Capture ONE Baffles Me

[Mort54]

I'm on one of my periodic quests to try Capture ONE "one more time" to see why people keep claiming it's so much better for Phase MFDBs. I have a P45+ and want to get the most out of its files. I have to admit that every time I try Capture ONE, I'm left totally baffled and shaking my head, and I gratefully go back to LR and CS3, where everything makes sense and my images look nice. Anyway, I've just installed 4.1.1 (up from 4.0.1, which I had been using previously), and my reaction so far is the same as all previous times I've evaluated it. I have LR and PS CS3 and NX2 to compare C1 against. So I'm thinking, maybe I'm missing something - perhaps my settings aren't right (well, my C1 settings at least, not my "personal" settings :-)

One thing that always confuses me is how the heck does import work. I click on the import button, navigate to the files I want to import, click import, time passes, and nothing seems to happen. My browser stays empty. My viewer stays empty. As far as I can remember, every version of C1 has been weird on the issue of importing. Why is something as basic as viewing your images SO unbelievably complicated? As with all the times before, I finally "discovered" that if I click on the folder icon in the top right toolbar, I get a folder list. Yeahhh. I can see my images. All of my images show in the folder list - not just the images I imported earlier. So if I have access to all my images in this way - even those I haven't imported - what the heck is importing good for?

The next thing that confuses me is white balance. C1 seems to think that daylight sunny is 4300 kelvin. Huh? Since when? Every other app I've ever used, and everything I've ever read, indicates daylight sunny WB is somewhere in the 5100 to 5400 kelvin range. What am I missing?

Then there's the ICC profile. I see a very tiny difference on my calibrated monitor between the various ICC profile selections. I guess I was expecting something more dramatic when selecting between sunny and tungsten, for example. I don't understand how the WB selection and the ICC profile interact. Why do I need to select an ICC profile when I've already selected a WB? Shouldn't C1 select the right profile based on my WB setting? Do I need to make appropriate selections in both categories? And if so, where's the flourescent ICC profile?

The curves selection makes sense, but there's very little difference between selections, and as a result seem almost worthless (except for the linear response selection, which has a dramatic impact on what I see on screen). Can we create our own curves and save them for later use? Right now, the curves selection seems almost worthless.

I don't understand why all the editing tools can't simply exist within the quick edit pane. Why have all the other selections, with their own panes. There's no reason to spread things out, and to duplicate the same tools elsewhere. What a pain.

And finally, I still don't see any substantial improvement in raw conversion quality over LR or ACR. I see subtle differences, but neither is better or worse, just different. What am I missing here?

I'm honestly trying to understand the strengths of C1, but so far have been unable to find any. I'm not trying to dump on C1 here - just trying to understand what I'm missing. So many talented people on this forum swear by C1, so I obviously must be the one who's missing something.

I'm not sure what I'm expecting out of this post, other than to vent a little steam over yet another frustrating session trying to understand why I should be using C1 with my P45+.

Mort.

[gwhitf]

You sound like about fifty other people, (myself included), that have had the same initial impressions. All I can say is, there is this weird thing, where you have to "come back to it" about fifteen times, but then on the sixteenth time, the light bulb goes off above your head, and you start to really get it.

[Kitty]

100% agree with John. Well explain. File develop from C1 for me is better than LR/ACR.
YMMV.

kitty

[SecondFocus]

....there is this weird thing, where you have to "come back to it" about fifteen times, but then on the sixteenth time, the light bulb goes off above your head....
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I pretty much agree with that. I had tried the trial version but within the trial time, I didn't get it either. But I kept thinking that there must be something to it so I bought it. After working with it some more on files from a Canon 5D and then a Phase P45+ I really started to get the feel for it and find the files very superior.

[Snook]

CO 4.1.1 is hugely different from 3.7.8 and LR/ACR. Personally I liked 3.7.x. I don't care for version 4 and have stopped using it all together.

For importing, use the browser and double click a folder to view contents. Or better yet in Finder on Mac at least drag the folder to CO app icon and it will show those files.

Not all white balance is created equal. There is no international standards for digital white balance as there was for film filters and lighting. Why, I don't know. I guess the best approach is to getting the most pleasing white balance regardless of actual numbers. You generally can't match WB numbers from any two unrelated raw apps.

The ICC canned profiles are not for monstrous differences but subtle changes in maybe shadow detail, contrast boost, saturation, etc. The rest is up to you. They are just giving you a good starting point.

My understanding is that the pro version out in 2057 will allow you to customize what you want in the quick pane.

In 3.7.8, curve options had very noticeable differences in the file contrast. I can't speak for version 4. I am not giving the time to it anymore.

I used Capture One version 3 through all it's updates and loved it. I used it for four years more than any other raw app for Canon files. It made Canon files sing. I loved the structure of pre-created folders that maintained organization, which is gone in version 4.

The big issue is that Aperture and Lightroom both changed the ball game. Capture One V4 is not playing in the new league, although CO 3.7.8 is still quite strong because you know exactly what it does and doesn't do. V4 non pro isn't all that much enjoyable to use. It's very cluttered with tiny icons which mean nothing to me. Just give me words what each tab does. 3.7.8 has fewer tabs and as a result is just easier to remember. V4 tabs are more a hindrance that help.

I do believe though, that for Phase files, Capture One is THE best image quality option. Lightroom is much easier to use though and has an expanded field of tools.
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John hit all the major points.
I have been also using C-1 for about 7-8 years.
I also dislike C-1 4 and refuse to use it.. did want to learn it. the file structure stinks.
with 3.7.8 I usually shoot tethered but when I do final conversion I just make a new session and just drop the folder with the raws in the window under process etc...
Then if you click on your folder they will load. I click on the folder then click on the little toothed disc at the bottom to make the folder with raws the process folder also. so everything goes in there and it is easy to access.
Really quite easy.
C-1 makes the Best conversion in my mind. I started fooling around with Lightroom but mainly for it's cool presets and shadow and highlights etc...
But in the end I always do my raw's in C-1 and then if I want to put some wierd effect I go to lightroom but usually just work in PSCS3.

I am not really organized and do not like being committed to libraries and structures..
I like to have 2X RAW back-ups and then convert them when I want.
I don't like to be locked in to anything or not knowing if it is saved or backed up through a program. I prefer to be manual.
In any case C-1 is not made to fancy, atleast the 3.7.8 was just a great Raw converter and then  they tried to follow lightroom or aperture with the new 4.0 interface which I do not like really.
If you look through it though it is really the same just different icons and some xtras..
I could never get through the file system and just like the drop action of 3.7.8.
If 4.0 pro EVER?? comes out I might try it again... but only then..


Snook

[TMARK]

I love C1 4.  I messed with it for about a week before it made sense and now its intuitive. If it had all of the Pro features from 3.78 and the HSL box from LR I would be very, very happy.

[Henry Goh]

I love C1 4.  I messed with it for about a week before it made sense and now its intuitive. If it had all of the Pro features from 3.78 and the HSL box from LR I would be very, very happy.
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Could be the Pro version is coming out when the new Phaseone web site comes online...I'm hoping

[narikin]

agree with most of above.

the key is: if a convenient one-stop fast workflow with 95% of the quality is your thing, you are better of with Lightroom etc.

if you have time to work slower, in exchange for 100% quality from your images (Phase or Canon) and still some Photoshop work after, then I too feel C1 gives simply the best raw conversion results, bar none.

I'm in the second camp, but appreciate others have needs and workflow requirements that require the other approach. In fact I'd use it myself for regular jobs.

one small other point is C1 3.x does not utilise all processors on windows multi core machines, so its slower.  4.x does use all 4 cores on my quad core workstation, so its quicker. Mac may be different, of course. That might matter on big jobs and/or as files get bigger (P65+!)

[Doug Peterson]

Like any software, knowing the tricks makes the workflow easier. On our website we have a list of Capture One 4.X Tips and Tricks .

Think of a graph of a light source with color on the X-axis and intensity on the Y-axis. White balance corrects the average mid-point of the distribution of color in the light by shifting the curve left or right. ICC profiles correct for slight variations (peaks and valleys) within the distribution of color. Most of the time this will be subtle.

In addition C1 Pro (both the current 3.X pro and the upcoming 4.X pro) has a color editor which allows direct editing of the ICC profile. This allows you to create a specific profile based on specific lighting situations or specifically desired looks. This is like creating a set of color-editing layers in photoshop, but 1) is applied in raw 2) can be applied instantly upon capture or copied to hundreds of already captured images in seconds.

One more ICC profile tip: the "easy-black" and "easy-gray" profiles are very useful. They take lightly saturated colors and push them towards neutral while leaving strongly saturated colors alone. This is great for a variety of applications. At our location some of our interior/architectural guys use "easy-gray" for removal of slight variation in "white" walls (e.g. slightly different paint or cast from light bouncing off of non-white walls) to leave the image cleaner.

Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

[Paul2660]

Hi Mort,

One thing I continue to notice with Capture 4.1 (not 3.7. is that all my imports are seen as flash for the WB, I always set the camera to daylight.  I have not gotten an answer as to why this happens.  

Paul C

[Paul2660]

John, is it only 2057?  

Love it.

Paul C

[gwhitf]

One more ICC profile tip: the "easy-black" and "easy-gray" profiles are very useful. They take lightly saturated colors and push them towards neutral while leaving strongly saturated colors alone. This is great for a variety of applications. At our location some of our interior/architectural guys use "easy-gray" for removal of slight variation in "white" walls (e.g. slightly different paint or cast from light bouncing off of non-white walls) to leave the image cleaner.
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Honestly, I found the most useful ICC profile for the P30, P21, and P45, to be buried I think in that folder called "Others", and it's called "Phase One No Color Correction" or something like that. A friend told me about it. It solved all kinds of issues with color. I always started with that, and then salted to taste. Especially useful with skin.

Portrait, Flash, and all those other attached profiles just seemed oversaturated, and not good with skin. Too much red buildup around the eyes and nose.

I also used that Color Editor too, starting with NCC, and then reduced selective Red even further. I created many skin profiles that way.

[Mort54]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. Obviously I was a tad frustrated when I wrote that last night. This morning, after a cup of tea, I'm feeling more forgiving :-)

Part of the issue is clearly familiarity. I know LR and CS3 inside and out and I'm very comfortable in that environment. I don't use C1 often enough to get the most out of it, I'm sure. However, this attempt at getting competent with C1 was probably only my fourteenth serious attempt, so according to everyone here, my lightbulb isn't due to go off until I take two more shots at it.

I do like the way C1 handles reds in my Nikon files - definitely better than LR or ACR or Aperture. Maybe even on a par with, or slightly better than, Nikon's own NX2 application (tho NX2 has so many other flaws...).

By the way, it's not that I don't get "good" results out of C1 on my P45+ files - it's just that once I've done my initial WB and color tweaks on both C1 and LR, I can't see any difference in the resulting images. Sharpness and tonal depth looks the same to me.

Doug, I will spend some time with the C1 tips and tricks you linked to. Thanks.

Mort.

P.S. In fairness to C1, it is the only app (as far as I know) that lets you shoot a Phase back tethered. That's not important to me, since I only use my P45+ for landscape work, but for many here, tethering is obviously crucial. Also, the soon-to-be-available lens corrections will clearly be something no other app does, so I could see this being an extremely valuable feature for me when it's available.

[Mitchell Baum]

Capture One baffles me, too, completely!

I've given up. Importing, and all the different files flying around was beyond me. I couldn't get support from the company, and the final straw was once I changed my email address, the company no longer acknowledged I'd paid big bucks for their software.

I'm aware that the limitation is mine, but life is too short.

Best,

Mitchell

[ericisaac]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. Obviously I was a tad frustrated when I wrote that last night. This morning, after a cup of tea, I'm feeling more forgiving :-)

Part of the issue is clearly familiarity. I know LR and CS3 inside and out and I'm very comfortable in that environment. I don't use C1 often enough to get the most out of it, I'm sure. However, this attempt at getting competent with C1 was probably only my fourteenth serious attempt, so according to everyone here, my lightbulb isn't due to go off until I take two more shots at it.

I do like the way C1 handles reds in my Nikon files - definitely better than LR or ACR or Aperture. Maybe even on a par with, or slightly better than, Nikon's own NX2 application (tho NX2 has so many other flaws...).

By the way, it's not that I don't get "good" results out of C1 on my P45+ files - it's just that once I've done my initial WB and color tweaks on both C1 and LR, I can't see any difference in the resulting images. Sharpness and tonal depth looks the same to me.

Doug, I will spend some time with the C1 tips and tricks you linked to. Thanks.

Mort.

P.S. In fairness to C1, it is the only app (as far as I know) that lets you shoot a Phase back tethered. That's not important to me, since I only use my P45+ for landscape work, but for many here, tethering is obviously crucial. Also, the soon-to-be-available lens corrections will clearly be something no other app does, so I could see this being an extremely valuable feature for me when it's available.
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The rumor is C1 4.2 Pro will be out in September. I tend to think that we wont' see it until the unveil of the P65+ with those shipping sometime in December...2009. This is just the way of Phase One. While I think it is good to familarize yourself with the new software because one day it (or some variation of it) will become the new standard, I find it completely useless and a gigantic 2 steps back for Phase. If you are on a mac you should go back to 3.7.x. I think it is a great piece of software that helped Phase stand apart from all the other software out there that was either two clunky or too simple.

[Doug Peterson]

Why not contact a local dealer to receive some training or attend a seminar? Anyone in the Miami or Atlanta area are welcome to arrange a one on one training session on Capture One. We also have seminars about once a month. The seminars are free and include beer and pizza :-). As it happens our next seminar in Miami is tomorrow night.

We've also talked in the past about paid one-on-one screen-sharing training classes for those who couldn't make it to our locations. Any comments from you all on that idea would be very welcome indeed.

For reference Capture One is the only program with which you can tether a P1 digital back.

As for comparisons of resolution and sharpness, check out our 2008 Raw Developer comparison to avoid doing the tedious work yourself . Granted we compared defaults, and every program can benefit from tweaking noise reduction / sharpness etc (it was simply not practical to compare multiple settings from multiple products), but it gives a fair (I think) assessment of where the strengths and weaknesses of each product are.

Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio

[Mitchell Baum]

For me, the nearest local dealer is probably Boston, 5 hours away. !:^)

Why not contact a local dealer to receive some training or attend a seminar? Anyone in the Miami or Atlanta area are welcome to arrange a one on one training session on Capture One. We also have seminars about once a month. The seminars are free and include beer and pizza :-). As it happens our next seminar in Miami is tomorrow night.

We've also talked in the past about paid one-on-one screen-sharing training classes for those who couldn't make it to our locations. Any comments from you all on that idea would be very welcome indeed.

For reference Capture One is the only program with which you can tether a P1 digital back.

As for comparisons of resolution and sharpness, check out our 2008 Raw Developer comparison to avoid doing the tedious work yourself . Granted we compared defaults, and every program can benefit from tweaking noise reduction / sharpness etc (it was simply not practical to compare multiple settings from multiple products), but it gives a fair (I think) assessment of where the strengths and weaknesses of each product are.

Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio
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[tho_mas]

Why not contact a local dealer to receive some training or attend a seminar? Anyone in the Miami or Atlanta area are welcome to arrange a one on one training session on Capture One. We also have seminars about once a month. The seminars are free and include beer and pizza :-).

It's a great offer and sounds interessting.
But finally there is not that much to learn if C1V3x was used before.
There is no way to learn how to change the folder structure - because it's unchangeable. The central cache thing was discussed extensively on the Phase Forum.

I think there are some very good improvements as the highlight recovery. It works nearly without halos or other artefacts. Noise reduction and sharpening is now more sophisitcated. Too, I like the mouse wheel functionality. Beside this IQ and the mature color management are the two strongest arguments pro C1.
The interface design is much to dark for me personally if I sit in front of the screen a long time (pro will have user programmable interface - I strongly hope including the brightness of the tools, otherwise I will definitely stay with 3.7.. But this might be quite individual.
What I do not understand and meanwhile really makes me angry: there are too much small bugs or things the programmers forgot to sort out. On my 24'' screen it's impossible to see the entire preview (size "to fit") of my P45 files sharp (or at least nearly sharp). They are that soft ... it's impossible to judge about the image. Scaling sizes "to fit" is risible. Does anyone like to adjust an image with the tools and the browser directly next to the image? Me not - I want a neutral frame around the image. Impossible in C1 V4 as scaling size of 12.5% is not fixed. And this is obviously not that extraordinary complicated to code. Reported up from the first beta.
C1 (V3 too) does not support AdobeCMM. But if AdobeCMM is installed on your system a conversion to all profiles with the tag "ADBE" in the header leads to data clutter. Well, maybe not that important. On the other hand not very laudable for a "professional" software.
I'm sure they will fix all this... but when? I'm not one of those guys who always want everything within shortest time. Not at all. But it would be fine when bugs get fixed sometime...