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Author Topic: Help choosing MFDB  (Read 11976 times)

arashm

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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2009, 11:12:55 pm »

[quote name='dougpetersonci' date='Dec 11 2009, 11:57 PM' post='332075']

The maximum exposure time for all digital backs is measured at base ISO. At higher ISO the maximum exposure actually decreases. Most backs are rated at 30 seconds or 60 seconds, but only at base ISO (usually 25 or 50). The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are the only backs (which can be used on a view camera) that can go beyond that (the 45 non plus can go for "several minutes", the + backs can go for around an hour at normal temperatures or several hours at colder temperatures.


[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson

Doug:
I was told that the P21+ can not work on a technical or view camera at all.
you seem to think that this is possible.
I'm not looking for huge movements, just maybe 3-5mm of rise at times, is this possible with this back?
I noticed you listed the P21+ but not the P30+
What about the Microlenses? is there a problem with colour shift?
Thank you in Advance.
am
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Dustbak

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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2009, 05:13:54 am »

Quote from: Nick_T
As for long exposures I did talk to a chap once who had been testing firmware on his CF39 that let him shoot up to 30 minutes but not sure when we'll see that.... Certainly don't buy any piece of kit based on what might be coming but rather on what works for you now.

Nick-T

I have been talking to a similar guy that did the same thing and seen the resulting images as well which looked great. I sure hope this firmware will materialize eventually.... I agree, do not buy anything based on promised features in the future. I have heard these things for years and invariably they are either unbelievably late or never arrive.
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tho_mas

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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2009, 05:45:40 am »

Quote from: arashm
I was told that the P21+ can not work on a technical or view camera at all.
you seem to think that this is possible.
I'm not looking for huge movements, just maybe 3-5mm of rise at times, is this possible with this back?
I noticed you listed the P21+ but not the P30+
What about the Microlenses? is there a problem with colour shift?
you can use the P21+ on a view camera... but limited.
The longer the lenses the better they work with the P21+.
With the Digitar 47XL color cast is not a problem. But light falloff is heavy at large movements due to the microlenses. However 3-5mm rise is fine.
I think a 35mm is too wide for the P21+ but am not quite sure.

@Nick: the HTS might work okay as the rear lens is not really close to the sensor. On a view camera the lens is very close to the sensor...

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arashm

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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2009, 11:45:02 am »

Quote from: tho_mas
you can use the P21+ on a view camera... but limited.
The longer the lenses the better they work with the P21+.
With the Digitar 47XL color cast is not a problem. But light falloff is heavy at large movements due to the microlenses. However 3-5mm rise is fine.
I think a 35mm is too wide for the P21+ but am not quite sure.

@Nick: the HTS might work okay as the rear lens is not really close to the sensor. On a view camera the lens is very close to the sensor...

Thomas
Thank you for the response
I'm actually very fund of the P21+
it's the prefect size for doing lookbooks and the sort.
do you think it's possible to use it on a technical camera with a 28HR with no movements ?
thanks again
am
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tho_mas

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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2009, 11:55:33 am »

Quote from: arashm
do you think it's possible to use it on a technical camera with a 28HR with no movements
I don't know, I'm sorry. Somewhere I've read something about the P21+ and wide angles and it was put about that with very wide angles it is not really usable. Unfortunately I don't remember the article / contribution. My P21+ and 47XL work very fine... within moderate movements (with large movements it's not just light falloff... we are actually talking about almost black corners in a range where the P45 shows a falloff of around 1.5 stops).
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2009, 12:05:40 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
If you want a digital back that can do ISO100 at 1 minute and works on a view camera than you have exactly four options: P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45.

No other digital backs will do that. Every back from Hassy, Leaf, and Sinar, and any other back from Phase either wont' work on a view camera (because they use strong microlenses) or can't handle that length of exposure.

I do not want to speak for Doug, but I am sure he meant to write 1 HOUR with this list, not 1 minute


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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2009, 05:12:17 pm »

Quote from: Bill Lawrence
I'm considering a MFDB to put on the back of a 2x3 or 4x5 view camera, and looking for a used back in the 39MP range.  I don't use film above 100 ISO in the view camera, so don't really need hi ISO capacity, but would like to be able to be able to do exposures at 100 ISO for up to about a minute for low light situations.  Big sensor area is a plus, but it looks like the only thing bigger than these two is the P65+, which is out of my price range.  Low noise at 100 ISO is important, as is good color and tonal representation.

Bill,

At what aperture are you working so as to need 1 min exposure?

Cheers,
Bernard

Wayne Fox

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« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2009, 09:17:15 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
I do not want to speak for Doug, but I am sure he meant to write 1 HOUR with this list, not 1 minute


I would assume that as well.  1 minute on a p45+ is nothing ... I've done 8-12 minute exposures frequently.  I think the 1 hour limit is correct.

p65+ no ... 1 minute is it.
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Bill Lawrence

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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2009, 09:55:10 pm »

[indent][/indent]
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Bill,

At what aperture are you working so as to need 1 min exposure?

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,
I was trying to determine what the range of my usual shooting was with my 4x5.  Night shots are a small pecentage of my shots, but I'll frequently do f22 for a couple of minutes when I do it.  Worse comes to worse, I can drag along some Provia with me, which ha never been a problem for me with reciprocity, but i was trying to find a back that could at least come close to covering some of these shots.  If there are compelling reasons to go for different backs, I could dump this criterion, but if all else is equal, the ability for at least moderately long exposures is helpful.

Cheers!
Bill
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asf

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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2009, 10:17:11 pm »

If you're thinking of putting a digital back on your canham with anything wider than a 90 you should really check how aligned your front and rear standards are, or how aligned you can regularly and repeatedly get them to be.

The canham is not a good camera for a digital back - there's a lot of play and the bellows push the standards away from each other when compressed.
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RichA@FotoCare

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« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2009, 09:06:47 am »

Hi Steve, thanks for your post.

Hi Bill,
My recommendation is to test first hand as much as your local dealer will allow.  You should try to test everything in your budget and see first hand pro's and con's of every system.  Currently we have Hasselblad, Leaf, & Sinar for MF Digital Backs and might have Phase in rental and maybe for sales in the new year.  We shall see what's best for us and our partners.  Currently there is only one system that shoots longer than 64 sec exposure and that is Phase.  With each exposure you have an equally as long calibration exposure.  In my opinion the larger, better screen on some of the H3D backs offsets the use of the Image Bank as a power supply and storage unit on location when shooting to a view camera.  You're carrying a tripod, head, and view camera so what's the big deal of having a small FW drive unit & battery?  The CFV-39 is at a great price point and worth testing.  It does work with an external battery & CF card, to the Image bank, and to a computer.  Hasselblad Phocus 2.0 software and camera firmware has just been released and is FREE of charge.  It's your money, test, test, test.....

Best,
Rich Andres
Foto Care
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Ed Jack

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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2009, 11:41:13 am »

Quote from: Bill Lawrence
Thanks for all the replies!  It sounds like the P45 may be the way to go, although if necessary I can deal with more limitations on the long exposures.   The Phase One specs say "couple of minutes" or some such on the P45, but wasn't sure if this was realistic to expect on either of the backs.  Much of my work would be max a few seconds, and for my night time work if worse comes to worse I can switch to the 5D and cope (or back to Provia and cope), but I couldn't tell what the limitations were for the back.

Chris - most of my shooting is on a 125 or 210, though I use a 72 and 450 on occasion, using a Canham DLC45.  I'm assuming  shorter lenses and maybe smaller camera are in the cards, but want to get used to the back first.  Agreed it won't be the same as 4x5, but still better than 35mm DSLR.

Doug - That is quite helpful.  I was having difficulty trying to separate the two on the promotional materials.

Dick and Jeff - I've never considered stacking exposures (never occurred to me, even though I have friends who are into astrophotography)  - time for an experiment on the DSLR.


Edwin - I wouldn't be averse to a Sinar, but I haven't seen them showing up used that often, so I haven't looked into them that much.

Thanks, everyone!

Bill

 Whillst you are unlikely to find one used, the Aptuss II 10 is as wide a sesor as the P65+ and costs 30-40% less as a stand alone purchase (P65 can be better value when bought as part of a larger order). I don't know how these two compare for long exposures, but both being dalsa chips of the same generation prob. about the same - I would have thought at least a minute.

Before buying the non-plus P45, read Michaels P45 against P45+ review on this site, for some reason the non-plus version was no way near as sharp, but then you normally pay a $5K premuium for teh plus version even on the second hand market.

I have to make do with a Kodak Pro Back 645 being a poor student (about 15 seconds is the limmit!)
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drew

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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2009, 01:28:09 pm »

These days, the world of 'larger' sensor photography just boils down to either Phase or Hasselblad, but there are some interesting variations within the Phase 'family'. I have been using the Mamiya 645 AFDII with the ZD back for the last two years. Generally, people seem to reach for the spitoon whenever the ZD is mentioned, but as I understand it, it uses a 46x38mm 22MP sensor and the exposures will go out as long as you like (they are horribly noisy though beyond a minute). Mamiya still make adapters to put this back onto the RZ67 ProII SD and onto 4x5 cameras. The performance of this back is poor at the extremes of dynamic range, but make no mistake, you can get good images out of it and it has an interesting (and I think unique) trick up its sleeve in that it can do true infra-red. It is just a shame that corporate priorities are likely to have dictated a lack of support for this product in terms of firmware support, because it is cheap, it is self-contained and it is practical (takes SD and CF cards).
I am just in the process of buying the Leaf Aptus 75S (will probably keep the ZD as a back up and to do the IR). I am told this is essentially the same as the Aptus II 7, but with a slightly dimmer LCD screen. Reviews on this site and elsewhere seem to indicate that this back is competitive with the P45+ and I think I am right in saying that it does not suffer with the colour shift issue when using movements. It is less self contained than the Phase back in that the battery hangs off the bottom of it, but that is the price you pay for the large LCD screen. I was told that the Dalsa based sensors have a more 'filmic' quality to them than the Kodak based sensors (as in most of the Phase backs) and I am certainly very impressed with the quality of the images out of this back. That really just leaves the issue of the longer than 30 seconds exposure thing (which it cannot do). Personally, I cannot see what the problem might be here. You get 12 stops of DR out of the Leaf back. Unless you want to shoot in really low light (and I would use a current full-frame DSLR for that), it should easily meet your needs.
As for the LF thing, well I have spent the last 25 years shooting LF to get the photographic quality and speaking personally again, I think it is a massively overrated pastime. I cannot tell you how much of a relief it was to finally get rid of all my LF gear finally about eighteen months ago. However, I have been thinking about an LF type camera to go with the leaf back, if only so that I can use say a 24mm SA XL. I would forget about your Canham or just about any 4x5 camera and I would want a totally rigid setup with the lens in a helical mount. Depth of focus issues could be dealt with with say Helicon Focus and I might be interested in a bit of rise, but even then, not that much. I would look at something like the Alpa TC (light, cheap and totally rigid) or the Cambo Wide RS with the Schneider 24mm lens (Calumet seem to be doing a good deal on that just now).
Just my slightly alternative thoughts on your conundrum...... Oh and no one is going to give me a spanking for saying the 'wrong' thing(!)
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2009, 01:54:38 pm »

Quote from: Ed Jack
Whillst you are unlikely to find one used, the Aptuss II 10 is as wide a sesor as the P65+ and costs 30-40% less as a stand alone purchase (P65 can be better value when bought as part of a larger order). I don't know how these two compare for long exposures, but both being dalsa chips of the same generation prob. about the same - I would have thought at least a minute.

Before buying the non-plus P45, read Michaels P45 against P45+ review on this site, for some reason the non-plus version was no way near as sharp, but then you normally pay a $5K premuium for teh plus version even on the second hand market.

I have to make do with a Kodak Pro Back 645 being a poor student (about 15 seconds is the limmit!)


Just for clarity - the Leaf Aptus II lists for about 19% less than the P65+ ($39,990 vs $32,494).

FYI - Kodak Pro Backs are worth at least $4,000 - $7,000 in trade, depending on which back you are trading in for.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2009, 02:04:49 pm »

Quote from: drew
I am just in the process of buying the Leaf Aptus 75S (will probably keep the ZD as a back up and to do the IR). I am told this is essentially the same as the Aptus II 7, but with a slightly dimmer LCD screen. Reviews on this site and elsewhere seem to indicate that this back is competitive with the P45+ and I think I am right in saying that it does not suffer with the colour shift issue when using movements.


Actually, my position with digital backs is that just about any digital back may require a white plexi capture to remove issues when using movements and/or wide lenses. I have stopped referring to these issues as "color shifts" but instead they are "anomalies", which may be rendered as a color shift or a sudden density shift, etc. There are numerous variables, the brand of the sensor, the model of the digital back, the lens (different brand lenses of the same focal length may not produce the same anomaly, or any anomaly at all), the camera movements, etc.

Some backs may never produce any issue, while others are known to. P45+ models are more prone to color cast, Aptus 75 more prone to density shift. In either case, the anomaly can be corrected by capturing a white plexi and applying that mapping to the original file in post.


Steve Hendrix
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Ed Jack

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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2009, 03:32:25 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
Just for clarity - the Leaf Aptus II lists for about 19% less than the P65+ ($39,990 vs $32,494).

FYI - Kodak Pro Backs are worth at least $4,000 - $7,000 in trade, depending on which back you are trading in for.


Steve Hendrix

 Yep I stand corrected, what I said was wrong, but atleast not as radiculous as some of the stuff said on this thread already ;-)
Ii promise I am not a Leaf fan boy...... although I do use a Kodak Back (not sure the 645M will work on a view camera... shame)
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Ed Jack

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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2009, 03:36:32 pm »

Quote from: drew
. The performance of this back is poor at the extremes of dynamic range, but make no mistake, you can get good images out of it and it has an interesting (and I think unique) trick up its sleeve in that it can do true infra-red.

If I leave the Ir filter off my Kodak pro back and whack the right filter over my lens, I reckon I can get "true IR" what ever that is. The M8 will sort of do this too give or take 100nm!

Who let that Kodak fan boy pedant in here  
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2009, 12:52:58 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
However, at anything above base ISO that minute long exposure begins to degrade pretty badly. If this is not the case with your H3D-II-39 please share an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO 100 (or higher) including a 100% crop on some meaningful detail so that we (myself included) can all be better informed. The H3D-31 has a base ISO of 100 and could do a minute long exposure at ISO100, but is not suitable for use on a view camera.

Here is an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO100...



I will also upload a 16-Bit if anyone wants to peep.

Now this image looks very deceptive as it looks like I was in daylight.  But it was getting pretty dark by that point.  You can see the time stamp is 1620 and sunset today was 1552, so that is the surreal nature of long exposure I guess!

When the upload is done I will edit this post to reflect the link.

16 - Bit TIFF

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2849451/H3DII39Long.tif.zip

3F Raw File

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2849451/H3DII39Long.fff.zip


Best,



David
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 02:46:41 pm by David Grover / Hasselblad »
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2009, 03:41:46 pm »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Here is an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO100...



David

I think we established one minute wasn't a problem.  Is this the basic limit then?  Or are much longer exposures possible?  I would suspect that anything that can't be done in a minute is something being shot for effect, such as star trails.  So if needing more than a minute, it's not 90 seconds or such, but it's more like several minutes or an hour.  Just curious where the Hasselblad is on this.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 03:42:11 pm by Wayne Fox »
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2009, 03:47:49 pm »

Quote from: Bill Lawrence
[indent][/indent]
I was trying to determine what the range of my usual shooting was with my 4x5.  Night shots are a small pecentage of my shots, but I'll frequently do f22 for a couple of minutes when I do it.  Worse comes to worse, I can drag along some Provia with me, which ha never been a problem for me with reciprocity, but i was trying to find a back that could at least come close to covering some of these shots.  If there are compelling reasons to go for different backs, I could dump this criterion, but if all else is equal, the ability for at least moderately long exposures is helpful.

Have you considered at all doing stitching with your 5DII? f8-f11 will probably give the same DoF as f22 on 4x5 with much shorter times.

Cheers,
Bernard
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