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Author Topic: Franke & Heidecke became insovent  (Read 179965 times)

Dustbak

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #300 on: June 27, 2009, 02:39:35 am »

Quote from: mcfoto
I remember that time in 2006 with the release of the Hy6. At the time there was no way that Phase One was going to be part of this platform. It was a way for Sinar to gain market share & with Leaf on board that was the plan. If the Hy6 was an open platform for all backs including Hasselbad along with Phase One would we have had the same outcome? The other variable was Canon (1DsMKIII, 5DII) Nikon D3 & D3X plus the Sony FF camera.
Denis


I think the outcome would have been very different if P1 was let in on the Hy6 project from the get-go. I distinctly remember a lot of people were stressing this. The stubbornish to keep P1 out of the deal has now backfired in the faces of both leaf as well as Sinar. The MFDB market in its totality has suffered from this unhealthy form of competition.

I hope this is warning enough for the 2 remaining parties....
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #301 on: June 27, 2009, 06:26:12 am »

I am so curious what will happen to the HY6 and more so to Sinar as a digital back maker. Will they stay in the game? We need Michael to became friends with the heads and chiefs at Jenoptik, just to feed my curiousity.
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BJNY

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« Reply #302 on: June 27, 2009, 08:09:07 am »

I would like to know who was steering the bus, and responsible for:
• 90º finder missing in action
• electronic cable release for camera body missing in action
• accurate masking in viewfinder missing in action
• 150mm AF lens (announced/shown for years) missing in action
Due to bad management or lack of funds?

Would Hasselblad's H1 platform have succeeded with these [critical] items missing at launch time?
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Guillermo

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« Reply #303 on: June 27, 2009, 09:18:31 am »

Quote from: xinchenc
F&H planned to produce the 150m AFD in June 2009. But now I have found a manual focus 150mm Tele-Xenar lens which is just great.

Auto-focus version of 150mm Tele-Xenar appeared at trade shows going back 4+ years.
"AFD" is just marketing  as you've attested how good the manual focus version is.
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Guillermo

antonyoung

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« Reply #304 on: June 27, 2009, 09:21:46 am »

Quote from: bradleygibson
It's hard to say, because the causes of F&H's trouble (demise?) are so poorly understood.

I don't think we know how efficient their manufacturing was--what kinds of profit they were making, or the nature/magnitude of this 'hidden debt'.

Well some of that at least is known... they were not making a profit.
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gwhitf

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« Reply #305 on: June 27, 2009, 09:36:54 am »

Quote from: xinchenc
As a Leaf AFi user in China, I think the biggest problem for the AFi system is that they should have announced a full-frame 645 sensor, not that stupid wide-format Afi 10, at a reasonable price, and give all provious AFi users a FREE upgrade or an upgrade at low charge, because the AFi early users like me (purcashed in March 2008) have to suffer almost 50% price depreciation within just 10 months.

I would advise most everyone to just accept this "50% price depreciation" right off the bat, and factor that into whether you really need that piece of gear. I think it's world-wide, universal now. I'd say as soon as you drive it off the lot it's worth 50%; not just 10 months later. There are simply less buyers out there now, and that drives down the resale price. You see these ads here on LL, with these dreamers thinking they're gonna get 75% of what they paid for something, and the gear simply sits there idle, until the seller gets realistic (or desperate). And this applies to most anything, any brand Medium Format. It is a dying breed.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 09:38:18 am by gwhitf »
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mcfoto

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Franke & Heidecke became insovent
« Reply #306 on: June 27, 2009, 10:04:24 am »

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=13410&st=0

This the thread from LL 2006 about the Hy6. Also some hints that PO will not be part of the Hy6. How times have changed in 2.5 years.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #307 on: June 27, 2009, 11:49:20 am »

@GWhitf,
Maybe a blunt remark and not meant like that, so don't take it the wrong way, but if you're so against MF why post in MF section ?
For you we might all suffer from mass hysteria, hypnosis or are brainwashed but this is the MF forum I think......

I don't think a lot of MF guys agree with you that it's all bad, I for one love shooting with MF and I use my DSLR very spares and only when I have to do something I can't do with MF.

So a dying breed ?
I don't think so, it is however a market that is often looked upon only for the MP's and the rest is forgotten.
Give me a DLSR that beats my Leaf back on the RZ67ProII IMAGE wise and I will switch immediatly.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #308 on: June 27, 2009, 12:07:48 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@GWhitf,
Maybe a blunt remark and not meant like that, so don't take it the wrong way, but if you're so against MF why post in MF section ?
For you we might all suffer from mass hysteria, hypnosis or are brainwashed but this is the MF forum I think......

I don't think a lot of MF guys agree with you that it's all bad, I for one love shooting with MF and I use my DSLR very spares and only when I have to do something I can't do with MF.

So a dying breed ?
I don't think so, it is however a market that is often looked upon only for the MP's and the rest is forgotten.
Give me a DLSR that beats my Leaf back on the RZ67ProII IMAGE wise and I will switch immediatly.
.. and a market which could be much bigger than it is, if the companies wouldnt have thought only in themselfs individually and not in the overall market ( and way too less from a photographic view to their products ). so they didnt care if the market at all was affected by their politic, they even didnt thought about such possibility, they only tried to cut out a bigger piece of the smaller and smaller cake, which became smaller mainly for their politic,- ofcourse together with the fast increase of 35mm quality, which already is over the need for most professinal work, quality wise.
i
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 12:07:59 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #309 on: June 27, 2009, 12:20:26 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
.. and a market which could be much bigger than it is, if the companies wouldnt have thought only in themselfs individually and not in the overall market ( and way too less from a photographic view to their products ). so they didnt care if the market at all was affected by their politic, they even didnt thought about such possibility, they only tried to cut out a bigger piece of the smaller and smaller cake, which became smaller mainly for their politic,- ofcourse together with the fast increase of 35mm quality, which already is over the need for most professinal work, quality wise.
i

Don't get me wrong Rainer I agree with you on that.
What worries/bugs me a bit are a certain group op posters that clearly don't like MF but are posting every time again the MF part of the forum.
It's like the opel drivers posting in a Volvo forum.

I would love to see :
better display (useless as it is)
better high-iso performance
faster AF

But to be honest I'm already very happy with what my system brings me, I know it's not a DSLR in terms of speed or high-iso but I don't use it for that, for those shots I have my DSLR, it's all horses for courses.
But I agree 100% with you that :
A prices have been way too high for too long
B development on features is lacking way behind DSLRs

On the other hand sometimes the quality alone is worth it.

I look at it this way, if someone would over me newprice today for all my MF gear would I sell if I had to promise to NOT shoot MF again.
I think no.


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rainer_v

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« Reply #310 on: June 27, 2009, 12:27:21 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Don't get me wrong Rainer I agree with you on that.
What worries/bugs me a bit are a certain group op posters that clearly don't like MF but are posting every time again the MF part of the forum.
It's like the opel drivers posting in a Volvo forum.

depends on a bit who these opel drivers are and how experienced they are ...
in case that these are formel one drivers they can chat  about cars in general, even about volvo and i would be sure they have some useful to say .
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 12:30:24 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #311 on: June 27, 2009, 01:01:56 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
depends on a bit who these opel drivers are and how experienced they are ...
in case that these are formel one drivers they can chat  about cars in general, even about volvo and i would be sure they have some useful to say .
100% true so that would mean positive input with a critique here and there.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #312 on: June 27, 2009, 01:25:22 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
100% true so that would mean positive input with a critique here and there.
depends on if m.schumacher likes volvo cars ...
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rainer viertlböck
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #313 on: June 27, 2009, 02:06:46 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@GWhitf,
Maybe a blunt remark and not meant like that, so don't take it the wrong way, but if you're so against MF why post in MF section ?
For you we might all suffer from mass hysteria, hypnosis or are brainwashed but this is the MF forum I think......

I don't think a lot of MF guys agree with you that it's all bad, I for one love shooting with MF and I use my DSLR very spares and only when I have to do something I can't do with MF.

So a dying breed ?
I don't think so, it is however a market that is often looked upon only for the MP's and the rest is forgotten.
Give me a DLSR that beats my Leaf back on the RZ67ProII IMAGE wise and I will switch immediatly.


Are you serious Frank???? Is this some kind of saturday night ( morning) fever? As a Opel driver, who used to drive a Volvo and rents a Volvo, if I need one, I'm not allowed to ask, while getting in the car to drive from A to B, " where is the f%&king steering wheel" because the guys in the product development just forgot, that a leather covered and round steering wheel will add to the driving experience...


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amsp

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« Reply #314 on: June 27, 2009, 02:41:15 pm »

I'm a Mamiya/PhaseOne user, but I'm not at all pleased by the news of P1 buying Leaf. I think Sinar and Leaf should have joined forces and saved the AFI platform together. It makes much more sense, and having one more strong player on the market competing with P1 and Hasselblad would have been better for everyone, especially us photographers. The lack of choices in gear since the advent of digital is getting worse by the day it seems, and it sucks big-time.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 02:41:40 pm by amsp »
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #315 on: June 27, 2009, 02:54:49 pm »

@Heinrich,
Again don't get me wrong.
I don't mind people with DSLRs posting on a MF forum, no problem at all.
What bugs me a little bit is people only posting post to put something down.

Ofcourse there are also things I don't like about MF, don't get think I don't.
But it's very harsch to lately see an almost perfect MF forum going down to a zillion threads that as only topic has trying to get MF user to sell their stuff and go for a DSLR.

That's more the idea I get.
Sorry if it comes over wrong.
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TMARK

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« Reply #316 on: June 27, 2009, 03:05:35 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
.. and a market which could be much bigger than it is, if the companies wouldnt have thought only in themselfs individually and not in the overall market ( and way too less from a photographic view to their products ). so they didnt care if the market at all was affected by their politic, they even didnt thought about such possibility, they only tried to cut out a bigger piece of the smaller and smaller cake, which became smaller mainly for their politic,- ofcourse together with the fast increase of 35mm quality, which already is over the need for most professinal work, quality wise.
i

I agree.  The MFD makers were busy fighting over the pie while the pie was being carried away by 35mm and the change in the market for photography.  Back in the day (as recently as 2004) there was lots of fat in commercial photography, at least in NYC and LA.  Clients would pay lip service to costs but would change a layout on day 2 of a 3 day shoot, which required day 1's set up, you know, the set up with $20k in rentals/location fees.  As Blad locked everyone out, and Sinar/Leaf/F&H locked out Phase, the makers looked around and saw the tide receeding, the market eroded by dslrs, shrinking budgets, punishing shooting schedules that precluded the use of MFD.  C'est la Vie.
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tho_mas

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« Reply #317 on: June 27, 2009, 03:13:45 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
But it's very harsch to lately see an almost perfect MF forum going down to a zillion threads that as only topic has trying to get MF user to sell their stuff and go for a DSLR.
actually "gwhitf" said the opposite - don't sell your MF gear (if you have MF gear) as you don't get back a reasonable proportion of what you once paid.
Maybe he also said that it's not the very best idea to buy new MF gear... but actually he didn't say that either. He said everyone should
Quote
"accept this "50% price depreciation" right off the bat"
. There's nothing wrong about that IMHO... it's close to reality.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #318 on: June 27, 2009, 04:00:46 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I would love to see :
better display (useless as it is)
better high-iso performance
faster AF

But to be honest I'm already very happy with what my system brings me,



Frank,

You make some valid points, but you confuse me.  Your happy with what you have, but you want more and for less price, but your happy with what you have.

I kind of think that's what most are saying.

I don't know what your business model is, but I know with mine the world has changed and I suspect in some ways yours has also.

I didn't stop caring about image quality, I just became apparent that more than extra megapixels is important to my art and livelihood.  Better put my clients began to request more than just extra megapixels.  They want a more nimble production that doesn't require 2 and 3  hour lighting set ups and 2,000 watts of strobe  to balance  a subject and a window scene.

They know that with expert post production and retouching finding the difference between 22mpx and 60mpx takes a jeweler's loupe and they also know that their intended viewers don't use a jeweler's loupe when they walk through Times Square or open up their favorite magazine.  In fact they know they're customer's  favorite magazine is now becoming a 72dpi web page.

These are very, very, very demanding times and for any photographer to move forward we have to offer more than we ever dreamed possible.  In fact I find these times almost a blessing at it forces all of us to get better, produce more, change our way of working.

There is not a paying client on this planet that understands why a photographer's expensive  camera has an lcd that is almost non viewable, when their daughters $200 P+S almost looks three dimensional and since most paying clients assume they are paying for the use of the equipment their understanding of anything that gets close to problematic or slow becomes less forgiving by the day.

We're not in the film days.   645 to 35mm may be very important to you but in reality to a client that is moving from printed in-store posters  to lcds, pdfs instead of 100lb glossy stock and can track 70% of their sales to the web, 240 megabyte oversharpend files is not important, especially if it requires another 2 hours of on set production to produce what is essentially the same results.

Medium format has moved miles since the first no lcd, tethered only systems, but in that time 35mm cameras have moved light years.   The things you request like better lcds, faster shooting rates, multiple focus points and more moveable iso is now a 35mm fact, not a medium format wish and today if your going to spend twice the price for ANYTHING you and your clients demand more than twice the RESULTS.

If Leaf or any medium format company had made a camera that was twice the 5d2, or twice the Sony or Nikon, if the AFI was twice as fast, twice as trouble free and offered twice the results, then they wouldn't have been searching for a buyer or in the position of being assimilated by a competitor.

Let's be realistic.  You and others have tried a new Leaf, or an HY6/AFI and many other medium format backs.   You gave it a glowing review but for some reason you didn't buy one, you bought a 5d2 instead.  Now do we understand why Leaf sold for $19.95 and the HY6, AFI, Rollei's fate is up in the air?

What this means for medium format or the photography industry in general I don't know, but I assume that once a client gets a final production that produces broadcast quality motion imagery along with double page quality stills, that will become the standard.  If the medium format companies can deliver this and more they'll be fine, if not they'll become more specialized, more marginalized.  

In fact my take on this is just the opposite of yours.  Critique or praise, I think all of us that make our living producing images want better equipment and that is the reason for posting.   Most of us want to get off the continual upgrade path, because we must value our resources not overspend hoping for something that is  promised to may or may not arrive.

But don't think for a moment any professional image maker wants to see any professional camera company go under.  Also I don't believe that people that critique medium format wants to move anyone to any camera system.  This is a place that the medium format reps and makers visit and a way for the users to give feedback, positive and negative and Ill bet you they all take notes.  

We want all of these companies to thrive because that means the equipment is so good it gives us more opportunity, not less.  

Wouldn't you love the video file of a RED, the medium format still quality of an Aptus or a Hasselblad, the ease, iso, lens choice and autofocus of a Nikon or Canon?    If a camera like this was remotely affordable, wouldn't you buy it today?

I don't think all the DSLRS are 100% there . . . yet.   I don't think high end video is exactly there yet, and feel the same with medium format.  If someone would combine the three, yes . . . then we are there, but at the end of the day, the person that really decides what equipment I use is me, though the camera I hold in my hand is a reflection of the person that makes the shot list.

Regardless of genre, I believe most professionals want a camera that is not limiting in any way.  That's the real motivator for writing a check.

You post a lot of images on this forum and I believe have a lot of fans, but if I was going to take your posts and images as a "buyers guide", I would come to the assumption that a used Aptus 22 and an RZ that today sells for about $6,000 total would probably produce any strobe lit still image  I needed.

A photographer that uses  third generation cameras and backs and is happy to stand pat can't be the intend market for a camera maker as they have to sell new equipment.  Maybe that's what worries the medium format companies.

Photographers did not change the rules of photography, the budgets, the client requests, the intended usage.  The market changed and that's where we are today.

http://tinyurl.com/lh6esw

JR

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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #319 on: June 27, 2009, 04:32:29 pm »

Very good points and 100% true.
I think 90% of the clients don't see the difference between a dslr from 500 us or a mf camera of 50k.
So true.

However somehow for me it's also what I like personally.
I'm indeed happy with what I have that's true but I also want improvements
red is amazing would love to be able to afford the 645 version.

I bought the 5dmkii because for what I do the mf setup I use is perfect I don't need 60mps.
But sometimes I do need speed and high iso.
And to be honest I love the video in the mkii.

In the real world however it's what pays the bills and reality is that a dslr will do that.
But again there is also the personal preference and for some people that's understandable (I think you understand) and for some only the economics count and for those maybe mf is not a good choice.  

I think I misunderstood gwhitf than, sorry.
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