Topic: Dedicated B/W cameras (Read 8600 times)

teddillard · « **on:** January 04, 2009, 08:58:02 am »

I'm starting to do some research on camera specifically designed as B/W platforms, and have found nothing out there on the internets...

There's the Fuji IS-1, the infrared camera, which does shoot color but has been used as a basic platform for the IR B/W guys, there's the Sigma/Foveon camera, the SD14, which, back in pre-release mode was making some absolutely astounding B/W images (before they really got the color to be acceptable) and there's the Mega-Vision E-Series MonoChrome, which I can't even really tell if it's a real-live product or not.

It seems like this would be the kind of thing that would naturally spawn an on-line cult, but I got nothing. Is there something on LL I'm missing? Anybody have any interesting sites to share?

cgf · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2009, 10:18:35 am »

I have a vague long-term-memory of someone arranging MFDB's for black-and-white only... something to do with not needing the bayer-thingy etc... might have needed 10 or 20 people to make it viable (as phase had to arrange the imaging chips as a special order). Did I read it here on LL???

Hopefully this might prompt someone else who has more info for you... I do recall reading it, it sounded like a very specialised thing.

Sorry for my vague-ness but we're talking long-term read-it-once kindof thing from 2 or 3 years ago.

Cheers...
Fergus.

Kumar · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2009, 10:35:48 am »

Megavision E series Monochrome backs: http://www.mega-vision.com/products/Mono/Mono.htm

Kumar

teddillard · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2009, 10:41:32 am »

Quote from: Kumar

Megavision E series Monochrome backs: http://www.mega-vision.com/products/Mono/Mono.htm

Kumar

Right, thanks... I found that, I have an email out to Richard Chang to see if it's still current. (mentioned in OP)

mcbroomf · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2009, 09:33:12 am »

This is an interesting read, although it's only useful to show the potential of the format as this never a released product.

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/came...odak-760m.shtml

cgf · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2009, 10:09:08 am »

Found it - the vague memory was right.

God Bless Google, solver of all (internet) problems!

http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2008-07-blog....gitalMonochrome

And here is the original thing I read a while back: http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2007-07-blog....ochromeFollowup

Quote from: cgf

I have a vague long-term-memory of someone arranging MFDB's for black-and-white only... something to do with not needing the bayer-thingy etc... might have needed 10 or 20 people to make it viable (as phase had to arrange the imaging chips as a special order). Did I read it here on LL???

Hopefully this might prompt someone else who has more info for you... I do recall reading it, it sounded like a very specialised thing.

Sorry for my vague-ness but we're talking long-term read-it-once kindof thing from 2 or 3 years ago.

Cheers...
Fergus.

rickk · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2009, 11:47:24 am »

Just one more trade-off to consider: Although a single-channel sensor is very appealing from the point of view of image sharpness, you lose the ability to make some remarkable alterations in tonal values when RGB channels are converted through recent versions of Adobe Camera Raw or Convert to BW Pro.

Regards,

Rick

teddillard · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2009, 04:32:58 pm »

Quote from: rickk

Just one more trade-off to consider: Although a single-channel sensor is very appealing from the point of view of image sharpness, you lose the ability to make some remarkable alterations in tonal values when RGB channels are converted through recent versions of Adobe Camera Raw or Convert to BW Pro.

Regards,

Rick

right, that's what got me going on the Sigma, actually. Essentially the Foveon is a three-channel single pixel. The color crosstalk has always been an issue, but would be less critical if translated to B/W. You'd get enough color to make the alterations you're talking about, yet still it's a pixel-for-pixel sensor.

I wonder if anyone out there is shooting this thing like this...

teddillard · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2009, 04:34:50 pm »

Quote from: cgf

Found it - the vague memory was right.

God Bless Google, solver of all (internet) problems!

http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2008-07-blog....gitalMonochrome

And here is the original thing I read a while back: http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2007-07-blog....ochromeFollowup

woah, crap. thanks for that!
(ouch, 34K?)

teddillard · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2009, 04:37:01 pm »

Quote from: mcbroomf

This is an interesting read, although it's only useful to show the potential of the format as this never a released product.

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/came...odak-760m.shtml

wow that was painful. brought back all my kodak flashbacks. thanks, tho, I'd forgotten about the 760m

teddillard · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2009, 02:50:23 pm »

Did some testing with a Sigma (Foveon sensor). No advantage.

I also had forgotten how they claim 3x/pixel resolution (3 channels per pixel), so, for instance, the "14mp" DP1 looked like, well, a 4.6mp file, rather than comparable to the 10mp Canon G9 file.

bah. rubbish.

DavidP · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2009, 05:14:27 pm »

Quote from: teddillard

woah, crap. thanks for that!
(ouch, 34K?)

I wonder if the actually produced any of these, this article was quite a while ago

teddillard · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2009, 07:55:05 am »

COOL!

I just got this reply from Jim, at Bear Images re/the Phase Monochrome DB:

"Hello Ted,

We have started the production run on this new product which is working extremely well. I will be happy to provide you with some details as this is truly a unique product.

The first customers have received their backs and we will have full production available for new orders in about 45 days. We had to order a new batch of sensors from Kodak.

We are making the back for all of the major Medium Format Cameras (Mamiya 645AF/Phaseone Body, Hassleblad Classic, Hasselblad/Fuji and Contax) in addition to special cameras we have developed for scientific and arial imaging application.

I will try to pull together some tech specs and image product shot in the next few days if you would like.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards,

Jim

Jim Taskett
Bear Images Photographic, Inc."

I'm hoping to do an interview and find out more... stay tuned.

mcbroomf · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2009, 08:49:26 am »

This sounds fascinating Ted, thanks for the update.

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #14 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:49:48 am »

Would be interesting to use such a device with color filters to make color images. Sure it would put us back 100+ years in one respect but think of the resolution.

teddillard · « **Reply #15 on:** March 12, 2009, 07:50:28 am »

Quote from: DarkPenguin

Would be interesting to use such a device with color filters to make color images. Sure it would put us back 100+ years in one respect but think of the resolution.

Part of the testing I did for this book was with on-camera filtration of (color) digital cameras. I've read lots of claims about it, but never actually ran the tests, or explored the processing. All I'm going to say here (for now, until my editor gets done with it...), is that you oughta try it. The results, once you figure out how to process it, are quite interesting, and surprising!

JamesA · « **Reply #16 on:** March 12, 2009, 03:04:42 pm »

Quote from: teddillard

right, that's what got me going on the Sigma, actually. Essentially the Foveon is a three-channel single pixel. The color crosstalk has always been an issue, but would be less critical if translated to B/W. You'd get enough color to make the alterations you're talking about, yet still it's a pixel-for-pixel sensor.

I wonder if anyone out there is shooting this thing like this...

Foveon is a poor implementation of RGB imaging. True RBG, where three exposures are taken with a monochrome sensor through red, green and blue filters produces the most accurate colour you can get. Foveon has miles to go before it ever approaches that, or even Bayer results.

You know what is really odd? There are cameras out there with monochrome CCDs, but most seem to be used for video work in industrial and scientific fields.

teddillard · « **Reply #17 on:** March 12, 2009, 04:22:56 pm »

Quote from: JamesA

Foveon is a poor implementation of RGB imaging. True RBG, where three exposures are taken with a monochrome sensor through red, green and blue filters produces the most accurate colour you can get. Foveon has miles to go before it ever approaches that, or even Bayer results.

You know what is really odd? There are cameras out there with monochrome CCDs, but most seem to be used for video work in industrial and scientific fields.

Totally agree, on the RGB side. The "color crosstalk" is really bad, even from their published test results. The last time I gave it a shot, I just looked at the green cast in the skin tones on their PRODUCT BROCHURE! and gave up on it right there. My hope was that it would give enough decent color information to allow you, as a B/W, to do color filtration while giving you the resolution of the foveon chip. Sort of, the color is bad, but good enough for B/W.

I think what I forgot is, it still needs to be processed, and that's where they lose any advantages.

Guillermo Luijk · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2009, 12:03:59 pm »

A dedicated B&W sensor was discused in this thread. Some considerations were made about the advantages of B&W vs Bayer sensor, so as about the advantages of B&W vs half-mosaic HDR B&W sensor.

BR

teddillard · « **Reply #19 on:** March 14, 2009, 08:06:37 am »

Quote from: GLuijk

A dedicated B&W sensor was discused in this thread. Some considerations were made about the advantages of B&W vs Bayer sensor, so as about the advantages of B&W vs half-mosaic HDR B&W sensor.

BR

perfect, thanks... exactly what I was looking for.

Author Topic: Dedicated B/W cameras (Read 8600 times)

DarkPenguin