More Details on the Leica S2

[rogan]

The most asked question I hear from photographers is will Nikon or Canon make a medium format sized camera.  I think all of us know they can and obviously both have made optics for about everything, so making a lens line large enough to cover a 645 frame wouldn't be a leap.  Actually I don't think anyone believes Canon or Nikon can't build any camera they want, if the market is large enough for profit.

What is interesting is nobody asks about a Canon or Nikon because they dislike the image quality from their digital backs, they just want the same usability and ease in medium format they have with their dslrs and the real truth is the dslrs have gotten much better and much easier to use, while medium format still struggles with in camera processing, readable lcd's and in a lot of cases software development.

The Leica seems interesting, but it also seems one step back even before introduction.  Yes Leica glass can be nice, (also it can be problematic when the quality control falls down which happened a lot with the M8), but I seriously wonder if the world is really waiting for a low iso ccd camera with semi slow lenses for two or three times the cost of a d3x or Canon 1ds3?

The Leica seems more of an enthusiasts camera than a working photographers tool, but I guess they will sell I just wonder how many.

If Leica does aim the S2 at the professional it needs to get past the usual medium format business model of slow deadlines and wait and see product.  It must come out on the shelves working, with full lenses, software and in rentals or it will be like the HY6.  A nice camera that becomes buried in a niche market.

Now on the flip side of this, if Leica had annouced that this camera had a 920,000 pixel lcd, would tether to robust software, went to a real clean 800 iso, looked like film out of the camera and had fast lenses all in the F2 minimum range I would take a hard look.  Actually I guess I'm saying I'd like a d3x with a leica logo and a larger frame size, or even better put a pentax 6x7 with an endless roll of film.  Saphire glass doesn't really turn me on.

Or even better if Leica had annouced an M series with a cmos sensor or 17 to 20 mpx, and autofocus lenses, I'd write the check today.

James,
 Keep in mind this will be the fastest mf line of lenses ever made(top to bottom) To me the deal breaker is multi point af. Nikon or Canon comes out with mf, I write a check today. Otherwise I will wait and see

[archivue]

i still read D3X everywhere... i've test it with the 24 PC-E for architecture shots... nothing to compare with a 22MP MFDB and rodenstock digital 35 !

So there is some stuff that a D3X can't handle !

I'm looking forward to see how the S2 will perform with the shift lens.

But anyway, i won't go that way... i don't like the 2:3 ratio, and the S2 can't be used fot stiching.

i'm still using a 5DII for now with TS-E and Oly Shift lenses... and looking forward for the same live view on a MFDB...

[dfarkas]

i still read D3X everywhere... i've test it with the 24 PC-E for architecture shots... nothing to compare with a 22MP MFDB and rodenstock digital 35 !

So there is some stuff that a D3X can't handle !

I'm looking forward to see how the S2 will perform with the shift lens.

But anyway, i won't go that way... i don't like the 2:3 ratio, and the S2 can't be used fot stiching.

i'm still using a 5DII for now with TS-E and Oly Shift lenses... and looking forward for the same live view on a MFDB...

Why do you say the S2 can't be used for stitching?

[dfarkas]

Hate to be a buzz kill, but what you mean is "if the S2 were currently a production product it would be the fastest production medium format system".

I think it's kind of silly to assume that neither Leaf, Phase, Sinar, nor Hasselblad will have any new products released by the time the S2 is shipping in any real quantities.

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Hey, Doug. I'm not so sure it's silly. The S2 prototype currently shoots real DNG files at 1.5 fps. Show me a Phase, Leaf, Sinar, of Hassy product (in production, just announced, or working prototype) that does the same.

When the S2 starts shipping in late summer, I think the only major change in the MFD landscape will be more sales promotions, not new products. So many companies are in panic/survival mode in this economy (not just in the photo segment, obviously). R&D budgets are being slashed, valued personnel are being let go, and future projects are being put on hold.  With massive price cuts and/or crazy value-added promotions to move existing inventory, why would any of the major players try to introduce a new top dog to market? Phase just came out at Photokina with the P65+, Hassy with the H3DII-50/60, Leaf with the AFI-II 10. These units just started shipping recently. I can't imagine that anything newer will come along in the next 5-6 months.

David

[James R Russell]

James,
 Keep in mind this will be the fastest mf line of lenses ever made(top to bottom) To me the deal breaker is multi point af. Nikon or Canon comes out with mf, I write a check today. Otherwise I will wait and see

I think this is a bold move for Leica and one that should be applauded.  The idea of new system is almost unheard of in today's time and well, I think it's brave.

And since the camera is not out in final spec., none of us really know what it will do, though I know from a working standpoint if it's marketed to professionals and not well off amateurs then the camera will have to come out hitting on all cylinders, with the lens line in place, the software stable . . . . . .  all the stuff we've all been talking about for years.

In fact I hope all the camera companies do well, because it is a reflection of our industry.

I still think at some point medium format needs a wake up call.  Obviously that market knows what most of us have been asking for and for a variety of reasons get close, but never really there.

Maybe the Leica will be the camera to break that mold.  I hope so, but things mentioned like tethering is still in the works does make me wonder if they are making a camera for me, or a surgeon.

[mcfoto]

To me the let down with the S2 is the 30x45 chip. The P65 is 41x55 ( approx). Also with the Phase/Mamiya alliance why not revisit the ZD camera. Pot a new generation chip (36x48) which camera already has ( Dalsa 22 MP )  & let Phase put there knowledge into the existing body with a 3" screen. There is a large  existing lens lineup with C1 Pro SW. Even though I don't own the ZD camera anymore I still miss its ease of use even with the limitations. It is a 2004 design & a 2009 upgrade with Phase could make this camera really work. But in this economy I am not holding my breath.
Denis

[Smallcooter]

Maybe the Leica will be the camera to break that mold.  I hope so, but things mentioned like tethering is still in the works does make me wonder if they are making a camera for me, or a surgeon.

Given Leica's track record, they will say one thing and mean another, meaning that Leica say that the S2 is aimed at courting professionals but hope to sell it to surgeons. It is somewhat like a Breitling or a Panerai; association with fighter pilots and Navy commandos but who is really sporting them? The surgeon market has more disposable income, is bigger and gentler on the S2 than professionals.

Splitting hairs, would one consider a 30mmx45mm chip Medium Format? That gives it a diagonal of 54mm, not quite Medium Format, in my humble estimation. So the S2 lenses aren't really that 'fast'.

Let us wait and see what happens with the S2 in late summer.

Schmal.

[tho_mas]

Why do you say the S2 can't be used for stitching?

not stitching based on panning a panorama head but stitching based on the shift of the DB (or the lens) within the larger image circle of LF lenses when using a tech camera.
or are you saying that the TS lens will be able to be shifted in four directions? more than, say, 10mm?

[georgl]

They already showed some pictures (on LFI and on screen during presentations) and despite color/artifacts (prototype, no RAW-profiles) sharpness was definitely on par with 39MP-backs + the very best Rodenstock/Schneider-lenses. This quality is simply in a different league than 35mm.
The MTFs also look not too different so this makes sense. In fact, the S-lenses seem to reach the quality of the best stopped down MF-SLR-lenses even at open aperture! Open aperture f2.5 is really fully usable, which cannot be said about MF-lenses or Nikon/Canon-glass with their 20+MP-beasts. Remember that these are the central-shutter-lenses, faster lenses will follow (although depth of field will be crucial).

The CCD is an entirely new design (first used in the H3DII-50) and because of the microlenses, the S2 will be about one effective stop faster, it has about the size of Prosumer-Full-Frame-SLRs, it's extremely rugged and quite fast by MF-standards (no DSPs but a custom-made ASIC as a processor) and of course the lenses are unique. MFDBs with microlenses (33x44mm -> 31MP: H3DII-31, P30...) are professionally usable up to 400/800ASA while a D3X goes about one stop faster (were talking about pro-standards) so it will be quite interesting to see what the new CCDs (the 31MP-backs use the previous, 4 year old Kodak-CCD-architecture) are capable of.  
Internal processing and good looking JPGs will most likely be superior with the Nikon/Canons, but hopefully the S2-JPGs won't look as horrible as my M8-JPGs (6-8MP-DSLR-class...).

It's not going to be a super fast press-camera, but an interesting alternative for those who are not happy with the ergonomics of MF or IQ of 35mm.

Of course 30x45 is far from 645-full-frame, but MF is still mostly 36x48mm (which is more a different aspect-ratio than a different sensor-size) and bigger formats make some lenses extremely difficult to design (has anbody handled MF-zooms?).

We should be thankful that somebody invested this much money in an entirely new system, it won't be the pefect tool for everybody, but having a choice is always nice!

[Graham Mitchell]

Open aperture f2.5 is really fully usable, which cannot be said about MF-lenses or Nikon/Canon-glass with their 20+MP-beasts.

I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open.

Remember that these are the central-shutter-lenses, faster lenses will follow (although depth of field will be crucial).

Only the 35, 70, 120 and 180 were announced as central-shutter lenses. The rest are designed for focal plane shutter only.

[rainer_v]

i believe in the S2 and in their qualities after i have tried it out. at the moments i hardly doubt that this moment will come .....
and after the last years of leica products, their flaws and their service i hardly doubt that the quality will convince me.
all this although having been a loyal long year leica user in the film days.

[Carsten W]

Now on the flip side of this, if Leica had annouced that this camera had a 920,000 pixel lcd, would tether to robust software, went to a real clean 800 iso, looked like film out of the camera and had fast lenses all in the F2 minimum range I would take a hard look.  Actually I guess I'm saying I'd like a d3x with a leica logo and a larger frame size, or even better put a pentax 6x7 with an endless roll of film.  Saphire glass doesn't really turn me on.

The screen will have 460.000 dots (I presume you mean 920.000 dots, like the new Nikons, i.e. they count R, G and B separately), which is pretty close to the best of the new Nikons, and much better than any of the older screens. I believe that the ISO 800 will be quite usable, from what Leica is saying, but I guess we will have to wait and see what they deliver. I am not sure how many MF f2 lenses are really needed. If they made a 100/2 it might be enough.

[georgl]

"I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open."

What lenses do you mean? I know many people like the rendition e.g. of the Planar 110 wide open, but that's not what I would consider as "sharp" compared to the power our sensors have. Just take a look at the MTFs, outside of the center many of these lenses barely reach 30% contrast at 40lp/mm, that's visible. I also loved the 80mm Planar of my beloved 501CM, but it was blown away by my Summilux Asph at open aperture (f1,4 vs. f2.!

The presented S-lenses are just "normal speed", faster lenses will come in the future (that's why also the standard focal length is just f2.5).

I wonder why they decided for the 460k-LCD?

[Graham Mitchell]

"I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open."

What lenses do you mean?

The Rollei lenses I have: 40mm f3.5, 80mm f2.8, 150mm f4, 180mm f2.8. The 80mm f2 is not sharp like the others.

Here's a 100% crop from the 80mm f2.8 lens wide open:

[Guy Mancuso]

"I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open."

What lenses do you mean? I know many people like the rendition e.g. of the Planar 110 wide open, but that's not what I would consider as "sharp" compared to the power our sensors have. Just take a look at the MTFs, outside of the center many of these lenses barely reach 30% contrast at 40lp/mm, that's visible. I also loved the 80mm Planar of my beloved 501CM, but it was blown away by my Summilux Asph at open aperture (f1,4 vs. f2.!

The presented S-lenses are just "normal speed", faster lenses will come in the future (that's why also the standard focal length is just f2.5).

I wonder why they decided for the 460k-LCD?

My guess power and more power going into the processing engine for faster speeds. 3 inch LCD do take power, running a lower pixel count on the LCD would just take less juice than a higher one. Actually in reality it looked pretty darn good but I would like to see it outside in the sun under real world viewing. I think it is the same pixel count as the IPhone

[hankg]

I really think Leica would like to break out of the retro collector box and get back into the mainstream of photography. I can see why they would choose to design the S2 as a quasi MF design considering the competition and price structure in the 35mm DSLR market.

But I just don't see anyone taking a $20 - 30,000 flyer on a brand new system with no track record in this sort of economy. Can Leica afford to stock rental houses and supply the kind of support to make a go of it? As nice as the S2 may be I don't see it making it in the current environment. Maybe if they got it out at the height of the boom it would have had a chance. I expect by the time the economy recovers there will be a lot fewer camera companies and a lot fewer pro photographers. I think safety and security, getting more for less rather then being on the cutting edge or having the latest and greatest is going to be the predominant mode for the near future.

[lisa_r]

i still read D3X everywhere... i've test it with the 24 PC-E for architecture shots... nothing to compare with a 22MP MFDB and rodenstock digital 35 !

So there is some stuff that a D3X can't handle !

I'm looking forward to see how the S2 will perform with the shift lens.

What I think is funny is that everyone is talking about the D3x being the pinnacle, but apparently (according to my NY dealers) no one is buying it! Great camera, lusty feature set, flexible, MF-like shadow noise, billions of lenses in rental, and hardly any takers at $8K. What does this say about your S2 launch this year? (at 3-4 (?) times the price for the system and nothing in rental...)

According to these pro dealers (fotocare, calumet, etc., etc.) everyone is buying the 5D2. They can not keep them in stock. So the somewhat handicapped 5D2 (i.e. iffy focus, iffy weather sealing, etc.) is eating everyone's lunch. Even though it is not the ultimate camera. Here's what it is: it's pretty good, and it's cheap. Just what the accountant ordered.

Again, this does not bode well for the S2 launch. We shall see.

p.s. was there even a single pro in the world asking for a saphire lcd cover and was willing to pay extra for it? I think Canon replaces scratched LCD covers for around $10.

[eronald]

The 5D was the killer camera, I think almost everyone on this Medium Format forum (well, 50%) owned one without admitting to it.

Edmund

What I think is funny is that everyone is talking about the D3x being the pinnacle, but apparently (according to my NY dealers) no one is buying it! Great camera, lusty feature set, flexible, MF-like shadow noise, billions of lenses in rental, and hardly any takers at $8K. What does this say about your S2 launch this year? (at 3-4 (?) times the price for the system and nothing in rental...)

According to these pro dealers (fotocare, calumet, etc., etc.) everyone is buying the 5D2. They can not keep them in stock. So the somewhat handicapped 5D2 (i.e. iffy focus, iffy weather sealing, etc.) is eating everyone's lunch. Even though it is not the ultimate camera. Here's what it is: it's pretty good, and it's cheap. Just what the accountant ordered.

Again, this does not bode well for the S2 launch. We shall see.

p.s. was there even a single pro in the world asking for a saphire lcd cover and was willing to pay extra for it? I think Canon replaces scratched LCD covers for around $10.

[Carsten W]

The 5D was the killer camera, I think almost everyone on this Medium Format forum (well, 50%) owned one without admitting to it.

Edmund

I owned one, but after a few months, I found myself unhappy with it and sold it. The 5D2 is not even on the list of cameras I would like to be given. I much prefer the A900, in spite of its limited high ISO.

[lisa_r]

I owned one, but after a few months, I found myself unhappy with it and sold it. The 5D2 is not even on the list of cameras I would like to be given. I much prefer the A900, in spite of its limited high ISO.

Yes, everybody know that even for $2700 the 5D2 is not The Ultimate Camera. Question is, are you willing to buy an $8000 D3x instead? (apparently not many people are) How about a $30,000 S2 instead??