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citizenk

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Approaching MF
« on: July 21, 2008, 11:40:39 am »

Hello!
reading into this forum in the last weeks definitly changed my vision in terms of what my next camera setup should be: I am definitely seduced by the option of getting a P21+ or similar with a mamiya or contax 645 body.
I mainly shoot alternative fashion, in location or in studio and I actually use a canon setup: I consider myself a newbie in the field but I've been growing in the last 4 years and I want to look at things in perspective.

So now I am starting considering: wich body? I once had a RZ, wich I loved, but I would not buy it now again, mostly for the cropping factor.

the choice now falls between contax or mamiya, and in terms of personal taste for lenses, I'd go for contax.. but I never used those bodies: any advice? the contax seems also more flexible in terms of sync speed..

if anyone wants to check out my works I would really appreciate: maybe some of you may say that my work is not worth such an expense and suggest another route!! :-D

my website is under construction right now so I apologize for some mistakes and jerkyness in the navigation:

My Webpage under construction

(click on the pictures to get into each serie, click again to get back to the main strip)
thanks in advance 4 all the feedback and advices ;-)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 11:42:27 am by citizenk »
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Khun_K

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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2008, 12:19:05 pm »

Quote
Hello!
reading into this forum in the last weeks definitly changed my vision in terms of what my next camera setup should be: I am definitely seduced by the option of getting a P21+ or similar with a mamiya or contax 645 body.
I mainly shoot alternative fashion, in location or in studio and I actually use a canon setup: I consider myself a newbie in the field but I've been growing in the last 4 years and I want to look at things in perspective.

So now I am starting considering: wich body? I once had a RZ, wich I loved, but I would not buy it now again, mostly for the cropping factor.

the choice now falls between contax or mamiya, and in terms of personal taste for lenses, I'd go for contax.. but I never used those bodies: any advice? the contax seems also more flexible in terms of sync speed..

if anyone wants to check out my works I would really appreciate: maybe some of you may say that my work is not worth such an expense and suggest another route!! :-D

my website is under construction right now so I apologize for some mistakes and jerkyness in the navigation:

My Webpage under construction

(click on the pictures to get into each serie, click again to get back to the main strip)
thanks in advance 4 all the feedback and advices ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Contax 645 is a terrific choice in term of cost, quality and flexibility, except its sync speed is less attractive.  I use P45+ on my Contax 645 bought when it first became available till now and my sync speed is no longer good at 1/125, I can do it only at 1/60 or slower with studio flash.  But image quality is never a problem even compare to the newest system.  On the other hand, I also use Hy6 with Sinar e75LV and have to remind you not to miss the Sinar offering especially it is so far the only system offer true German optic (some may argue this), and highest sync speed, and room to grow, in case sensor size continue to grow, and the revolving adapter.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2008, 01:08:56 pm »

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Contax 645 is a terrific choice in term of cost, quality and flexibility, except its sync speed is less attractive.  I use P45+ on my Contax 645 bought when it first became available till now and my sync speed is no longer good at 1/125, I can do it only at 1/60 or slower with studio flash.  But image quality is never a problem even compare to the newest system.  On the other hand, I also use Hy6 with Sinar e75LV and have to remind you not to miss the Sinar offering especially it is so far the only system offer true German optic (some may argue this), and highest sync speed, and room to grow, in case sensor size continue to grow, and the revolving adapter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Like all cameras the contax has it's good and bad.

Good

well built, right angle grip, dual battery system, (it needs it), zeiss lenses, good lens range, can adapt other lenses to it, look professional, waist level finder (if you can find one), a lot of lenses are for sale used, with the only difficult ones to find is the 55mm and the 350.

Everything else you can pretty much buy in any major to semi major market in the world.

Rentals depend.  A lot of places still carry them, most rental studios have them, some rental companies have moved on the the older h-1 and h2 blads.

Autofoucs is very good, but you have to learn how to work it.

Build quality is tank like.  I've never had it break unless I did something to it, (like stick my thumb through the shutter.

It's cheap to buy.  Ebay prices are inflated but KEH and most dealers will sell it low, almost anything for less than what they're asking.

It's analog in it's design.  real f stops, real shutter speed and takes about 4 seconnds to learn.

It has a digital interface so there is no cords to the lenses and with the Phase it's the most bulletproof camera I've ever owned, except for the original 1ds.

All the lenses are tack sharp.  I know some people pull ouut charts and stuff, but I've never seen a soft image.

It  sounds like a camera, not an electronic device and doesn't make that clap slap sound of a lot of medium format cameras.

Mirror bounce is non existant.  I've hand held at a 1./60 to 1/30th with no issue

Bad

The viewfinder with a cropped sensor can be challanging.  Nothing like an RZ though and  I've tried all the workarounds and for me the best thing to do is just not worry about it and focus and either manual or auto I'm as realiable with it as any camera.

The waist level finder is kind of a downer, only because it shows you how big the focusing area really is without the prims.  Downside to this is it's only going to work horizontal.  Upside is horizontal is the new vertical.

The upside of the prism is unlike the blad it doesn't bend the image so what you see is what you get.

The only other downside is it's rare to walk into a dealer and they have a contax back in stock.  They must order it.

For the money, it's probably the best deal around.

It does sync at 125th, though the x sync is 1/90th.

at 125th depending on the flash you will some some graduated falloff to the right of the frame, but it doesn't show in complicated shots, only can be seen in medium grey, or white.

I just don't think about that too much as we're always cleaning white backgrounds anyway.

JR
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Juanito

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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2008, 01:42:16 pm »

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So now I am starting considering: wich body? I once had a RZ, wich I loved, but I would not buy it now again, mostly for the cropping factor.
Not sure what you mean by this. You don't lose any image by going with an RZ verses a 645 system. If you shoot a scene with a 50mm on an RZ, you're going to get essentially the same image if you shoot the same scene with a 50mm on a Contax or Mamiya (or even a 4x5). Yes, you are cropping down from the 6x7 original format of the RZ, but you end up at the same place as a 645. The limiting factor is the sensor, not the camera system.

I think the RZ is the best deal going in medium format right now because it's so cheap and so good. I have to say though that for handholding, I do like my Hassie H1 set up. I just can't live with a 1/125 flash sync so that was my only real option.

John

Snook

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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2008, 01:51:29 pm »

Quote
Not sure what you mean by this. You don't lose any image by going with an RZ verses a 645 system. If you shoot a scene with a 50mm on an RZ, you're going to get essentially the same image if you shoot the same scene with a 50mm on a Contax or Mamiya (or even a 4x5). Yes, you are cropping down from the 6x7 original format of the RZ, but you end up at the same place as a 645. The limiting factor is the sensor, not the camera system.

I think the RZ is the best deal going in medium format right now because it's so cheap and so good. I have to say though that for handholding, I do like my Hassie H1 set up. I just can't live with a 1/125 flash sync so that was my only real option.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is why I went with the RZ which has 400/th.. But I have never even used it outdoors yet as it is not the most comfortable camera for outdoor shot's.
I picked up all my lens on e-bay for under 400.00
I just got a 140 macro "M" not "Z" for under 300.00....:+}
It is no speed demon but was not intended for that..
Snook
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robert zimmerman

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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 02:01:34 pm »

I've had Contax, RZ's and Hassy H with digital and all have their strenghts and weaknesses.

The biggest two problems I had with the Contax were the finder and the battery consumption.

The finder is tiny. Really tiny compared to the H and RZ. I'd recomend picking one up and checking it out before you buy.

The batteries are just a pita. Nothing more, nothing less.

The plus side is the right agle grip, the lenses (although I did get a lot of c.a. and distortion with my 80mm). But you have a lot of good lenses, and they look and feel very sexy : ).
The waistlevel finder is also very nice.

So if you have eagle eyes and don't mind having to buy batteries like bottled water it is a great cam.

As far as the RZ goes...I'd make the decision based on when and where I was going to need it. It's a monster and hand holding it for hours is exhausing. Otherwise a great camera with great lenses.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 02:08:25 pm by kipling »
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robert zimmerman

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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2008, 02:26:24 pm »

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Not sure what you mean by this. You don't lose any image by going with an RZ verses a 645 system. If you shoot a scene with a 50mm on an RZ, you're going to get essentially the same image if you shoot the same scene with a 50mm on a Contax or Mamiya (or even a 4x5). Yes, you are cropping down from the 6x7 original format of the RZ, but you end up at the same place as a 645. The limiting factor is the sensor, not the camera system.

I think the RZ is the best deal going in medium format right now because it's so cheap and so good. I have to say though that for handholding, I do like my Hassie H1 set up. I just can't live with a 1/125 flash sync so that was my only real option.

John
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Yeah, but I know what he means. It is like James said, it's really depressing looking down at a cropped off RZ screen. Sooooo much space and so little used.
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Juanito

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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2008, 02:35:29 pm »

Quote
It is like James said, it's really depressing looking down at a cropped off RZ screen.
Yeah, but that's what gaffers tape is for.  

John
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 02:36:01 pm by Juanito »
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G_Allen

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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 02:53:10 pm »

I used to have the Contax (it was stolen) and then moved to the H2.

At the time, I wasn't comfortable with ebay surfing for another Contax kit, so I opted for the H2. The main reasons for the swtich were that the viewfinder is much larger, and the higher sync speed.

The H2 is a very practical camera, but it drives me crazy. The influence of the mirror shake can not be understated. I initially thought that the lenses were not sharp because I was getting mirror shake, even in some studio situations.

It is a heavy camera, difficult to handhold. I would not even think about using it at 1/60 sec hand-held with natural light as I used to with the Contax.

I'm seriously thinking about switching back to the Contax, or maybe even trying the Phase body. I use a P30.

Good luck. Remember to try before you buy -- go with what feels right.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2008, 03:23:50 pm »

Quote
I used to have the Contax (it was stolen) and then moved to the H2.

At the time, I wasn't comfortable with ebay surfing for another Contax kit, so I opted for the H2. The main reasons for the swtich were that the viewfinder is much larger, and the higher sync speed.

The H2 is a very practical camera, but it drives me crazy. The influence of the mirror shake can not be understated. I initially thought that the lenses were not sharp because I was getting mirror shake, even in some studio situations.

It is a heavy camera, difficult to handhold. I would not even think about using it at 1/60 sec hand-held with natural light as I used to with the Contax.

I'm seriously thinking about switching back to the Contax, or maybe even trying the Phase body. I use a P30.

Good luck. Remember to try before you buy -- go with what feels right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I wish everybody would just buy the Phase or the Hasseblad or the HY6 camera.

Realy, I'm serious as then Contax stuff would be cheaper and if E-bay is any indicator it's going up in price.  I paid under 2k for my 35mm and ebay has them at 3,200 though I don't think ebay is the true yardstick.

Honestly, unless somebody introduces something at Photokina that is really ground breaking, there is nothing out today that doesn't do any better than what I have now, except the x sync and I can get around that so I guess I'm set.

JR


JR
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robert zimmerman

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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 03:24:45 pm »

Quote
I used to have the Contax (it was stolen) and then moved to the H2.

At the time, I wasn't comfortable with ebay surfing for another Contax kit, so I opted for the H2. The main reasons for the swtich were that the viewfinder is much larger, and the higher sync speed.

The H2 is a very practical camera, but it drives me crazy. The influence of the mirror shake can not be understated. I initially thought that the lenses were not sharp because I was getting mirror shake, even in some studio situations.

It is a heavy camera, difficult to handhold. I would not even think about using it at 1/60 sec hand-held with natural light as I used to with the Contax.

I'm seriously thinking about switching back to the Contax, or maybe even trying the Phase body. I use a P30.

Good luck. Remember to try before you buy -- go with what feels right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you tried using the extra mirror delay? I have no problems hand holding with it on.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2008, 04:45:40 pm »

Hi Fabio,

Your images are wonderful and I thought your website was cool too.    I'm not as experienced as some of the others who commented but just thought I'd add a few of my observations since I got into MF a year ago.  You won't be able to use AF very much of the time and its really slow in all the MF cameras compared to Canon and Nikon.  The viewfinder is really important and I thought the viewfinder on the contax was tiny and not super bright.  The lenses are good on the contax and not too expensive either.   But I ruled it out as I did the mamiya system which didn't have a very high sync speed also at the time I didn't think the lenses were as good, but I might have been wrong since some of the new ones are great.   I tried the hassleblad and liked it but decided to buy a Rollei 6008 and I found a P20 back to fit on it.  The Rollei has up to 1/1000 sync which is great and has no problems with mirror shake  and the controls are really intuitive for me. The viewfinder is good and I like the 45 deg prism.   There's a lot of used lenses out there and some really good ones, but not all are cheap.   Probably only like 10 of us in the world that shoot this system but it is pretty nice and the lenses will work with the newer Hy6 if you choose to upgrade down the road.

Eric
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evgeny

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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 12:04:14 am »

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I use P45+ on my Contax 645 bought when it first became available till now and my sync speed is no longer good at 1/125, I can do it only at 1/60 or slower with studio flash.

Why only at 1/60 or slower with studio flash?

Thank.
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citizenk

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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 11:10:26 am »

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Not sure what you mean by this. You don't lose any image by going with an RZ verses a 645 system. If you shoot a scene with a 50mm on an RZ, you're going to get essentially the same image if you shoot the same scene with a 50mm on a Contax or Mamiya (or even a 4x5). Yes, you are cropping down from the 6x7 original format of the RZ, but you end up at the same place as a 645. The limiting factor is the sensor, not the camera system.

I think the RZ is the best deal going in medium format right now because it's so cheap and so good. I have to say though that for handholding, I do like my Hassie H1 set up. I just can't live with a 1/125 flash sync so that was my only real option.

John
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great Hint juanito: never saw it in that perspective, this helps me a lot, mostly because the RZ is deinitely my preferred camera: I will not miss the af and have no worryes about the weight.

anyone of you using the rz? with wich back?  I'd really love to have a more detailed info from a rz user!
thanks
Fabio
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 11:11:00 am by citizenk »
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Snook

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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 11:25:12 am »

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I wish everybody would just buy the Phase or the Hasseblad or the HY6 camera.

Realy, I'm serious as then Contax stuff would be cheaper and if E-bay is any indicator it's going up in price.  I paid under 2k for my 35mm and ebay has them at 3,200 though I don't think ebay is the true yardstick.

Honestly, unless somebody introduces something at Photokina that is really ground breaking, there is nothing out today that doesn't do any better than what I have now, except the x sync and I can get around that so I guess I'm set.

JR
JR
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James .. how are you getting "around" with the x-sync...
You mentioned that several times and I am wondering how? You just don't shoot stuff like that?
I have hated that every since I went with digital. I had all the Pentax and Mamiya leafshutters. The pentax I just gave away.
The only camera I know of was the Canon 1D which had 500/th sync with flash but the quality was never good enough for what I do.
I have often though about going with hassleblad just for that reason. I have just always thought of hassleblad as expensive and not so reliable with digital.
Thanks for any further explanation of how you are getting "around" the x-sync problem?
Snook
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Juanito

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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 12:20:42 pm »

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great Hint juanito: never saw it in that perspective, this helps me a lot, mostly because the RZ is deinitely my preferred camera: I will not miss the af and have no worryes about the weight.

anyone of you using the rz? with wich back?  I'd really love to have a more detailed info from a rz user!
thanks
Fabio
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My main camera is the Hassie H1. I'm using the Aptus 22 for the Hassie. I've got an adapter from Leaf that I can use with the RZ. It costs about $900 but it allows me to rotate the digital back just like it was a film back. It's pretty slick and it comes with a viewing screen that's cropped for the Leaf 22 back.

I use the RZ PRo II not the Pro IID. The adapter kit includes a little cable that you run from the front of the RZ to the digital back. It's no big deal and you forget that it's there. The whole setup works flawlessly. I haven't used the RZ shift lens but that could be kind of cool to play with.

The cool thing about this is that I can use the system that's going to work best for my shoot. I'm not locked into one setup. If I'm doing something where I want the waist level finder, out comes the RZ. Hand-holding on location - it's H1 time.

I don't know for certain, but I think Leaf sells a Mamiya 645 back and a RZ adapter as well in case you want to go that route. I like the idea of having options.

John

Juanito

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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 12:21:48 pm »

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Thanks for any further explanation of how you are getting "around" the x-sync problem?
20,000 watt/seconds and a big-ass generator will do it.

John

Khun_K

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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2008, 01:08:42 pm »

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Why only at 1/60 or slower with studio flash?

Thank.
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I think my Contax 645 is getting old and no longer holding the top sync speed.  I have 3 bodies, but still on my first one - just can't retire it.  It is amazing how well the camera was designed, and gone thru all the heavy use, and how strong it is.  I ran 3 digital backs on it already (P25, P45 and P45+) and lost count how many exposures, not sure if P65+ will be next.  I have every lenses, including some form Hasselblad V mount, a highy flexible system.  I use the Zeiss TPP 300/2.8 with MAM-1 often, even in studio, great result, by the way.

Regards, K
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evgeny

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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2008, 02:37:01 pm »

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I think my Contax 645 is getting old and no longer holding the top sync speed.

I see, thanks.

By the way, I have two bodies, too, but only one digital back anf four lenses.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 02:46:19 pm by evgeny »
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