Leaf not offering trade-in upgrades on backs anymore??

[jing q]

Recently I have been trying to upgrade my Leaf Aptus 75S to an Aptus 10-II and numerous dealers have told me that Leaf has stopped offering upgrades on their backs.
Which pisses the hell out of me because when I bought into the leaf system I was specifically told that I could upgrade the back. And I believe their sales literature still touts this "benefit" that the back maintains a higher value because of their generous upgrade offers.

Has anyone faced the same problem? yaya mentioned last time that the upgrade costs on a Leaf would be reasonable, but now that option seems nonexistent.

[ddk]

Recently I have been trying to upgrade my Leaf Aptus 75S to an Aptus 10-II and numerous dealers have told me that Leaf has stopped offering upgrades on their backs.
Which pisses the hell out of me because when I bought into the leaf system I was specifically told that I could upgrade the back. And I believe their sales literature still touts this "benefit" that the back maintains a higher value because of their generous upgrade offers.

Has anyone faced the same problem? yaya mentioned last time that the upgrade costs on a Leaf would be reasonable, but now that option seems nonexistent.

I'm facing the same situation, I guess what they're offering is a huge discount on the new backs, good for new buyers but for us. Anyway Phase's trade up price to a P65+ isn't all that attractive here in the US either, but to add insult to injury is the trade in offer I got from my dealer   !

[Steve Hendrix]

I'm facing the same situation, I guess what they're offering is a huge discount on the new backs, good for new buyers but for us. Anyway Phase's trade up price to a P65+ isn't all that attractive here in the US either, but to add insult to injury is the trade in offer I got from my dealer   !

I feel it is meritable that we still accept trade-ins and have a trade-in program. I also feel the trade-in value is reasonable in the current state of our industry.

P45+ to P65+ upgrade is $15,990 for Classic Warranty, $17,490 for Value Add Warranty. A Classic P45+ brand new lists for $23,990. Refurbished P45+ units list for $18,990. And used units somewhere below - say $16K - $18K. So that means we are giving the owner at least a $7,000 premium over what they could get for their used P45+ on the open market.

No, trade-in values aren't as good as they once were. But things have changed, the market has become more saturated and a substantial portion of all unit sales are upgrades - more so than years past. So profitability pressure on upgrades is more than before. I know in the past, there were some sweetheart upgrade deals. Those days are gone. But even considering that, I feel we are still giving our users good value for their trade-in.

If a trade-in value is equivalent to the street price, then a manufacturer is doing you the favor of moving your existing product for you - no small thing in this economy. If it is more than street value, that is not a bad deal.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Henry Goh]

I guess things changed with the times.

I remember reading right on this forum, members complaining that MFDB makers were trading in their backs and upgrading the original customers to something newer and better.  This kept used backs off the second-hand market and ebay.  The unhappiness then was that those of us who wanted to buy into MFDB could not find anything less pricey since the trade-in values were attractive enough for the user to sell back and top up for a new back.

Right now, the used market is different.  We see backs being offered in the Sale forum as well as ebay regularly. However, the prices that owners get are not all that good.  This is because manufacturers have dropped their prices so the attraction is to go buy a new back instead of a used one.  I know because I bought a back from Phase recently after quite a long wait.  I expect that by the time I want to upgrade, the remaining value will be very low.

What this means is like all tech stuff, depreciation is very very steep.  However, if indeed one has written commitment at time of purchase that they will get $XXX for a trade-in, then that is a different matter all together.

[PHOTO ZARA]

Recently I have been trying to upgrade my Leaf Aptus 75S to an Aptus 10-II and numerous dealers have told me that Leaf has stopped offering upgrades on their backs.
Which pisses the hell out of me because when I bought into the leaf system I was specifically told that I could upgrade the back. And I believe their sales literature still touts this "benefit" that the back maintains a higher value because of their generous upgrade offers.

Has anyone faced the same problem? yaya mentioned last time that the upgrade costs on a Leaf would be reasonable, but now that option seems nonexistent.

one more light off

sorry to hear that

[jimgolden]

yeah we're all screwed - it's the new low price that we're supposed to be thrilled about...

[Dustbak]

This was unavoidable. After Hasselblad skipped the uptrade program and dropped their prices significantly the others had to follow. I also guess they are happy to be able to get rid of the mill-stone called trade-in. I am pretty sure Phase eventually has to follow as well.

Sour for those of us that were planning to upgrade our existing equipment to the latest spec's or those of us handy enough to buy a cheap 2nd hand old back and trade it up to save a load of money on new equipment

OTOH, now the 2nd hand market is coming up which hopefully will attract new interest into MF digital. I just hope dealers or manufacturers will realize they need to help support people with their backs bought 2nd hand or even mediate between buyers & seller (also a great way to create a relation with people that might be buying new in the future). If people are shied away from buying 2nd hand because of lack of places to go to for support we all get stuck with our backs. I am not telling this support needs to be free! People just need to have the idea they will not be 2nd/3d/4th rate customers as owners of 2nd hand equipment.

I for one will not buy a new back before I can get rid of at least one other back, not anytime soon that is.

[bcooter]

This was unavoidable. After Hasselblad skipped the uptrade program and dropped their prices significantly the others had to follow.

I would imagine most medium format makers are sitting on a lot of last generation inventory, so taking trade ins probably isn't in their best interest, given the price of the used market and given the fact that most used medium format backs do not have a lot of heavy use anyway.

This all gives me a mixed feeling.  One one hand we're are back to where camera purchases were pre digital, where you bought it, your owned it and if you wanted something new you bought something new, without much thought if the manufacturer would take one in on a trade in.

These lower prices also makes it logical to keep your current back and use it as a backup without worrying about the money lost if you didn't trade it in.

Still, the price drops kind of put a lump in my throat when I think of where the prices were even 12 months ago and I wonder if this is the bottom or we will see further price reductions.

If we see further price cuts, the makers of new backs will find themselves in competition with the used market.

B

[jing q]

So Leaf is basically treating us the way that Hasselblad is officially treating their customers which is to say no more trade-ins because they're so cheap now.
Except they never officially say it.
at least Hasselblad had the balls to say it loud and proud.

Sorry but this is just another example of medium format manufacturers failing to live up to one of their promises. I don't care what justification they give on the business-side of things but it just leave a very sour taste in my mouth.

To make it clear, I asked two dealers and Leaf wasn't even OFFERING a trade-in, they said they stopped doing trade-ins because the new prices were so low.

[Peartree]

Recently I have been trying to upgrade my Leaf Aptus 75S to an Aptus 10-II and numerous dealers have told me that Leaf has stopped offering upgrades on their backs.
Which pisses the hell out of me because when I bought into the leaf system I was specifically told that I could upgrade the back. And I believe their sales literature still touts this "benefit" that the back maintains a higher value because of their generous upgrade offers.

Has anyone faced the same problem? yaya mentioned last time that the upgrade costs on a Leaf would be reasonable, but now that option seems nonexistent.

Dear Jing q

Don't know what the dealers are saying in the USA, but certainly here in the UK you are able to upgrade within the Leaf family. As an example Upgrade an Aptus 75S to an Aptus-II 10 is £9,718 (incudes 3 year manufacturers warranty) + VAT
For non Leaf back users there is still an upgrade path but only to the new AFI-II 10 and Aptus-II 10
You are more than welcome to contact me directly for more details.
Lawrie

[harlemshooter]

technology innovation (or at least access to), competition and market penetration up, prices down.  same old story.  the corporation values profit much more than customer relationships.  unfortunately they will never fully grasp the direct relationship between.

i do wish that leaf would honor their commitments to past customers.  but it really is no surprise.  

albeit in a different price segment, adobe did the same thing (no upgrade policy) with early versions of photoshop.

[Graham Mitchell]

i do wish that leaf would honor their commitments to past customers.  but it really is no surprise.

The problem is really that it was such a loose promise (and I'm not picking on Leaf here). A promise of a trade-in program without a guaranteed price means nothing. I'm sure the dealer would personally give you a trade-in for your old back if the price were low enough, but it would probably be a price most would find unacceptable (well below market price for the used back). So I suppose Leaf is really saying "we could offer you something but you would be better off disposing of your old back yourself".

[jing q]

Dear Jing q

Don't know what the dealers are saying in the USA, but certainly here in the UK you are able to upgrade within the Leaf family. As an example Upgrade an Aptus 75S to an Aptus-II 10 is £9,718 (incudes 3 year manufacturers warranty) + VAT
For non Leaf back users there is still an upgrade path but only to the new AFI-II 10 and Aptus-II 10
You are more than welcome to contact me directly for more details.
Lawrie

unfortunately the price I had assumed was a respectable one isn't offered anymore.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....hl=yaya+upgrade

[Peartree]

unfortunately the price I had assumed was a respectable one isn't offered anymore.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....hl=yaya+upgrade

You are absolutely correct, Leaf offered a fanatastic upgrade price for the first few months after the Aptus-II 10 back was announced. Peartree encouraged their clients to take up the offer and avoid being disapointed, it was an early "adopter"  price to encourage users to upgrade and to stimulate sales, it proved very successful in the UK.

Lawrie

[pixjohn]

Just call Leaf America and ask?

[Boris_Epix]

If we see further price cuts, the makers of new backs will find themselves in competition with the used market.

B

You realize how much nonsense that statement is. How would a used old-technology 2nd hand back with possibly no warranty compete with a new back that comes with full warranty, new technology, etc if offered at a similar price? The only thing that this would do is put more pressure on used backs prices. And that's what we're seing now.

The result would probably be more people getting into the MFDB game either through really affordable used backs or more affordable new backs.

It doesn't seem like MFDB's are getting much cheaper. It's only the old stock of backs that have been available for years. The new backs are still priced to keep most serious buyers that care for pixel quality swallow and get a 5D MK2 or D3x.

But I don't think pricing is the biggest problem with MFDB's. The biggest problem is features and usability. And then maybe price in relation to features/usability.

[bcooter]

You realize how much nonsense that statement is. How would a used old-technology 2nd hand back with possibly no warranty compete with a new back that comes with full warranty, new technology, etc if offered at a similar price? The only thing that this would do is put more pressure on used backs prices. And that's what we're seing now.

The result would probably be more people getting into the MFDB game either through really affordable used backs or more affordable new backs.

It doesn't seem like MFDB's are getting much cheaper. It's only the old stock of backs that have been available for years. The new backs are still priced to keep most serious buyers that care for pixel quality swallow and get a 5D MK2 or D3x.

But I don't think pricing is the biggest problem with MFDB's. The biggest problem is features and usability. And then maybe price in relation to features/usability.

It's a new world out there.  Today, you don't buy anything with a large price tag for a 10 to 20% upgrade in quality, that carries a 90% upgrade in costs.

Shoot a 30mpx  back and deliver images to your client.  Next project borrow a 40 someting megapixel back and deliver images to your client.  They WILL NOT notice the difference and you probably won't either if you put all the images in the same folder.  

So why does a used peethirtyplus that goes for about the price of a Nikon effect new medium format sales?  Because your clients will not notice the difference.

Hasselblad knows who their competition really is and it's Canon/Nikon, that's why they've lowered their prices, stopped the trade up system and is aggressive on getting their product into the professional market; rentals, techs, studios and photographers.   Hasselblad also knows they've got a lock on the professional medium format "camera" business.  Everyplace in the world rents for the H series, no other medium format make comes close in availability.

Don't think this is the end of the medium format price wars, this is just the beginning and the winner will be the one that sells for the lowest price and has product you can buy and use today, not hope for tomorrow.

B