Future of Kodak Sensors

[plinden]

In Thursday's Wall Street Journal an article about Kodak's business situation says "It will also limit investment in semiconductor image-sensors and seek a partner." This will certainly impact Phase One and Hasselblad product development.

Peter Linden

[Boris_Epix]

In Thursday's Wall Street Journal an article about Kodak's business situation says "It will also limit investment in semiconductor image-sensors and seek a partner." This will certainly impact Phase One and Hasselblad product development.

Peter Linden

PhaseOne P65+ has a Dalsa sensor.

Don't worry... there's always a way. You just need to find people that want to follow it.

[JeffVo]

I've never been a big fan of the rendering of Dalsa sensors (at least in the Leaf's implementations).  Some people rave over them, but I've never found them to my liking.  The 3/4 tone and shadow noise isn't so hot and long exposure isnt an option.  It remains to be seen if Phase can overcome these issues in the P65.  Losing Kodak could be another serious blow to MFD.....

[neil snape]

PhaseOne P65+ has a Dalsa sensor.

Don't worry... there's always a way. You just need to find people that want to follow it.

The H3 D60 is a Dalsa as well I think. It could toggle back again to Kodak with future chip designs.

[michael]

I've never been a big fan of the rendering of Dalsa sensors (at least in the Leaf's implementations).  Some people rave over them, but I've never found them to my liking.  The 3/4 tone and shadow noise isn't so hot and long exposure isnt an option.  It remains to be seen if Phase can overcome these issues in the P65.  Losing Kodak could be another serious blow to MFD.....

Jeff – interesting observation.

My own is that the differences are subtle, but definitely there, and they favour the Dalsa. In fact this difference was a topic of discussion on our ship last month where ten of us where comparing our experience with the P45 and P45+ (Kodak) with the new P65+. We all felt that there was definitely a different look to the Dalsa, and that we preferred it, though we would all have been hard pressed to quantify it. Maybe a bit more separation in deep tonalities and colour saturation.

Michael

[erick.boileau]

yes but without long exposure even at half price , or less, I am not interested at all

[Guy Mancuso]

Jeff – interesting observation.

My own is that the differences are subtle, but definitely there, and they favour the Dalsa. In fact this difference was a topic of discussion on our ship last month where ten of us where comparing our experience with the P45 and P45+ (Kodak) with the new P65+. We all felt that there was definitely a different look to the Dalsa, and that we preferred it, though we would all have been hard pressed to quantify it. Maybe a bit more separation in deep tonalities and colour saturation.

Michael

 I noticed a subtle difference last week in Moab against the P25 Plus and P65 Plus but we had a pre-production unit on hand but there is a subtle difference. At least on that unit and the one before . Michael I believe had a production unit so his assessment would be more accurate with a production unit but I do agree from what I have seen there is a subtle difference. I did like the colors pretty well last week against my P25 Plus, seemed warmer looking. The detail is certainly there no question about that. Here is sample from a P25 plus and the P65 Plus both WB

P65 Plus than P25 Plus. BTW I processed these in C1 4.6 not the latest version of 4.6.1 which I believe is more tuned for the P65 Plus. Also notice  about a 1/2 or more stop DR difference in favor of the P65 Plus. No question it has more than the P25 Plus and slightly more over the P45 Plus

[BJNY]

Which recorded the scene more faithfully?

[Guy Mancuso]

Billy the sky is more realistic in the P25 plus but again Kodak sensors from my past are more Kodachrome tuned in look at least to me. Now without the final firmware on the P65 Plus I may be at a disadvantage too and also C1 without the final tuning in 4.6.1 so Michael maybe better to answer this today. Hopefully I will get my hands on a production unit soon so the comparisons are more in line to the reality of the files. I will say this unit I had was far better than the unit I had 2 months ago which the color was very off so Phase has been working on getting all of this in line for final production with the firmware. Some things won't change and that is the detail from it which is extremely good. If you go big this has it for sure in that respect. It really is a nice back and the Sensor Plus technology is very interesting and for me a real bonus. I'm just not ready to move up but nice to see a real future in there products

[JeffVo]

Jeff – interesting observation.

My own is that the differences are subtle, but definitely there, and they favour the Dalsa. In fact this difference was a topic of discussion on our ship last month where ten of us where comparing our experience with the P45 and P45+ (Kodak) with the new P65+. We all felt that there was definitely a different look to the Dalsa, and that we preferred it, though we would all have been hard pressed to quantify it. Maybe a bit more separation in deep tonalities and colour saturation.

Michael

Michael

      Glad your finding the IQ to be better.  I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. The kodak chip in the comparison is of 2005 vintage. One would hope each generation would improve. Did you see any downside in The Dalsa Image compared to Kodak? I know many Phase users who are on the fence with this back, and for most it seems the unknowns of the Dalsa Chip as much or more than the price.  For some its like shooting with Kodak film for years and now going to Agfa.    I'm curious how the the 50mpx Kodak chip in the Hass will fare.  Thats the comparison I really yearn for.    I'm a bit surprised Phase hasn't used this chip, but I imagine they will or perhaps the 48mp Dalsa.  Although, unless they improve exposure times they may upset some loyalist for long exposure as someone above mentioned if they go all Dalsa. Yet, one thing Phase is great at is optimization.  Look at the same shot from a H39 and a P45+ and the P45+ has better noise characteristics not to mention longer exposure times with the same chip.  I look forward to seeing more examples/comparisons and how the Sesnsor + tech shakes out. -Jeff

[BJL]

In Thursday's Wall Street Journal an article about Kodak's business situation says "It will also limit investment in semiconductor image-sensors and seek a partner." This will certainly impact Phase One and Hasselblad product development.

Peter Linden

Rather suddenly, all three MF systems have Dalsa sensor options in the top-of-the-line models, through the Hasselblad and Phase One 60MP sensors, and the Leaf 56MP sensor for Hy6. And spec. sheets suggest that the new 6 micron cell design and improved micro-lens designs from Dalsa have an advantage over the latest generation 6 micron cell size sensors from Kodak. Of course, Kodak could leap-frog Dalsa again, but maybe the profitability of this small high-end sector is now deemed insufficient to justify current levels of investment.

On the other hand, maybe Kodak is referring to reducing other parts of its sensor efforts, like the CMOS sensors that it has been developing lately. Apparently no camera maker has taken up its offer to custom design large CMOS sensors.

[ndevlin]

As a non-Phase owner (but someone who peeped at a lot of P65 files on the Antarctica trip), I can attest that the images it produces are simply awesome (and I don't mean that in the "Like, awesome, dude!" way your teenager might say.

The differences in rendering, if any, are small enough that they should be easily correctible in post.  

For landscapes, any differences are immaterial in a way which might not be true in fashion/portrait work. It will be intersting to hear reports from those quarters.

The Big Yellow is still in decline....

- N.

ps. it's kind of cool to be able to buy a piece of consumer electronics that is partly made in Canada!