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Author Topic: Great Kiva (Restored)  (Read 5857 times)

JeffKohn

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« on: July 29, 2009, 12:17:41 am »

These images are from a visit to New Mexico back in the spring. For some reason I never got around to posting them and kinda forgot about them until now. This is Aztec Ruins National Monument, which is a bit of misnomer since the ruins were actually built by the Anasazi just like most of the other ruins in the Four Corners area. We stopped by here to kill some time one rainy afternoon, when trudging back into the Bisti Wilderness wasn't really an option due to the weather. It turned out to be a pretty interesting location. This Great Kiva has been restored, I guess to represent what structures might have been like "back in the day". There are also some well-preserved ruins there, I may post a couple of those images later.



Stairway, Great Kiva (Restored)



Interior, Great Kiva (Restored)


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Jeff Kohn
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bill t.

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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 12:45:09 am »

Very nice looking shots, luminous as they say.

But I wish the stupid railings and the light bulb weren't there!  Is it still used ceremonially?  Maybe that makes it OK.  Same deal as the gas meter at Taos.
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wolfnowl

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 01:50:04 am »

Nice work!  I'm more curious about the name, especially since the Aztecs were nowhere close to New Mexico...

Mike.
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DarkPenguin

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 02:16:29 am »

http://www.nps.gov/azru/

Looks to be an Anasazi ruin misnamed.
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francois

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 03:58:36 am »

Quote from: bill t.
Very nice looking shots, luminous as they say.

But I wish the stupid railings and the light bulb weren't there!  Is it still used ceremonially?  Maybe that makes it OK.  Same deal as the gas meter at Taos.
The place is very dim. Without some artificial lights, it would be difficult to "enjoy" the place.
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Francois

RSL

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 12:06:28 pm »

Very nice, Jeff. It appears the Anasazi were required to build to "code."
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JeffKohn

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 12:30:23 pm »

Thanks everyone.

Quote
But I wish the stupid railings and the light bulb weren't there!
Yeah, the lightbulbs I don't mind so much, although I did try to keep them out of the first shot. The stairway/railing definitely seem anachronistic; I guess authenticity took a back seat to safety/liability issues in this case. You can see the "real" steps beneath the stairway. On the other hand the light/shadow interplay created by the stairway is part of what I like about the first shot so...

Quote
Is it still used ceremonially?
AFAIK it's strictly a tourist attraction now.


Quote
I'm more curious about the name, especially since the Aztecs were nowhere close to New Mexico...
Apparently the early American settlers to the area mis-identified the ruins as Aztec and the name stuck. But the ruins were built by the Anasazi people, same as in nearby Mesa Verde and Chaco Canyon.

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Jeff Kohn
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Kirk Gittings

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 01:12:03 pm »

A favorite haunt of mine, hard to find good images in IMO. Nice work Jeff. I prefer the "ruins" actually, though even the "ruins" have been massaged seriously by the park service. But a true untouched ruin in the SW is usually a hill of collapsed rock walls and windblown silt covered with grasses, cactus and sage.

Any way here is one of mine, 210 lens, Phillips 4x5, Fuji Across film and maybe an orange filter. I think I was using the wall at left to hide the building you show.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 01:12:59 pm by Kirk Gittings »
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cmi

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 03:30:12 pm »

Jeff, good images undoubtely, but I somehow can't connect with the buildings. But this is strictly personal taste. I like the breaked up symmetry in the second.
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 11:14:59 pm »

Kirk, Thanks. I agree it's not the easiest location to shoot, especially given that the ruins are right in the middle of town. I like your shot, you've got some nice light there, and the dark foreground frames the ruins nicely.

Christian, thanks for the feedback. When you talk about the broken up symmetry, do you mean the non symmetric features on the back wall, or the composition itself.

Anyways here are the two images of the actual ruins that I edited. The rest I took were pretty blah.


Ruins and Storm Clouds



Doorways


« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 11:15:16 pm by JeffKohn »
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Jeff Kohn
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button

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 11:34:15 pm »

I like these last two the most, Jeff.  For me, they capture the "ruin mystery" that I don't get from the first two.  However, I do like the lines in the stairway shot.  Good work.

John
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cmi

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 04:39:00 am »

Quote from: JeffKohn
...When you talk about the broken up symmetry, do you mean the non symmetric features on the back wall, or the composition itself...

Didn't thought about that... but since the building itself is not symmetrical, I guess Im talking about this
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 04:39:23 am by Christian Miersch »
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RSL

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2009, 10:27:55 am »

Jeff, The doorways seems to me the best of the lot. It conveys a feeling the others don't quite get across. Good shooting.
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Jeremy Roussak

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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 01:17:35 pm »

Quote from: RSL
Jeff, The doorways seems to me the best of the lot. It conveys a feeling the others don't quite get across. Good shooting.
My thoughts exactly. It's a really good image.

Jeremy
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popnfresh

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 03:48:35 pm »

These are gorgeous shots. The first two look like they should be in an architectural magazine. Very well done. But I like the last pair the best. Their composition and tonality remind me of Paul Caponigro's photography of Stonehenge and the paleoliths. They have an air of ancient mystery and perhaps a little eeriness that's very hard to capture. Great job.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 04:00:26 pm by popnfresh »
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JeffKohn

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2009, 04:11:59 pm »

Thanks again for the feedback folks, I appreciate it.
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Jeff Kohn
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Misirlou

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2009, 04:28:23 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
Apparently the early American settlers to the area mis-identified the ruins as Aztec and the name stuck. But the ruins were built by the Anasazi people, same as in nearby Mesa Verde and Chaco Canyon.

"Anasazi" is a word derived from Navajo, roughly meaning "ancient enemies." Perhaps unsurprisingly then, the modern day pueblo tribes who believe themselves to be descended from those who built these structures (the structures in New Mexico we now call "Chaco" and "Aztec") find the term "Anasazi" deeply offensive. Interestingly, most of the ones I know drastically prefer to be called "Indian," rather than the currently-fashionable "Native American." Bottom line: The current most politically correct term for the people that built that thing is "Ancestral Puebloans."
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 04:31:30 pm by Misirlou »
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JeffKohn

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2009, 04:49:35 pm »

Quote from: Misirlou
"Anasazi" is a word derived from Navajo, roughly meaning "ancient enemies." Perhaps unsurprisingly then, the modern day pueblo tribes who believe themselves to be descended from those who built these structures (the structures in New Mexico we now call "Chaco" and "Aztec") find the term "Anasazi" deeply offensive. Interestingly, most of the ones I know drastically prefer to be called "Indian," rather than the currently-fashionable "Native American." Bottom line: The current most politically correct term for the people that built that thing is "Ancestral Puebloans."
Interesting, though I wonder how much consensus there is on this stuff. I've seen the term Anasazi in lots of materials online and in print, usually with the associated meaning "ancient ones" rather than "ancient enemies", and I almost certain my Navajo guide at Monument Valley used the term (which was just a couple years ago).

I've never understood the PC obsession with deciding that the current name/term for something is offensive and a new one must be created, only to repeat the same process again a decade or two later. Seems pretty silly to me.
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Jeff Kohn
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JeffKohn

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2009, 11:52:27 pm »

I have a revision of 'Ruins and Stormclouds' that's a little less crunchy, I think I may have went a little overboard with the local contrast first time around:



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Jeff Kohn
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Misirlou

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Great Kiva (Restored)
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2009, 01:52:07 am »

Quote from: JeffKohn
Interesting, though I wonder how much consensus there is on this stuff. I've seen the term Anasazi in lots of materials online and in print, usually with the associated meaning "ancient ones" rather than "ancient enemies", and I almost certain my Navajo guide at Monument Valley used the term (which was just a couple years ago).

I've never understood the PC obsession with deciding that the current name/term for something is offensive and a new one must be created, only to repeat the same process again a decade or two later. Seems pretty silly to me.

I think it's silly too. I'm just catching up everyone on the current state of things. At the obvious risk of stereotyping, I'd say that among the larger tribes in these parts, the Navajo are the least concerned with PC terms. The people I know who are most offended by "Anasazi" come from the pueblos that feel particularly connected to the Chaco culture. I once met an Acoma man who was especially unhappy about it (Acoma origin legends are absolutely fascinating, and some archeologists believe there may indeed be something to their claim of having come from Chaco after it fell). I suppose the big picture here is that there were, and still are, a lot of different kinds of people living in the region. We shouldn't expect everyone here with a great degree of non-european blood to think or feel the same about everything.

A good example is the current newspeak for corn. Apparently, a lot of people have been led to believe that "maize" is or was a "Native American" word for corn, and that we should all therefore return to calling it that. It's pretty common to see statements in PC documents such as "The production of maize in the US fell by...blah...blah...blah." Well, I'm no expert in indian languages or their histories, but there are still hundreds of entirely distinct pre-columbian languages spoken inside the US alone, and countless others that died recently with their last speakers. Clearly, there was no such thing as a single word for corn among them all, just as there is no common word for rice in Asia today. "Maize" is popular enough among the Spanish-speaking people of the western hemisphere, but I don't see that as a valid reason to ditch the English word.

Anyway, to get back to things photographic, it's really difficult to shoot a lot of the ruins anywhere in the region now. Many of the more well-known sites can't be accessed during the hours when light is the most dramatic. Or, they're constantly crawling with hordes of tourists. Aztec is far enough off the "10 best" type lists that you can actually shoot it from time to time. Many of us question the quality of the "restoration" of that Kiva, but there isn't anything else quite like it that I'm aware of. I'm glad you got to shoot it. I used 35mm film last time I was there, maybe 15 years ago, and got some fairly dismal results. If you ever get the time, I could suggest a number of more remote sites that are awfully compelling. Not as easy to get to for sure, and most of them are in a terrible state of ruin, but they really give one a personal sense of experiencing the ancient ones directly. A few years ago, I came across a pottery shard that still clearly had impressions of the fingerprints of its maker. Very spooky.
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