitz instead of roundshot, sorry about that.

My personnal lack of interest results from the previous review of the camera here. The quality of what was shown then was, frankly speaking, poor.

I was interested in the initial D3 but always had serious doubts about:

- how bulky it was for actual outdoor usage,
- the very high price,
- the battery life in the cold,
- the RGB artifacts issues with these scanning backs when subjects moves (very different issue than those with stitching by the way)

All in all, it appeared to be an extremely risky investemeny that reminded me of my Kodak SLR/n and Mamiya ZD... very appealing in some ways, but too flawed to be practical in the field.

Cheers,
Bernard

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2010, 07:28:52 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Dick,
My comments were mostly about cylindrical stitching vs the Roundshot. It is a lot less clearcut when considering a high res single shot back.
...and the rest of us are talking about rectilinear.
Quote
I would be genuinely interested in seeing full res images produced by your system. I could be wrong, but my assumption is that:

1. Cristical focus will be very hard to achieve,
2. Perfect plan sliding of the back will be very challenging also.
Most of the equipment is not on the market yet (so I have not used it, and cannot send you any samples) - I hope to get the H4D-60 next month, and Kapture Group are working on the triple or hex stitch sliding back.

You need quality (yes heavy) e.g. Sinar kit to do this. Focus is always critical with very short lenses, but live view helps.
Quote
Per my experince cylindrical pano is actual somewhat faster.
Faster that what? ...are you saying that, in your experience, pano is faster that something of which you have no experience? ... like motorised automatic sliding backs?

I said that taking a picture of the house in your picture above with a single exposure with an H3D-60 might take one tenth of the time it took you to produce a 160Mpx picture, and still capture all the detail in that particular image.
Quote
There is no concern about accurate positioning, just a simple rotation that does not affect the relationship between lens and sensor.
... but, for best results, you have to accurately position the nodal point of the lens in the axis of rotation?
Quote
Well, you basically always use the center section of your lens when you cylindrical stitch. With correctly positioned lenses, the process of projection removes extremely little image quality, I would say less than 5%.
If you use a low-res DSLR with an anti-aliasing filter, you do not have much image quality to lose, and you do not miss what you never had, but any digital projection stretches pixels and wastes rez... I always try to print dot for dot, without scaling, which you can do with a 24 inch Epson and a 60 Mpx back.
Quote
I have never used a Digitar, but judging from the difference of sharpness between center and edge on my Schneider 110mm XL, one of the best wide 4x5 lenses produced, I would be very surprised if the corners of the digitars after sliding of your back were even close.
close to what? close to the quality of a film lens??? or close to their centre res? ...see the MTF charts. LF film lenses generally, I think, have about half the res of apo-digitars, so a 10 micron digiback would be ideal for stitching with LF film lenses. Most of the current wade-andgle apo-digitars (with the exception of the 47) do not have useful image circles, but there some in the pipeline.
Quote
Again I would love to see full size samples. I can provide you any time with a full size version of any of the stitched images I produce. Image uniformity is simply perfect all the time.
I would appreciate that - I have often thought that pictures that look good on a monitor would not necessarily look good printed five feet by four.
Quote
I believe that capture will be about the same,
I said that taking a picture of the house in your picture above with a single exposure with an H3D-60 might take one tenth of the time it took you to produce a 160Mpx picture, and still capture all the detail in that particular image.

Taking 3 * 60Mpx exposures less overlap ¿160MPx? would, I would have thought take, no longer than taking three pix with a 24 Mpx DSLR for cylinder stitching... but pano-cylinder stitching three 24 Mpx pix would ¿surely? give you less res than a single picture taken with an H4D-60  
Quote
...post processing is indeed longer with cylindrical stitching, but it is mostly CPU time. nowadays I hardly ever spend time re-touching my panos, software does it perfect fully automatically 75% of the time, the rest of the cases typcally require only very limited manual work.

Anyway, again, I was mostly reacting to the Roundshot proposition.

Cheers,
Bernard

I appreciate that what I am saying is theoretical, and you can demonstrate that you technique works.

Dick
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 08:05:02 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I said that taking a picture of the house in your picture above with a single exposure with an H3D-60 might take one tenth of the time it took you to produce a 160Mpx picture, and still capture all the detail in that particular image.

With all due respect, how would you know? This image is full of details, beautiful texture just about anywhere. 1 gigapixel would reveal more details than 500 megapixels for sure.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
... but, for best results, you have to accurately position the nodal point of the lens in the axis of rotation?

Yes, of course.

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
I would appreciate that - I have often thought that pictures that look good on a monitor would not necessarily look good printed five feet by four.

I said that taking a picture of the house in your picture above with a single exposure with an H3D-60 might take one tenth of the time it took you to produce a 160Mpx picture, and still capture all the detail in that particular image.

Again, how do you know?

I'll post a bit later some 100% extract from the center and corners of the image. I trust on your objective comments.

Cheers,
Bernard

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2010, 09:19:34 am »

I said that taking a picture of the house in your picture above with a single exposure with an H3D-60 might take one tenth of the time it took you to produce a 160Mpx picture, and still capture all the detail in that particular image.

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
With all due respect, how would you know? This image is full of details, beautiful texture just about anywhere. 1 gigapixel would reveal more details than 500 megapixels for sure.
Cheers,
Bernard
This poses the question
¿How much res is enough?

In a picture of a leaf (or a close-up of part of a leaf), you might look for individual cells.

In a picture of a tree, I like to see individual leaves, or, at least, the texture of the leaves.

In a distant forest in the background of a picture, I like to see individual trees.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/up...-1244495167.jpg
I my 50Mpx picture of Port Isaac you can see perhaps a hundred houses, and you can just about see the texture of the tiles and bricks on houses 500m away...
I look forward to re-taking the picture with a sliding stitching back for increased res and the ability to use movements to get the foreground and background in focus.

On stone buildings I like to see the texture of each stone, and the texture of any moss etc.

Looking at a picture of a village, after appreciating the overall picture, the viewer might then move closer and look at individual buildings, or people... and it would be nice to be able to see every hair on every head...

There is, of course fine texture in snow and grass and wood, and I like to see it, so that snow does not look like icing sugar...

And if I took a picture of the house in your picture above, and I could see the texture of the snow, the wood and the rust... I would not feel the need to re-take it to resolve more detail.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 09:47:28 am by Dick Roadnight »
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