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Author Topic: canon MF camera coming?  (Read 15379 times)

geesbert

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canon MF camera coming?
« on: December 09, 2009, 03:58:14 pm »

I've just read Michael's review of the Harblei Cam. Thos huge Image circles of Canon's latest TS/E lenses might be needed for a future Canon with a larger chip alike Leica's s2, who knows? I am pretty shure the EF mount allows for bigger sensors, seeing how small the Nikon F-mount is and they finally manage Full frame 35mm. pure speculation....
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LiamStrain

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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 04:02:15 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
seeing how small the Nikon F-mount is and they finally manage Full frame 35mm.

Well that one makes sense at least, since it was a film mount.

I don't see Canon making a move into that field. It's a limited market with several well established players. But who knows. I've been wrong before (Just what is Leica thinking btw?).

JeffKohn

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canon MF camera coming?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 04:11:35 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
I've just read Michael's review of the Harblei Cam. Thos huge Image circles of Canon's latest TS/E lenses might be needed for a future Canon with a larger chip alike Leica's s2, who knows? I am pretty shure the EF mount allows for bigger sensors, seeing how small the Nikon F-mount is and they finally manage Full frame 35mm. pure speculation....
You would need more than two tilt/shift lenses to successfully launch a new format, so I don't think this is likely at all.

Keep in mind the hartblei is a mirror-less design, not an SLR. If Canon were to design a MF DSLR they wouldn't be able to use the existing lens mount. And if they were going to design an EVIL MF camera they probably wouldn't want to use the existing lens mount, either since a shorter flange distance would allow for the design of better wide-angles.

So I think there's about zero percent chance of this happening.
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BJL

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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 04:43:06 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
I've just read Michael's review of the Harblei Cam. Thos huge Image circles of Canon's latest TS/E lenses might be needed for a future Canon with a larger chip alike Leica's s2, who knows? I am pretty shure the EF mount allows for bigger sensors, seeing how small the Nikon F-mount is and they finally manage Full frame 35mm. pure speculation....

1. Canon's lens mount is particularly ill-suited to use in a larger format SLR: the distance from flange to focal plane is less than in all other 35mm formats, leaving less room for a larger mirror. The Hartblei has no mirror of course ...

2. T/S lenses need oversized image circles to work, so this is no indication that the lens system as a whole is suited to a larger format. In fact, designing a lens system that way would be wasteful over-engineering.

3. The story about Nikon F-mont being too small for full frame was misguided nonsense from the beginning. For one thing, the first Nikon mount full frame was announced earlier than Canon mount full frame: the Kodak 14/n was announced the day before the Canon 1Ds!

4. The whole idea of Canon or Nikon diverting resources into the tiny and shrinking DMF market is a recurring and empty fantasy. C&N never bothered when MF was a far larger market in the film era, and are instead more profitably "drinking MF's milkshake" with high end 35mm gear.
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JoeKitchen

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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 05:07:27 pm »

And if they really did make a MF camera, would it be worth it.  Lets remember one of the reasons 35 mm is not as expensive as MF is because more people then just pros buy these cameras allowing for a larger supply.  I think a MF Canon would cancel out all of those hobbyists and amateurs as possible purchasers thus forcing Canon to have a much lower supply and charge a bigger price to make a profit.
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Kirk Gittings

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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 05:23:58 pm »

I think Canon's strategy is simply to continually make 35 DSLRs that narrow the gap between and challenge the IQ of MF. Force these small companies to spent inordinate amounts on R&D to try and stay ahead until they fold. It reminds me of Reagan's strategy with the Soviet Union-push them technologically again and again and again until you bankrupt them and they collapse. Hopefully it will not work because the competition between high end DSLRs and MF helps us all.
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asf

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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 05:31:39 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
You would need more than two tilt/shift lenses to successfully launch a new format, so I don't think this is likely at all.

Does Leica know this?
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JoeKitchen

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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 05:44:24 pm »

Maybe if Canon would put a damn level in some of their cameras, they would look much more attractive.  I don't ask for much, nothing expensive, its not like levels are on the cutting edge of technology.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 06:23:35 pm »

Quote from: BJL
4. The whole idea of Canon or Nikon diverting resources into the tiny and shrinking DMF market is a recurring and empty fantasy. C&N never bothered when MF was a far larger market in the film era, and are instead more profitably "drinking MF's milkshake" with high end 35mm gear.

True, but the situation is very different now:

- from an economic standpoint, it is clear that the MF players still alive are not serving the market well with their elitist pricing,
- The future of these small operations is unclear and investing 60.000 US$ in those is a true act of faith,
- There are hundreds of thousands of photographers worldwide who think they need the MF look and would be interested in a more affordable solution that works,
- The prices of the lenses have doubled or tripled in 5 years,
- The prices of the DSLR are going down fast, and there is no way Canon and Nikon can hope to expand their revenue staying where they currently are, nobody is switching brand anymore...

So I am not saying this will happen, but the fact it didn't happen in the film days is IMHO no justification for this not happening now.

Cheers,
Bernard

Misirlou

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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 06:28:20 pm »

Quote from: JoeKitchen
Maybe if Canon would put a damn level in some of their cameras, they would look much more attractive.  I don't ask for much, nothing expensive, its not like levels are on the cutting edge of technology.

The one in the new 7D looks promising
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tokengirl

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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 06:48:24 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
True, but the situation is very different now:

- from an economic standpoint, it is clear that the MF players still alive are not serving the market well with their elitist pricing,
- The future of these small operations is unclear and investing 60.000 US$ in those is a true act of faith,
- There are hundreds of thousands of photographers worldwide who think they need the MF look and would be interested in a more affordable solution that works,
- The prices of the lenses have doubled or tripled in 5 years,
- The prices of the DSLR are going down fast, and there is no way Canon and Nikon can hope to expand their revenue staying where they currently are, nobody is switching brand anymore...

So I am not saying this will happen, but the fact it didn't happen in the film days is IMHO no justification for this not happening now.

Cheers,
Bernard

I sure do hope you're right.  I think they could price it in a way that would bring more users into the MF fold.
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John_Black

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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 06:58:17 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
True, but the situation is very different now:

- from an economic standpoint, it is clear that the MF players still alive are not serving the market well with their elitist pricing,
- The future of these small operations is unclear and investing 60.000 US$ in those is a true act of faith,
- There are hundreds of thousands of photographers worldwide who think they need the MF look and would be interested in a more affordable solution that works,
- The prices of the lenses have doubled or tripled in 5 years,
- The prices of the DSLR are going down fast, and there is no way Canon and Nikon can hope to expand their revenue staying where they currently are, nobody is switching brand anymore...

So I am not saying this will happen, but the fact it didn't happen in the film days is IMHO no justification for this not happening now.

Cheers,
Bernard

dSLR prices are going down?  I bought a Canon 10D in May 2003 for ~$1199 USD.  Today it's equivalent is a 7D which sells for ~$1499.  The 1Ds was $7999; the 1Ds3 was $7999 when announced.  The 1D has maintained its price point too.  Lenses cost more today than they did 5-6 years ago.  I think Canon has done a good job of containing price erosion.  Yes, today's dollar buys more MP & larger LCDs, but the price point has not changed.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:58:48 pm by John_Black »
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uaiomex

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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 07:00:05 pm »

I agree with Bernard. Since digital this is not Kansas anymore, it's Pandora. On other hand  let's remember that Nikon made a few MF optics and a complete line of superb large format glass. However, Canon is the best fighter in the arena to lessen the huge disparity in prices between formats that started with digital (imho).
Eduardo
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 07:03:36 pm by uaiomex »
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david o

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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 07:07:13 pm »

What I hope for from Canon or Nikon is more a 6*7 frame proportion like 30*36 or something close enough. I do not like much the 24*36 proportion... But I guess I'm alone... so it won't happen.
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Snook

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canon MF camera coming?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 07:12:50 pm »

Yeh, Santas' Elf's are making them right now and should be out in time for Christmas..
Snook
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bcooter

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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 07:16:03 pm »

Quote from: david olivier
What I hope for from Canon or Nikon is more a 6*7 frame proportion like 30*36 or something close enough. I do not like much the 24*36 proportion... But I guess I'm alone... so it won't happen.


Listed as ONLY a rumor

http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/12/canon-2010-roadmap-cr1/

BC
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uaiomex

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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 07:18:10 pm »

You are not alone. I do miss too a more square format since using dslr's for just about everything. I miss it especially for portraits and interior photography. Canon could make a smashing hit if they come with a 4:5 proportion revolving sensor camera to used with current line of lenses. However, the problem would be the mirror box as usual. Perhaps it's due time for super fast, super resolution, super all EVF's?
Eduardo

 
Quote from: david olivier
What I hope for from Canon or Nikon is more a 6*7 frame proportion like 30*36 or something close enough. I do not like much the 24*36 proportion... But I guess I'm alone... so it won't happen.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 07:19:32 pm by uaiomex »
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BJL

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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 07:20:05 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
True, but the situation is very different now:

- from an economic standpoint, it is clear that the MF players still alive are not serving the market well with their elitist pricing,
- The future of these small operations is unclear and investing 60.000 US$ in those is a true act of faith,
- There are hundreds of thousands of photographers worldwide who think they need the MF look and would be interested in a more affordable solution that works,
- The prices of the lenses have doubled or tripled in 5 years,
- The prices of the DSLR are going down fast, and there is no way Canon and Nikon can hope to expand their revenue staying where they currently are, nobody is switching brand anymore...

So I am not saying this will happen, but the fact it didn't happen in the film days is IMHO no justification for this not happening now.

Cheers,
Bernard
Yes it is different ... in a way that makes it far less profitable than MF film:
- The "elitist" pricing is the consequence of greatly reduced sales volume, due to the combination of far higher unit unit costs and the greater range of photographic needs now met by 35mm and even smaller formats, not due to MF makers suddenly getting greedier than before;
- the "hundreds of thousands of photographers worldwide who think they need the MF" are mostly talking but not buying, and never will buy, due to the inherently far high prices.
- The tripling of lens prices (and similar increases in prices of bodies, apart from back costs) is primarily the inevitable consequence of declining sales volume, though it starts a vicious spiral through depressing sales volume further.
- The prices of the high end DSLR's are not going down one iota: every high end, high res. 35mm format DSLR from the original 1Ds to the 1DsMkIII and D3X has come to market at the same US$8000. The less expensive, lower spec. 35mm format models like the 5DMkII sell in such greater volume that 35mm format DSLR is overall probably far more profitable than it was in the era before the 5D: that increased volume is how Canon and Nikon expand their revenue, not by investing in a very small and shrinking market sector.

But why do I bother: predictions of MF from Canon and Nikon have been popping up like weeds for years, and it is impossible to refute such a prediction until the word comes to an end! (Some people refuse to acknowledge that the teaser ads last year misinterpreted as being for a coming Nikon MF system were actually for the D3X!)


P.S. Nikon's making of some manual focus large format lenses has very little with the idea of developing a MF system; Nikon's discontinuation of those lenses early in the digital era is more indicative of the dominant trend away from the larger formats rather than towards them.
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uaiomex

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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 07:27:13 pm »

That's true I guess, but also an indicative of a missing sector for profit.

Quote from: BJL
P.S. Nikon's making of some manual focus large format lenses has very little with the idea of developing a MF system; Nikon's discontinuation of those lenses early in the digital era is more indicative of the dominant trend away from the larger formats rather than towards them.
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stevesanacore

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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 07:35:30 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
I've just read Michael's review of the Harblei Cam. Thos huge Image circles of Canon's latest TS/E lenses might be needed for a future Canon with a larger chip alike Leica's s2, who knows? I am pretty shure the EF mount allows for bigger sensors, seeing how small the Nikon F-mount is and they finally manage Full frame 35mm. pure speculation....


No way Canon is going to move that way when the future is probably more towards HD video/still cameras. That is where the demand is right now. As much as I want a MF (maybe an S2), for my fine art work, I don't think the future is very promising for MF camera makers. Canon is positioned very well to make a killer 35mm full frame HD video/still camera that uses EF lenses. I think that market is the only one that is desperate for new designs and solutions. Sadly, the next generation 1Ds will probably put the final nails in the MF coffin for 99.9% of the professional market.

I just read the rumor for a new canon square 35mm format - now that is an interesting thought that wouldn't require new optics as would a larger rectangular format. Sounds a bit crazy to make such a radical change to their flagship camera though. As any of us old enough to remember making a living with Hasselblad 500's the square image was almost always cropped to a rectangle so the usable area would be no better than the current 1Ds is now.

Sure makes for exciting times...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 07:43:20 pm by stevesanacore »
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