H3DII-60, said to be coming in April 2009

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

I guess we have to re-define the term vaporware: for me it is (pre)announcing a product which one exactly knows that one does not have it (no roadmap or other plans for it, no R&D done and moreover, NO hardware available) and with no chance to have it any time soon. In our case of the 22,2 MPx sensor it was a time frame of 1 year exclusivity + the additional time needed thereafter to design the product, after this sensor being available for all.

I put you on the test to tell one single product announced as vaporware by Sinar. I agree that there were/are many delays for many products, but in this particular case of the 22 MPx sensor, we are speaking about something completely different.

Actually I could not care less now, but truth has to be said.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry I do appreciate your interpretation of the term "vaporware".

But I base my use of the term more on how I perceive the photographic end user community utilizes it; A product that has been announced - potentially with an indication of delivery timeframe - and which does not meet that timeframe. To an end user, if a product is announced and said to be ready by a certain date, but the date comes and goes, for all practical purposes to that end user, the product is vaporware. They don't give a dang what drawings are on the board, how far into development they are, etc. All they care about is when can they actually use it. Until then, it is vaporware. And in that sense we are all guilty on mutliple counts.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Ken Doo]

That was not my point at all, Ken. No, "the party was not ruined", although certainly not completely harmless. It was rather question about "Godfathers of Vapourware".
We simply "noticed" this behavior, and I must say that I was shocked to hear this everywhere with people apparently "buying" and believing it. Therefore I am not as sure as yourself about all being "smart enough to get past the verbage".

Best regards,
Thierry

Well---let's not spoil Hassleblad's party here (off-topic).... Even though I shoot with Phase, I'm excited to see Hasselblad's offerings.  It's great to see fantastic images from both.  And competition is a what drives ingenuity.

 

[Peartree]

Steve,

I guess we have to re-define the term vaporware: for me it is (pre)announcing a product which one exactly knows that one does not have it (no roadmap or other plans for it, no R&D done and moreover, NO hardware available) and with no chance to have it any time soon. In our case of the 22,2 MPx sensor it was a time frame of 1 year exclusivity + the additional time needed thereafter to design the product, after this sensor being available for all.

I put you on the test to tell one single product announced as vaporware by Sinar. I agree that there were/are many delays for many products, but in this particular case of the 22 MPx sensor, we are speaking about something completely different.

Actually I could not care less now, but truth has to be said.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

You are absoultely correct in your definition of "vaporware", you have hit the nail on the head; when Phase One announced their 22mp back they did NOT have a sensor in R&D and this was because Kodak had an exclusive deal with Sinar and therefore as we have already said the product Phase One was claiming to have only existed on paper! ergo 'Vaporware'

Lawrie

[Steve Hendrix]

Thierry,

You are absoultely correct in your definition of "vaporware", you have hit the nail on the head; when Phase One announced their 22mp back they did NOT have a sensor in R&D and this was because Kodak had an exclusive deal with Sinar and therefore as we have already said the product Phase One was claiming to have only existed on paper! ergo 'Vaporware'

Lawrie

I don't think you want to even go there. The list of culprits could be quite long.

I stand by my definition of the term. The term vaporware is used by photographers to describe a product that is announced but not delivered. They don't care when you start. They only care when you finish.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Kitty]

Well---let's not spoil Hassleblad's party here (off-topic).... Even though I shoot with Phase, I'm excited to see Hasselblad's offerings.  It's great to see fantastic images from both.  And competition is a what drives ingenuity.

 

Absolutely agree! I am phase user too.
But Hasselblad is a strong player and getting better.

Still wait for the answer.
Any news about Hasselblad 60MP?
I would like to get more technical info.

[ThierryH]

Steve,

I have to disagree with you, with all my respect, and I guess you know exactly what I mean to say. It is a bit easy to stand by this definition which fits your claims. I will put it clearer, for the understanding of all:

PO has simply made endusers believe something which they knew was not true, and which they knew was not true for a VERY LONG period of time.

That is COMPLETELY different with announcing a product and not holding the timeframe, for whatever reason, and despite the fact that endusers do possibly suffer the same.

I can affirm you, since you don´t seem to make a difference, that such has never been Sinar´s philosophy and handling of endusers/customers.

Best regards,
Thierry

I don't think you want to even go there. The list of culprits could be quite long.

I stand by my definition of the term. The term vaporware is used by photographers to describe a product that is announced but not delivered. They don't care when you start. They only care when you finish.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Carsten W]

Steve, I have to agree with others here. Phase One has a habit of announcing things way before they are ready, and in this case, before development had even started. They don't always do this, and in some ways maybe they are getting better, but it is clear to see, and it is not matched by what others companies do. The current item is the leaf shutter lenses. Long promised, no date on the horizon. Other companies play the game differently.

On the other hand, I cannot imagine that Phase One announced their first 22MP back to take the wind out of Sinar's sails. How would that work anyway, since one back was available and the other not? Rather, I would guess that Phase made the announcement out of desperation, to make sure that their existing customers did not abandon ship, and to reassure people that Phase would continue to be in the game in the future, so that their funds didn't dry up.

I can affirm you, since you don´t seem to make a difference, that such has never been Sinar´s philosophy and handling of endusers/customers.

Do you mean "since you don't seem to *see* a difference"?

(Thierry, "you don't seem to make a difference" heisst eher "du bist nicht wichtig" als "du siehst kein Unterschied").

[ThierryH]

hi Carsten,

Yes, that`s what I meant to write, "see a difference", thanks for the correction.

And "out of desperation" is the correct way to interpretate what PO did at that time.

Best regards,
Thierry

On the other hand, I cannot imagine that Phase One announced their first 22MP back to take the wind out of Sinar's sails. How would that work anyway, since one back was available and the other not? Rather, I would guess that Phase made the announcement out of desperation, to make sure that their existing customers did not abandon ship, and to reassure people that Phase would continue to be in the game in the future, so that their funds didn't dry up.

Do you mean "since you don't seem to *see* a difference"?

(Thierry, "you don't seem to make a difference" heisst eher "du bist nicht wichtig" als "du siehst kein Unterschied").

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve, I have to agree with others here. Phase One has a habit of announcing things way before they are ready, and in this case, before development had even started. They don't always do this, and in some ways maybe they are getting better, but it is clear to see, and it is not matched by what others companies do. The current item is the leaf shutter lenses. Long promised, no date on the horizon. Other companies play the game differently.

On the other hand, I cannot imagine that Phase One announced their first 22MP back to take the wind out of Sinar's sails. How would that work anyway, since one back was available and the other not? Rather, I would guess that Phase made the announcement out of desperation, to make sure that their existing customers did not abandon ship, and to reassure people that Phase would continue to be in the game in the future, so that their funds didn't dry up.

Carsten

You are agreeing with other's opinions, but I am stating what actually happens as someone who directly participated. Phase One is not alone in announcing things "way before they are ready" as you put it. I have spent years selling products from Leaf, Hasselblad and - yes - Sinar, which were announced way before they were ready, with missed ship dates to follow. Other companies do not play the game differently. I sold these products and I can give you example after example where the same situations have occurred.

As far as announcing a 22MP product before we even began development, what difference does it make? It's not like we lied, it's not like we just made it up. If we did not come through with the actual product, then yes you could state that, but we announced the product with a ship date of June 2004, and while we didn't meet that ship date, units did begin shipping in early fall, so not that far off.

I'm sorry but I just see Sinar guys jumping up and down because they had an exclusive and we made plans after hearing of this to also offer this product to customers who wanted that chip in a Phase One product. Is this "under-handed" as Foto-Z says? Please give me a break.



Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[elitegroup]

[Carsten W]

Steve, I am not saying that no one else pre-announces, just to be sure. Anyway, since we are on the topic, perhaps you can give an update on where the leaf shutter lenses are in their development cycle. I know a lot of people are waiting for these with bated breath. And the grip too.

[lisa_r]

Hey man, I'd love it if Canon would start announcing things well before they are ready - with full specs. Seriously, it would be very helpful, IMO.

[ThierryH]

Steve,

Sorry to have to insist on this one.

I remember a post of yours, when you were still on the other side, and in which you wrote, that Sinar was a company which hold their promises of announced products most of the time. I am too "lazy" to search for this post, but if it needs then I´ll find it. I am sure you can recall it yourself.#

This being said: I have been at the front line, when exclusivity was annouced by Sinar, and I was at the front line as well to "see" with my own eyes the reaction of PO. It was at Photokina and it took them by surprise, since NOBODY was aware of the announcement, not even the Kodak Photo Division: Believe me, it was not like stated by you, the same day of the announcement we "learned" that PO HAD this 22 MPx back as well. If that does not sound like "made up", then I don´t know what to answer.

By the way, your date of 2004 is mistaken: Sinar announced it at Photokina 2002, in September, and had exclusivity until September 2003. PO announced it as well, the 22 MPx, to be available "in a few months after Photokina", not in June 2004.

http://dpnow.com/vintage/news/1202/news242/news242.html

Please give me a break as well.

Best regards,
Thierry

... - yes - Sinar, which were announced way before they were ready, with missed ship dates to follow.

As far as announcing a 22MP product before we even began development, what difference does it make? It's not like we lied, it's not like we just made it up.

I'm sorry but I just see Sinar guys jumping up and down because they had an exclusive and we made plans after hearing of this to also offer this product to customers who wanted that chip in a Phase One product. Is this "under-handed" as Foto-Z says? Please give me a break.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

Sorry to have to insist on this one.

I remember a post of yours, when you were still on the other side, and in which you wrote, that Sinar was a company which hold their promises of announced products most of the time. I am too "lazy" to search for this post, but if it needs then I´ll find it. I am sure you can recall it yourself.#

This being said: I have been at the front line, when exclusivity was annouced by Sinar, and I was at the front line as well to "see" with my own eyes the reaction of PO. It was at Photokina and it took them by surprise, since NOBODY was aware of the announcement, not even the Kodak Photo Division: Believe me, it was not like stated by you, the same day of the announcement we "learned" that PO HAD this 22 MPx back as well. If that does not sound like "made up", then I don´t know what to answer.

By the way, your date of 2004 is mistaken: Sinar announced it at Photokina 2002, in September, and had exclusivity until September 2003. PO announced it as well, the 22 MPx, to be available "in a few months after Photokina", not in June 2004.

http://dpnow.com/vintage/news/1202/news242/news242.html

Please give me a break as well.

Best regards,
Thierry

Ah, Thierry my friend, with both you and I in debate, this thread will never end! Sorry about the dates - was it that long ago? My gosh we're getting old fast.

Ok, let's make this real easy. Yes, I did say Sinar holds most of their promises - and I would still say that. But I would not say they hold all of their announcements on time. None of us can say that.

As far as the real crux of this argument, which goes back to how "under-handed" we were to announce a product that was not yet on the board. I am not disputing that. I am disputing that it matters. Whether we had it on the board or not. Once Sinar announced it - and by the way, at the time I actually worked for Sinar too, so I was on the front line also - Phase One did indeed put it on the board, projected a delivery date, and came (relatively) close to making the date. So we either made a quick phone call to Dalsa or were so confident of our ability to get this product out before a year's time that we let our customers know it was on the way.

And indeed it was. What does it matter? All our customers care about is that you ship it when you say. And we came close.

Was this desperate? Perhaps. But when a competitor announces an exclusive on a product that is a huge leap forward (remember the biggest chip at the time was 37mm x 37mm, this was 49mm x 37mm - whole new ballgame) you better believe there will be a response, brother. And there was - the H25 was a huge seller for Phase One. I know, because at the time, I had to compete against it.

And you know any time you want a break from me, you got it. You're the hardest worker on this forum - you deserve it!  


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[ThierryH]

Steve,

Ah, Thierry my friend, with both you and I in debate, this thread will never end! Sorry about the dates - was it that long ago? My gosh we're getting old fast.

Yes, still friends, why not? it does not mean that we cannot discuss or argue. It is indeed already so long ago, and there is even prescription by now:

 

Ok, let's make this real easy. Yes, I did say Sinar holds most of their promises - and I would still say that. But I would not say they hold all of their announcements on time. None of us can say that.

Thanks.

As far as the real crux of this argument, which goes back to how "under-handed" we were to announce a product that was not yet on the board. I am not disputing that.

I was not saying it was under-handed, everybody can make his own opinion.

I am disputing that it matters. Whether we had it on the board or not. Once Sinar announced it - and by the way, at the time I actually worked for Sinar too, so I was on the front line also -

By "front line" I meant being at the Photokina booth at that time, in September 2002, and having seen PO´s management "knocking" daily at our booth to "beg" to get it from us, not from Kodak.

Phase One did indeed put it on the board, projected a delivery date, and came (relatively) close to making the date. So we either made a quick phone call to Dalsa or were so confident of our ability to get this product out before a year's time that we let our customers know it was on the way.

Certainly not Dalsa, they did not have any 22 MPx then. I insist to say that it was impossible to give any date of delivery with this situation, and at Photokina 2002 the date given by PO was not June 2003, but exactly "we have it too", to be clear. When asked more precisely, "a few months" was the answer: many customers can confirm this.

And indeed it was. What does it matter? All our customers care about is that you ship it when you say. And we came close.

You dont seem to know the real reason why PO came close to the date. It was Sinar which decided, in June 2003 to get rid of the remaining 3 months of exclusivity and agree to make this sensor public and for all.

Was this desperate? Perhaps.

It certainly was.

But when a competitor announces an exclusive on a product that is a huge leap forward (remember the biggest chip at the time was 37mm x 37mm, this was 49mm x 37mm - whole new ballgame) you better believe there will be a response, brother. And there was - the H25 was a huge seller for Phase One. I know, because at the time, I had to compete against it.

I don´t disagree with that, I disagree with the way it was done. I like to be able to look at myself in the mirror. But this seems to be normal business practice, and it seems even to work quite well. One reason why I worked at Sinar for so long was the type of honesty policy which makes you proud to be part of the company.

And you know any time you want a break from me, you got it. You're the hardest worker on this forum - you deserve it!  

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

  too. No harm was meant with this, simply clarifications for the record and the good sake.

Best regards,
Thierry

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve,

I was not saying it was under-handed, everybody can make his own opinion.

Best regards,
Thierry

No you didn't. Mr. Peartree actually brought the subject up, and Foto-Z piled on with "under-handed". But the overall opinion being expressed was negative towards Phase One, and well, here we are. That much is ok - like you say, all are welcome to an opinion. I'm just disagreeing.

By "front line" I meant being at the Photokina booth at that time, in September 2002, and having seen PO´s management "knocking" daily at our booth to "beg" to get it from us, not from Kodak.


Certainly not Dalsa, they did not have any 22 MPx then. I insist to say that it was impossible to give any date of delivery with this situation, and at Photokina 2002 the date given by PO was not June 2003, but exactly "we have it too", to be clear. When asked more precisely, "a few months" was the answer: many customers can confirm this.


You dont seem to know the real reason why PO came close to the date. It was Sinar which decided, in June 2003 to get rid of the remaining 3 months of exclusivity and agree to make this sensor public and for all.

My bad, I meant Kodak. But again, I have already stated that it makes no difference whether we had the plans or not. We made a projection and we delivered. You say we claimed "we have it", then it was "a few months". Really? Then this link should make very interesting reading as it shows in the press release dated September 25, 2002 a stated eta of June, 2003:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PKN...1033270831.html

Which makes it very interesting, to say the least, your claim that Sinar - I guess out of the goodness of their heart - happened to decide in June, 2003, (the very same month that was announced as our delivery date 9 months previously in the release link above), would prematurely end their exclusive contract before they had to... for some reason.

Hmmm....


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[ThierryH]

My bad, I meant Kodak. But again, I have already stated that it makes no difference whether we had the plans or not. We made a projection and we delivered. You say we claimed "we have it", then it was "a few months". Really? Then this link should make very interesting reading as it shows in the press release dated September 25, 2002 a stated eta of June, 2003:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PKN...1033270831.html

Which makes it very interesting, to say the least, your claim that Sinar - I guess out of the goodness of their heart - happened to decide in June, 2003, (the very same month that was announced as our delivery date 9 months previously in the release link above), would prematurely end their exclusive contract before they had to... for some reason.

Hmmm....


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

That is INDEED very interesting, and I know this press release since we have all read it, to claim such the very FIRST day of the Photokina 2002. It does not change the fact that we had PO visiting us daily at the booth during the exhibition, and we had them thereafter in Switzerland. And it does not change the fact that at Photokina PO was claiming to "have this sensor too".

And the decision by Sinar to get rid of the 3 months remaining exclusivity was taken BY Sinar and in JUNE 2003, not on September 25th 2002. I won´t speak about the reasons why this decision was taken, but it was not under pressure from PO, if one is leaning toward this thought.

Therefore YES, such a press release is very interesting. My guess is that PO certainly knew that Kodak would/could not break this exclusivity agreement with Sinar. So what is left to think about the whole?

Alright, that´s it for my part.

Best regards,
Thierry

[Steve Hendrix]

That is INDEED very interesting, and I know this press release since we have all read it, to claim such the very FIRST day of the Photokina 2002. It does not change the fact that we had PO visiting us daily at the booth during the exhibition, and we had them thereafter in Switzerland. And it does not change the fact that at Photokina PO was claiming to "have this sensor too".

And the decision by Sinar to get rid of the 3 months remaining exclusivity was taken BY Sinar and in JUNE 2003, not on September 25th 2002. I won´t speak about the reasons why this decision was taken, but it was not under pressure from PO, if one is leaning toward this thought.

Therefore YES, such a press release is very interesting. My guess is that PO certainly knew that Kodak would/could not break this exclusivity agreement with Sinar. So what is left to think about the whole?

Alright, that´s it for my part.

Best regards,
Thierry

I think we've each said enough.

Sweet dreams!


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[ThierryH]

No, you´re wrong Steve, its 12.10 pm here in Singapore: so sweet dreams to you.

Best regards,
Thierry

Sweet dreams!


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

[jing q]

No, you´re wrong Steve, its 12.10 pm here in Singapore: so sweet dreams to you.

Best regards,
Thierry

what are you doing in singapore Thierry, do you know Mei and Gin?