Fine Art Photo Black Papers Without OBAs

[johncustodio]

As it turns out, I have samples of all the papers you mentioned in my lab as of last week. Here's a run down on OBA content based on Black light evaluation.

Crane Museo Silver Rag - none

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl ( I assume you mean Fineart Pearl) - Moderate level OBA concentration in ink receptor coating, moderate in paper base

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag (in case you meant this product, but it is a matte fineart paper, doesn't emulate photo fiber base)- none in ink receptor coating, high in paper base,

Hahnemuhle Fineart Baryta - moderately high in ink receptor coating and in paper base

Ilford Gold Fiber Silk -  none in ink receptor coating, high level in paper base, low in anti curl layer (but may be "show thru" from base).

Harmon AI Gloss - low in ink receptor coating, moderate in paper base, low in anti curl layer

Bottom line: a "yes" or "no" answer to the question "does it contain OBAs" is not easy. Manufacturers put different concentration levels in different coating layers and concentration and location influence the extent of the OBA "problem". This subject is of great interest to me because of the current concerns about OBA presence and image permanence. My light fade studies so far have not statistically shown a difference between fade resistance of different manufacturers' OBAs. Presumably, the chemistry is very similar.  What the studies have shown shown clearly is that high levels in the ink receptor coatings from any of these manufacuturers are highly likely to contribute to early stage paper white changes in light fade testing. OBA fluorescence loss occurring significantly in as little as 10 megalux-hours ( equals 5 years on display at industry standard 450lux/12 hour per day average estimated display light levels). Also, note that the level of colorimetric (or densitometric) change attributable to loss of OBA fluorescence is typically below the "failure point" criterion for paper white yellowing in industry light fade testing criteria so it is generally unaccounted for in "display life" figures, yet it is definitely noticeable to discriminating printmakers and print collectors.

What all of this means is that papers containing no OBAs are free of early stage paper "yellowing" but may in fact show some very subtle light bleaching that "whitens" them. Papers that have OBAs in paper base but not in ink receptor coating are likely to show just noticeable but not easily noticeable visual changes due to OBA "burnout", whereas papers with moderate to high levels in the ink receptor coating are very likely to show noticeable loss of "cool bright white appearance" in relatively few years on display. That said, if initial paper color isn't all that important  to you (ie. you don't mind "bright white" or "natural" paper white color appearance) and paper surface texture is important to you, then anyone of these papers may become your preferred choice. Note also, that if you frame under UV filtered glazing, you will lose that "super bright white appearance from high OBA content immediately (because it is the UV content at  approximately 370 nm wavelength that triggers the fluorescence).

Other factors with these papers, especially with pigmented inkjet systems, are level of bronzing and differential gloss. In my tests, these factors also significantly differentiate these papers, and are more likely to affect your final buying decision, so it isn't a simple go-no go proposition on OBA content or any of these parameters for that matter. You really need to try a sample pack or two, and check them out. For example, while I appreciate Michael Reichmann's preference for IGF (it certainly wins on price), I find it has more bronzing and differential gloss on my Canon ipF5000 than other papers you mentioned. Thus, while very attractive to me in price, it is hard for me to say I "prefer" IGF because some of the other papers you mentioned perform better in initial overall IQ on my ipF5000. Wish I could tell you there was a clear cut winner, but ultimately it is very much a matter of personal taste.

I hope this explanation helps,

Best regards,

Mark McCormick
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark -

How do you know whether the OBAs are in the ink receptor coating or in the paper base?

-John

[MHMG]

Mark -

How do you know whether the OBAs are in the ink receptor coating or in the paper base?

-John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211202\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Blacklight is a great way to tell. They are readily available. Check a local hardware store or one of the bigbox stores like Home depot.   OBA's in front coating fluoresce brightly when shining the lamp down upon the surface. High levels glow like crazy. Lower concentrations glow less intensely but still noticeably. Then look carefully at the paper's cross section. Very often the paper will fluoresce equally or brighter in the cross section. And you can check verso as well. Sometimes anti-curl coatings on back have varying or no OBA levels. For the class of papers with No OBAs in imaging layer, you will see essentially no "glow" from front surface, but paper base in cross section or on the verso will be fluorescing and a little of that paper core fluorescence may be faintly noticeable from the front. Lastly, papers that truly have no OBAs won't fluoresce at all.

I actually set up a camera in my lab to record the level of fluorescence. With a little effort one can actually start to document relative concentration levels of OBA using digital camera exposures of the media when they are being subjected to a mix of both blacklight and regular visible tungsten or full spectrum FL lamps.

[johncustodio]

Blacklight is a great way to tell. They are readily available. Check a local hardware store or one of the bigbox stores like Home depot.   OBA's in front coating fluoresce brightly when shining the lamp down upon the surface. High levels glow like crazy. Lower concentrations glow less intensely but still noticeably. Then look carefully at the paper's cross section. Very often the paper will fluoresce equally or brighter in the cross section. And you can check verso as well. Sometimes anti-curl coatings on back have varying or no OBA levels. For the class of papers with No OBAs in imaging layer, you will see essentially no "glow" from front surface, but paper base in cross section or on the verso will be fluorescing and a little of that paper core fluorescence may be faintly noticeable from the front. Lastly, papers that truly have no OBAs won't fluoresce at all.

I actually set up a camera in my lab to record the level of fluorescence. With a little effort one can actually start to document relative concentration levels of OBA using digital camera exposures of the media when they are being subjected to a mix of both blacklight and regular visible tungsten or full spectrum FL lamps.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark-

I just bought a black light this morning so I will try it out tonight.

"For the class of papers with No OBAs in imaging layer, you will see essentially no "glow" from front surface"
So if you can't see a glow from the front surface, then it shouldn't matter whether there are OBAs in the base because you can't see them anyway. In other words, OBAs added only to the base should have very little brighting effect, and whether they fade in time or not shouldn't matter. I'm wondering why a manufacturer would put OBAs only in the base. The baryta layer (I'm thinking here of Ilford Gold Fiber Silk) should be fairly opaque so the paper base won't show through much anyway. Iflord Gold measures almost Lab neutral on the front, and looks yellowish on the back. I'll see what the blacklight does to it tonight.

-John

[akclimber]

I find this site to be helpful when considering papers to try:

http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm

Cheers!

[MHMG]

Mark-

So if you can't see a glow from the front surface, then it shouldn't matter whether there are OBAs in the base because you can't see them anyway. In other words, OBAs added only to the base should have very little brighting effect, and whether they fade in time or not shouldn't matter. I'm wondering why a manufacturer would put OBAs only in the base. The baryta layer (I'm thinking here of Ilford Gold Fiber Silk) should be fairly opaque so the paper base won't show through much anyway. Iflord Gold measures almost Lab neutral on the front, and looks yellowish on the back. I'll see what the blacklight does to it tonight.


-John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suspect that many inkjet formulations are coated on OBA containing paper stocks for economy of scale. These paper stocks are widely manufactured.  Also, there is often some light back scattered through the top coatings so the paper base color (including OBA fluorescensce) can contribute some to the final front surface color appearance. I have found I can sort this kind of paper from the NO OBA papers and from the papers containing OBAs in the top coat not only by black light examination but also by looking at the delta b* numbers determined between the UV excluded and UV included spectrophotometer measurements.  So  there is indeed a small "kick" from the paper core fluorescence in some instances. That said, John you are close to the mark when you conclude these papers with no OBA in the top coat but some in the paper core wiill probably not show serious color change over time, certainly not nearly as much as the ones with significant amounts in the top coat.

MY take on OBA versus No OBA at this point is probably much like yours. Personally, I'd avoid the "Bright white" papers which have substantial OBA levels in the top coat, but feel that ones with little or none in the ink receptor coating will probably not show significant color changes over time even if they have it in the paper core.  My light fade tests seem to be confirming this, ie. a little change going on but not as much and probably not noticeable by anyone except in direct side-by-side comparisons of an aged print against a fresh print.

BTW, I just rechecked IGFS, because I'm beginning to like this paper for my own work more and more.  I misspoke in my earlier post. I wrote "lford Gold Fiber Silk -  none in ink receptor coating, high level in paper base, low in anti curl layer (but may be "show thru" from base)".  I inadvertantly got the coating orientation backwards. It is the ink receptor side that shows low concentration OBA fluorescence or possibly "show thru" from the paper base", and it is the anticurl layer on the backside with no fluorescence.  We shall see in my light fade tests how this paper fares in terms of OBA activity loss and subsequent "yellowing". My guess is that it will be measurable but probably not pronounced amount.

Also, bear in mind that even NO OBA papers aren't immune to color changes from light exposure. I have measured subtle yet measurable changes (2 delta E), for example with Museo Silver Rag. Why might a paper with no OBA's show light induced changes?  One possible reason is that batch to batch color variations during manufacturing are sometimes corrected by small additions of dyes to level out batch to batch color uniformity. These minor additions, if they fade, will let the color of the paper change back to its "natural" bleached paper state. That color may not be yellower. It might actually be whiter as happened in one of my Museo test samples. The sample I'm referring to went from b* = 2.0 to b* = 0.0 meaning it started very slightly warm tone but ended up neutral under D50 illuminant.

[johncustodio]

I suspect that many inkjet formulations are coated on OBA containing paper stocks for economy of scale. These paper stocks are widely manufactured.  Also, there is often some light back scattered through the top coatings so the paper base color (including OBA fluorescensce) can contribute some to the final front surface color appearance. I have found I can sort this kind of paper from the NO OBA papers and from the papers containing OBAs in the top coat not only by black light examination but also by looking at the delta b* numbers determined between the UV excluded and UV included spectrophotometer measurements.  So  there is indeed a small "kick" from the paper core fluorescence in some instances. That said, John you are close to the mark when you conclude these papers with no OBA in the top coat but some in the paper core wiill probably not show serious color change over time, certainly not nearly as much as the ones with significant amounts in the top coat.

MY take on OBA versus No OBA at this point is probably much like yours. Personally, I'd avoid the "Bright white" papers which have substantial OBA levels in the top coat, but feel that ones with little or none in the ink receptor coating will probably not show significant color changes over time even if they have it in the paper core.  My light fade tests seem to be confirming this, ie. a little change going on but not as much and probably not noticeable by anyone except in direct side-by-side comparisons of an aged print against a fresh print.

BTW, I just rechecked IGFS, because I'm beginning to like this paper for my own work more and more.  I misspoke in my earlier post. I wrote "lford Gold Fiber Silk -  none in ink receptor coating, high level in paper base, low in anti curl layer (but may be "show thru" from base)".  I inadvertantly got the coating orientation backwards. It is the ink receptor side that shows low concentration OBA fluorescence or possibly "show thru" from the paper base", and it is the anticurl layer on the backside with no fluorescence.  We shall see in my light fade tests how this paper fares in terms of OBA activity loss and subsequent "yellowing". My guess is that it will be measurable but probably not pronounced amount.

Also, bear in mind that even NO OBA papers aren't immune to color changes from light exposure. I have measured subtle yet measurable changes (2 delta E), for example with Museo Silver Rag. Why might a paper with no OBA's show light induced changes?  One possible reason is that batch to batch color variations during manufacturing are sometimes corrected by small additions of dyes to level out batch to batch color uniformity. These minor additions, if they fade, will let the color of the paper change back to its "natural" bleached paper state. That color may not be yellower. It might actually be whiter as happened in one of my Museo test samples. The sample I'm referring to went from b* = 2.0 to b* = 0.0 meaning it started very slightly warm tone but ended up neutral under D50 illuminant.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211257\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark-

I just did a quick UV photo test of some papers with my new UV light, posted here. I did the fronts and backs just to see the difference. The paper name is labeled on the paper but just in case they are not legible the papers are from left to right: Epson Exhibition Fiber (Lab b= -5., Hahnemuehle Fine Art Pearl (b= -3.6), Harman Gloss FB AL (b=-3.1), Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk (b=-0.7), Hahnemuehle Photo Rag (b=0., Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Pearl (b=1.5), Crane Silver Rag (b=2.0), and Innova F Type Gloss Warm Tone (b=3..

Note that the 3 papers on the right have no fluorescence on the front or on the back. IGFS and H Photo Rag have a slight and equal amount of fluorescence on the front, but IGFS has none on the back (consistent with what you reported). The other papers have a lot of fluorescence. The Lab b numbers were measured with my Eye One spectro. It's an older model so I believe it does react to UV.

I'm a little disappointed with the IGFS because I thought it had no OBAs, that the baryta layer provided the whiteness. However, it seems to have the same amount as the H Photo Rag, which was my old standard. The OBA amounts are much less than the other papers and like you said above, this small amount might not have too great an effect when it fades.

-John

[Ernst Dinkla]

I'm a little disappointed with the IGFS because I thought it had no OBAs, that the baryta layer provided the whiteness. However, it seems to have the same amount as the H Photo Rag, which was my old standard. The OBA amounts are much less than the other papers and like you said above, this small amount might not have too great an effect when it fades.

-John
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There's a misunderstanding that barium sulfate is a better whitener than TiO2 the whitener that has been used in inkjet papers for a long time. That is not the whole story though. Interesting to read how the industry tries to keep costs down on whiteners:

[a href=\"http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/plastics-rubber-products-manufacturing/294696-1.html]http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/p...g/294696-1.html[/url]


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[MHMG]

Mark-

I just did a quick UV photo test of some papers with my new UV light, posted here. I did the fronts and backs just to see the difference. The paper name is labeled on the paper but just in case they are not legible the papers are from left to right: Epson Exhibition Fiber (Lab b= -5., Hahnemuehle Fine Art Pearl (b= -3.6), Harman Gloss FB AL (b=-3.1), Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk (b=-0.7), Hahnemuehle Photo Rag (b=0., Hahnemuehle Photo Rag Pearl (b=1.5), Crane Silver Rag (b=2.0), and Innova F Type Gloss Warm Tone (b=3..

Note that the 3 papers on the right have no fluorescence on the front or on the back. IGFS and H Photo Rag have a slight and equal amount of fluorescence on the front, but IGFS has none on the back (consistent with what you reported). The other papers have a lot of fluorescence. The Lab b numbers were measured with my Eye One spectro. It's an older model so I believe it does react to UV.

I'm a little disappointed with the IGFS because I thought it had no OBAs, that the baryta layer provided the whiteness. However, it seems to have the same amount as the H Photo Rag, which was my old standard. The OBA amounts are much less than the other papers and like you said above, this small amount might not have too great an effect when it fades.

-John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211298\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John, Nice blacklight photos and very nice research. Your Eye One Spectro UV included b* values seem to be very consistent with my spectroscan measurements.

I think what we've covered well in this thread is that the role and influence of OBAs in inkjet papers is complex and often times very subtle yet at other time quite significant. My light fade tests are really just getting started so its early in the game, but already, individual products show very interesting differences even in the early stages of light exposure. As the tests progress, I am anticipating that different papers will influence ink fade (pigment inks included) in other ways which may be far more significant than the initial "burnout" (or not) of OBAs.

Based on my testing so far, I think a sweeping condemnation of papers containing OBA's is premature. That said, I definitely think that specific papers with high levels in the ink receptor layer deserve to be avoided if long term consistency of paper white color is important in an artist's work. While many images cover the paper surface with high ink levels thus diminishing the role of paper color, other high key images that rely on lots of highlight and paper white and near-paper-white image areas are far more likely to reveal the influence of OBA burnout and other paper color changes that occur over time.  It reinforces my conviction that printer/ink/paper combinations really need to be tested on specifics because generalizations are often misleading.

[MHMG]

Ernst, Thanks for the link. Interesting.

[TylerB]

...
Based on my testing so far, I think a sweeping condemnation of papers containing OBA's is premature....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that's my feeling right now, simply based on how little trouble we've had with pre digital papers in the art world that did contain them. As others have said, they may be difficult to avoid, often used very little just to maintain batch consistency. John Dean pointed out to me that a strict avoidance of OBAs in papers that have achieved a decent white may indicate that other processes potentially destructive to to the paper may have been necessary in manufacture.
We did used to be concerned about the washing out a bit, unevenly, in our darkroom papers.
I think they should probably be avoided when used in excess, but I don't like those bluer papers anyway.
Your contribution to the community with your testing is most appreciated

Tyler
[a href=\"http://www.custom-digital.com/]http://www.custom-digital.com/[/url]

[PhillyPhotographer]

If you contact Jim Doyle or any of his staff at Shades of Paper I'm sure they be happy to help you with your selection.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jim is the only person I use for printers, paper and ink.

My choice of paper is Crane Museo Silver Rag

[jdoyle1713]

If you contact Jim Doyle or any of his staff at Shades of Paper I'm sure they be happy to help you with your selection.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank You for the referal!  Here Is The List with Out OBA's

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl
Innova Warm Tone
Crane Museo Silver rag
Harman Warmtone

Thats It Folks.. Not a whole lot of choices just yet.. Maybe the next generation Where they will be putting white pigment into the paper instead of OBA's..

Food for thought!

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http:www.shadesofpaper.com

[mike_botelho]

Thank You for the referal!  Here Is The List with Out OBA's

Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl
Innova Warm Tone
Crane Museo Silver rag
Harman Warmtone

Thats It Folks.. Not a whole lot of choices just yet.. Maybe the next generation Where they will be putting white pigment into the paper instead of OBA's..

Food for thought!

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http:www.shadesofpaper.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for the list, Jim.  I'll be ordering samples of the Silver Rag and Photo Rag Pearl in the near future.  After I get some canvas samples and get that area sorted out first.

BTW, is your comment about using pigment in papers something you've heard about papers in development, or is it just a (good) suggestion on your part?

Kind Regards,

Mike

[jdoyle1713]

Mike

Nope I now that its being tested as we peak. Several mills are trying to make it a realality!

Cheers
Jim
http://www.shadesofpaper.com