Topic: MFD or Canon 5D MkII? (Read 15397 times)

Alex MacPherson · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2008, 03:00:52 pm »

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Can you live with the 5DII's flash sync of only 1/200?
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I am living with it now. I shoot a Canon 5D as my current main camera.

I have never found it slow for the type of shooting I do. In fact, I have never really found my Mamiya AFDII slow when I shoot with it. I am a methodical shooter.

I am looking to make the jump to pro... pro meaning getting some work doing some advertising work in fashion.

I am concerned that if I can't get suitably large images for the client, I might not get the job.

I know there is always renting, but I don't want to learn how to use the tool when the meter is running and I have a zillion other things to think about.

I was thinking of selling both my AFDII and 5D and getting a Phase One Camera...or Hasselblad H3D-39.

Snook · « **Reply #21 on:** September 27, 2008, 03:24:44 pm »

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I am living with it now. I shoot a Canon 5D as my current main camera.

I have never found it slow for the type of shooting I do. In fact, I have never really found my Mamiya AFDII slow when I shoot with it. I am a methodical shooter.

I am looking to make the jump to pro... pro meaning getting some work doing some advertising work in fashion.

I am concerned that if I can't get suitably large images for the client, I might not get the job.

I know there is always renting, but I don't want to learn how to use the tool when the meter is running and I have a zillion other things to think about.

I was thinking of selling both my AFDII and 5D and getting a Phase One Camera...or Hasselblad H3D-39.
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You know That Annie Lebowitz shoots with a 1DsMII and probably MIII now a days right?
Your client is going to pick you for your experience not if you can give them a huge file that looks like crap?

Snook

TMARK · « **Reply #22 on:** September 27, 2008, 03:25:30 pm »

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I am living with it now. I shoot a Canon 5D as my current main camera.
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How can any one produce any work with a 1/200 sync?! I mean good gawd! I wouldn't let a high school photo class use any camera that didn't sync at 1/500. I mean, for snap shots, maybe, but for any serious WERK? come on!

In all seriousness, I don't even sync my Canons over 1/125, just to play it safe. I control light in the studio with negative fill, grids, cinefoil, flags, floppies, cutters, scrims blah blah blah. Its only outside in bright light that its an issue. Either ND filters or renting something that syncs higher than 1/250 works just fine. I use the 1/4000 of an FP shutter way more than any high speed sync.

In regards to the rest of your post, you rent and hire a tech to do the shoot with you. In fact, rent from the tech. The tech will handle everything related to the digital camera. He or she will have a backup back. He or she will set up the camera. Request an AFd2 because you have one and are already familier with it.

Image size is the last thing anyone is concerned about.

If you have $18k in pocket that just must be spent, produce some new work, travel, etc.

TMARK · « **Reply #23 on:** September 27, 2008, 04:10:01 pm »

What John said. Yes. Absolutely.

I like JR's stuff.

The barriers that we meet in producing images are all internal. All mental. After buying a back, rather than renting as I had happily been doing, I spent more time dealing with gear that stood in the way of whatever I was trying to do rather than just shooting. I'm shooting lots 'o' film. Its funny, the MF cameras really work well with film. Everything bad about the Mamiya AFd and RZ with a digital back vanishes once a roll of 220 is loaded.

And Ms. Sweet Fashion Photography, I hope you are shooting many, many editorials in top mags to get fashion advertising for large clients. If you are, shoot hat 5D or 5d2 until the rubber coating wears off revealing its metal frame. I mean it. A much better investment than buying an MFDB is to go on look sees in markets where you want to work. Call up ID and Dazed and Confused on L'Official and French and show your book. While there, shoot an editorial, shoot some tests, shoot shoot shoot. I guarantee you that no one will ask how many megapixels your camera can capture.

Schewe · « **Reply #24 on:** September 27, 2008, 04:35:15 pm »

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I am concerned that if I can't get suitably large images for the client, I might not get the job.
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Clients choose photographers based on the quality of the images, not the image quality. Which means that style, composition and aesthetics are what's important, not the MP of the camera.

You really, really need to get a firm understanding on what this means, conceptually.

Otherwise you will be doomed to always thinking it's your camera not your talent that has value.

Screw the camera, what do "normal people" think of the images? Are they evocative? Sensual? Commanding? Do the images you produce inspire? Normal people (and I put clients in that camp) are far less concerned about the camera or lens or lighting equipment you are using and are more concerned about what you can create with what you do have.

Photographers also have a tendency to to also think that how difficult an image is to produce somehow factors into the relative value of an image. Perhaps to a tiny degree but again, it's not how hard you had to work to get the shot but what the shot looks like when you're done. That's what has value...it's all about the image.

Saša D. Karić · « **Reply #25 on:** September 27, 2008, 04:38:10 pm »

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You know That Annie Lebowitz shoots with a 1DsMII and probably MIII now a days right?
Your client is going to pick you for your experience not if you can give them a huge file that looks like crap?

Snook
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TRUE!

Let's just not forget that Annie has endorsement deals with Profoto and Canon!!!

Another very important step is obviously post-processing of her files via Box Studios, Pascal Dangin so practically she can shoot with pretty much any camera Nikon, Canon, Leica, MF and the end result will look 100%

Now, the problem is when I have to send my work to Box Studios I have to wait a while and she doesn't.

Well, is there a better camera that can do a better job shooting Fashion/People than 1Ds MkII/III? short answer YES

Am I happy with MF? YES

Would I ever cry if there was no MF? NO, but that's just me!

I personally consider investment in lighting equipment as more valuable than following Camera/Lenses/Pixel Race.... trend!!!

TMARK · « **Reply #26 on:** September 27, 2008, 04:47:05 pm »

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I personally consider investment in lighting equipment as more valuable than following Camera/Lenses/Pixel Race.... trend!!!
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Bingo.

The trick to Box is having the PE or agency take them for retouch. Much more responsive to Saatchi than to lowly little me.

lisa_r · « **Reply #27 on:** September 27, 2008, 05:30:19 pm »

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Phase files seem really over-sharp at defaults. It all starts to look like E100GX at a certain point: too clean, too sharp too saturated.
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I agree that a lot of what I see coming out of the backs looks oversharpened and thus unreal. A lot of it looks "Digital."

I find it interesting that so much behind the scenes footage of Annie shows up, convincing people that the you need not invest further than the Canons. Hey if she can shoot LV, Disney, AMEX, etc with these things and zoom lenses, then put your wallet away, son. Invest it traveling, buying pages in Le Book, schmoozing potential clients, and what not. I mean, it really doesn't get any bigger than what she is doing, does it?

And the batteries in those new Canons? I took my 1Ds3 to Paris last year and shot for a week without charging it. This 5D2 is really going to be something, considering it's price and portable size. And Chuck Westfall recently said that it will have 2-4 stops better noise performance than the already excellent 1Ds3. WOW.

By the way, I don't know if any of you have used the Highlight Tone Priority option, but I have been shooting editorial and advertising using it, and it really works great. It ads the subtlest noise to the file (which actually looks really nice, IMO) but it gives an effective 1 stop increase in DR when using DPP. I know many people poo-poo'd this feature when it came out, because they were doing tests and examining the files at 300% zoom, but in practive and in print, it looks amazing and saves a ton of post production time. IMO.

And like someone here said, no one in the studio ever asks me about my number of megapixels. That seems to be a thing of the past.

tho_mas · « **Reply #28 on:** September 27, 2008, 05:30:20 pm »

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Quote
(Frank Doorhof @ Sep 27 2008, 01:11 PM)
HOWEVER, I'm someone who himself wants more and better quality.
For PURE commercial benefits a DSLR is the best choice.
If you are like me absolute passionate about your photography and you can afford a MF system I don't see problems with my personal points
http://accidentalsexiness.wordpress.com/20...nnie-leibovitz/[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[a href=\"http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425679679/706/andreas-gursky-bahrain-i.html]http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425679679/70...-bahrain-i.html[/url]
http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425679674/70...xenstopp-i.html
http://www.moma.org/exhibitions/2007/jeffwall/
...
...
...

heinrichvoelkel · « **Reply #29 on:** September 27, 2008, 05:48:37 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas,Sep 27 2008, 10:30 PM

http://accidentalsexiness.wordpress.com/20...nnie-leibovitz/[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[a href=\"http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425679679/706/andreas-gursky-bahrain-i.html]http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425679679/70...-bahrain-i.html[/url]
http://www.artnet.com/artwork/425679674/70...xenstopp-i.html
http://www.moma.org/exhibitions/2007/jeffwall/
...
...
...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225024\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

So what is your point...we're talking business and not art....

Henri Cartier B. used 24x36mm to become immortal...Capa as well...Ansel Adams did not...different time and different field

Frank Doorhof · « **Reply #30 on:** September 27, 2008, 05:52:38 pm »

Let's make one point clear (because I think people missunderstand me).....

I don't think you can only shoot fashion or whatever with a MF system (I never said so), what I did mean to say is that although every client out there would probarbly be happy with the file quality from a 1DsIII or 5DII it was for me a PERSONAL preference to go for the MF system.
Especially when working on location with strobes the benefits are great for me (fitting my style).
Of course I can shoot a 85mm 1.2 wide open, but add strobes and you will need to use ND filters.

With the MF you can go up in sync speed or go down in ISO (25 on the Aptus I'm using now) and even if that is not possible I still have less DOF on the same aperture as with a DSLR.

UNLESS you don't want that.
For me outside I love to shoot with a shallow DOF.

Is it economical wise ?
Don't think so for most of the jobs.
Did it get me more customers ?
hard to say, I do know some customers choose me because they know I'm very passionate about my work and they also know I use the best equiptment I can afford, so maybe yes.
Don't know what would happen if I would have kept shooting with a 5D or 1DsIII........

There will be people saying that MF is the only choice, I'm not one of them (although I will point out the differences), I still own a DSLR and ordered the 5DII, but when it counts and the situation fits the MF I will shoot with MF.

Even worse, even on holiday I take my normal "snaps" with the MF system, the 645AFD/III is portable enough for me, and when I compare the 5D shots to the Aptus files the dynamic range issue is a big one (I shoot alot during the day of course during holidays).
But again, that's me......... I just love the system and the quality of the files and am willing to pay some sacrifices for that in handling and money.

tho_mas · « **Reply #31 on:** September 27, 2008, 05:52:44 pm »

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So what is your point...we're talking business and not art....[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I felt that Annie L. was choosen as an example that a 1Ds XY is fine for very high demands and/or art. It is! But she's not the sole artist on this planet (though a great one).

Raphael · « **Reply #32 on:** September 27, 2008, 06:03:16 pm »

Henri Cartier B once said :" there are photographers, and there are camera owners.."

I try to think about it every so often.

R.

rainer_v · « **Reply #33 on:** September 27, 2008, 06:03:35 pm »

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I felt that Annie L. was choosen as an example that a 1Ds XY is fine for very high demands and/or art. It is! But she's not the sole artist on this planet (though a great one).
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i am sure annie would be great too with a mf back (as well as with a g9).
i am sure gursky would make 3meter prints as well with a 5d ( also with a g9 ...) ,
maybe stitching some frames more as long as possible.
wall would look fantastic with a grainy iso800 g9 shot.

canmiya · « **Reply #34 on:** September 27, 2008, 06:07:19 pm »

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I am living with it now. I shoot a Canon 5D as my current main camera.

I have never found it slow for the type of shooting I do. In fact, I have never really found my Mamiya AFDII slow when I shoot with it. I am a methodical shooter.

I am looking to make the jump to pro... pro meaning getting some work doing some advertising work in fashion.

I am concerned that if I can't get suitably large images for the client, I might not get the job.

I know there is always renting, but I don't want to learn how to use the tool when the meter is running and I have a zillion other things to think about.

I was thinking of selling both my AFDII and 5D and getting a Phase One Camera...or Hasselblad H3D-39.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224984\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i would worry more about the quality of the portfolio i am showing them, than the size of the file they may ultimately want....you also need to understand the limitations of the cameras/systems you are considering vs. what you have and your style.......to be perfectly frank, if i had had the 1ds3 before i bought my leaf back, i would have had to think longer and a lot harder about buying the back....but i will also add that image size or impressing clients was not a factor in the decision to buy a back...
i encourage people to rent before buying a back or borrow one from a friend before buying....it is easier to spend a few hundred dollars in rental fees and decide this is not what you thought than to spend $20,000 plus and come to a similar conclusion...the other benefit of renting when you have a job, is the cost can be legitimately passed on to your client...
i would also not recommend that you sell two cameras to purchase one....it may prove to be placing too many eggs in one basket....

RobertJ · « **Reply #35 on:** September 27, 2008, 06:09:07 pm »

Don't buy anything.

There's some sh!t going down pretty soon, by the end of the year. RED is announcing the "specs" of their DSMC by the end of 2008, and Nikon might have a new product or two announced in November. Maybe Canon with something new in February.

I'm looking for a big jump from my current cameras. As nice as the 5DII looks, I'm still waiting for something a little more special. Plus, I'm sure if I put myself on a 5DII waiting list, I won't get the damn thing until the middle of 2009!

I'm not buying a damn thing. Plus I still make money with the Canon 20D. Isn't that hilarious?... no.

tho_mas · « **Reply #36 on:** September 27, 2008, 06:09:28 pm »

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i am sure annie would be great too with a mf back (as well as with a g9).
i am sure gursky would make 3meter prints as well with a 5d ( also with a g9 ...) ,
maybe stitching some frames more as long as possible.
wall would look fantastic with a grainy iso800 g9 shot also.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225032\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, yes!
It was not me who answered Frank commentless with a link to Annie L. They are all using whatever they use for some individual reason. But A 1DsXY is not the answer to all questions. That simple.

rainer_v · « **Reply #37 on:** September 27, 2008, 06:16:21 pm »

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Don't buy anything.

There's some sh!t going down pretty soon, by the end of the year. RED is announcing the "specs" of their DSMC by the end of 2008, and Nikon might have a new product or two announced in November. Maybe Canon with something new in February.

I'm looking for a big jump from my current cameras. As nice as the 5DII looks, I'm still waiting for something a little more special. Plus, I'm sure if I put myself on a 5DII waiting list, I won't get the damn thing until the middle of 2009!

I'm not buying a damn thing. Plus I still make money with the Canon 20D. Isn't that hilarious?... no.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

this waiting thing is sounding familiar to me. as long i am visiting the internet
for informing me about digital always was something great around the corner,
and always it was true, but never came the big revolution which changed everything
from one moment to the next. problem is that one has to work usually now , not later.
about the "special" thing ... :
no offense here,- but the most special thing in ones work might be how s.o. is shooting
and also later treating the shots, this is not the camera. even if it will be a very very
special camera, it wont make 1 special shot as long you dont do it. in the best case
it can make some spectacular things ( as a 360 degr. roundshot or a fisheye can do ),
but even this
wont be interesting if the artist isnt .

Alex MacPherson · « **Reply #38 on:** September 27, 2008, 06:58:12 pm »

Thanks for all the good replies. Especially from Frank

I am definitely not a gear head... believe me. I only bought my 5D about 6 months ago when it got to be really cheap.

I am not the type of photographer who walks around with a camera all the time. I have tried that and it bores me. My real love is deliberately constructing an image. That is where my love for Medium Format comes from. I really do love film. Perhaps I should stick with that for the time being and renting MFD if required.

The most important part of photography to me is the lighting. Perhaps I should put my money towards that end of it.

Getting notice in the fashion world is very difficult. I am just trying to give myself an edge... perhaps the anti-digital route is one way

Juanito · « **Reply #39 on:** September 27, 2008, 07:07:58 pm »

For what it's worth, if you look at the Annie photo shoot videos on Vanity Fair, you'll see that she uses a Mamiya RZ for a lot of the shots. I think she goes back and forth between the two.

I shoot MFDB because it helps me bring my vision of the world to life. I don't use it for everything and I'm happy to pick up small format when ever I need to. A crappy concept shot in focus, with lots of megapixels and expensive lighting is gonna result in a crappy photo. The true value in photography lies in the idea. That's the most important thing.

I think we're at the point where you can choose any format and the client will be happy. The playing field has become equalized to a point - we all have the equipment - so the difference is all about the style and ideas behind the work.

Of course, if you don't have any good ideas or a defining style, shoot film, Kodak now includes a scratch off in the box that has all the good ideas you'll need. It's sort of like the prize in the bottom of the Cracker Jacks.

John

Author Topic: MFD or Canon 5D MkII? (Read 15397 times)

Snook

lisa_r