P65+

[DarkPenguin]

Jesus christ.

They're supposed to come out with more pixels at a lower price so the old ones drop in price even more.

[michael]

I guess Phase forgot to read the rule book.  

Michael

[DarkPenguin]

I guess Phase forgot to read the rule book.   

Michael
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Damn them trying to make a profit!

Someday I'll have one of those things.  I'm pretty sure we'll have returned to the Moon by then.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

As a certified Tuesday morning arm-chair quarterback, I gotta say: "Real Men don't call dinky little 645 'Full Frame'. Real Men want at least 6x7! Or is it 4x5? 8x10? 11x14? Let's go for a 16x20" sensor! Whooey!"  

[jmboss]

A 6x7 full frame digital sensor would be very nice!!!!

Maybe by 2012?

Joe Bossuyt

[framah]

I guess for now you'll have to settle for a Betterlight scanback to get the size you crave.

I know, not the same thing as a single sensor but it is pretty impressive just the same.

[BernardLanguillier]

They're supposed to come out with more pixels at a lower price so the old ones drop in price even more.
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My view is that they went clearly too far this time around. This back priced at 20.000 - 25.000 US$ would have attracted more people to MF, while now it should be clear for most shooters than the ROI is bad.

The very high prices of MFDB were justified at first because of the comparison with the price of film. The problem now is that nobody shoots film anymore, and the price of the P65+ will be compared with that of the D3x, 1ds3 and other MF digital backs - including many second hand units from... PhaseOne.

Future will tell, but I am 97.3% sure that this kind of pricing means the death of MF by October 2013. Phaseone is not alone, Dalsa and Kodak MF sensor division will go down with them. The reason is simple, the R&D cost of such devices can only be amortized through the sales of a sufficient number of units.

Since few people will buy the P65+ at this price point, Phaseone will get little return on their investement, and so will Dalsa. This will further reduce the funds available for R&D of the next generation, etc...

The very same story happened a few years back with high end graphic cards for Engineering workstations. Look now, all these cards are built on the very same hardware developped for gaming PCs and selling in the 100.000s units. Crays use regular ships nowadays,... examples abound.

The only field where high end electronics is able to survive is high end audio. Why? Because there is no objective measure of performance in audio and because the technology is basically fairly simple.

But what do I know.

Cheers,
Bernard

[DarkPenguin]

*chop*
Future will tell, but I am 97.3% sure that this kind of pricing means the death of MF by October 2013.
*chop*

Psychohistory was fictional, you know.

A chip that size has to be insanely expensive to make.  How big is a typical wafer?

[BernardLanguillier]

Psychohistory was fictional, you know.

A chip that size has to be insanely expensive to make.  How big is a typical wafer?
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Well, if it is 10.000 US$ more expensive to make than a 36x48 mm chip, then going full frame was a poor business decision in my book.

But I should probably rejoy instead of complaining, the current price point is so much out of my budget that I will not have to waste time considering whether I invest or not. I would have at 25.000 US$.

Cheers,
Bernard

[paulbk]

Anyone ever had a serious editing session with a 360MB 16 bit file? What's it like? What kind of computer do you need to have a reasonably productive editing session without taking some kind of time dilation drug?

Envy rant:
The Porsche 911 GT2, 530 hp, track speed 204 mph, cost $191,700 US. Any rock star or super athlete (football, basketball, hockey) can buy one. And I’ll bet half couldn’t find one of the two turbochargers even if you told them they’re located in the exhaust manifold. In other words, the market for exotic technology is mostly for rich people. Who, in general, don’t understand the engineering nor care to. But the Porsche sells because the experience of driving one is visceral whether you understand the technology or not. I don’t think the P65+ will have quite the same effect on the adrenal glands. But what do I know?

[jecxz]

Anyone ever had a serious editing session with a 360MB 16 bit file? What's it like? What kind of computer do you need to have a reasonably productive editing session without taking some kind of time dilation drug?
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Scans of 645 film on a Nikon 9000 are 350mb+ each. My computer opens that size file in CS2/CS3 in about 2-3 seconds.

With Photoshop layers we're talking 1gb+ file sizes, still, just a few seconds with the right hardware.

[Josh-H]

Scans of 645 film on a Nikon 9000 are 350mb+ each. My computer opens that size file in CS2/CS3 in about 2-3 seconds.

With Photoshop layers we're talking 1gb+ file sizes, still, just a few seconds with the right hardware.
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Heck its easy to end up with a 1GB file from the Canon 1DS MKIII at 21 mega pixels with a few layers - and especially if uprezzed.

I wouldnt have thought computing power for working with files from the new P65+ is going to be an issue though.

Any Pro who needs and is prepared to pony up the $ for the P65+ likely wont blink at dropping another 6k+ on a mini super computer    to work with the files quickly. Time is money after all.

The great thing about announcements like the P65+ is that they push the technological advacement envelope and  the technology eventually trickles down into more affordable products - and relativley quickly these days. Of course the other great thing - there will likely be some P45+ backs on the market at good prices for those who want to get into MFDB on more 'shoestring' budgets.

[Jack Varney]

I love this new 60mp back! I think it is exactly what Phase should have done and done it right now. The back will allow us who really wanted 8X10 in film, but didn’t have the resources, to do these things in digital. It won’t be me because I am still working to make my P45+ sing and even if I were that good our home has too much glass and too little wall space to make the prints that a P65+ deserves. And that’s ok because at 69 years I’ve got my hands full with what I have. The P65+ is for the photographer that needs it more than for the one who wants it.

Big files, sure, but faster PCs will enable the workflow. Shoot, my P45+ files, with layers, frequently gobble up 1GB to 1.6GB of memory. Of course, as an amateur with few time constraints, my 2.6GHz P4 is fast enough to save in a minute or sharpen in 30 to 40 seconds or so.

For nearly 60 years I have I have been a lover of fine music and the technology to produce it. As kids in the fifties we used to modify our table top radios and phonographs to improve the sound. Later in life I chased the state of the art in audio. I was fortunate enough to have the income and a supportive spouse. After twenty years or so I learned that it was not possible for me to continue to have the world class sound system.

So, today I have wonderful music and a camera that seriously challenges me. It is not and it never will be a P65+. And that is fine. For you younger guys and gals Phase just did you a favor. The technological pressure has been increased. All will benefit.

[Mort54]

Since few people will buy the P65+ at this price point, Phaseone will get little return on their investement, and so will Dalsa. This will further reduce the funds available for R&D of the next generation, etc...

Presumably Phase One managers aren't fools, recognize they have to turn a profit, have done their market analysis and ROI calculations, and based on all that decided to press ahead. Presumably :-)

I suspect there will be other, unnamed customers of the chip - various ministries of defense, space agengies, remote sensing companies, etc, which aren't competitors of Phase One. Who can tell what those quantities might be, or if they exist, but if they do exist, that would help to amortize investments.

I do find the rollout of this information amusing. First, Capture Integration posts online that there will be a webinar on Friday (this past Friday), in which Phase One will give them the details on the P65+. Then Michael announces that there will be a Phase One announcement tomorrow (14 July). And tomorrow's Phase One announcement will presumably announce that they will be making an announcement at Photokina. At Photokina they will, finally, announce their product, which has already been anounced several times over. How many times can you announce a product. I guess as many times as it takes to thoroughly bore the press.

[BernardLanguillier]

Anyone ever had a serious editing session with a 360MB 16 bit file? What's it like? What kind of computer do you need to have a reasonably productive editing session without taking some kind of time dilation drug?
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Many of my pano files are in the 100 ~ 300 megapixel range, so that 60MP is not that big a deal really.

The big costs though is not PC, it is in live storage.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Presumably Phase One managers aren't fools, recognize they have to turn a profit, have done their market analysis and ROI calculations, and based on all that decided to press ahead. Presumably :-)
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You would think so, but all the companies who went bankrupt in the past had also a presumably perfect business plan...

Cheers,
Bernard

[DarkPenguin]

Anyone ever had a serious editing session with a 360MB 16 bit file? What's it like? What kind of computer do you need to have a reasonably productive editing session without taking some kind of time dilation drug?

Too bad Canon didn't make it.  The direct print button would make life easy.  

[Rob C]

Pushing the cost envelope might be good business with Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo, but even there you reach the too-high level: how many Bugattis have you seen on the road?

Neither do I see the rich am taking up much of the slack - such cameras and their attendant baggage are not as convenient a show of wealth as is the Leica; not all are called Daddy-Something-Or-Another and require to be drowned in bling.

I know I´m old, lived in a different era, but I still had and have eyes to see the world around me, and what I see today doesn´t convince me or even make me think that today´s posters, magazines or anything else have reached a new plateau of excellence: advertisements made from the product of 35mm, from Hasselblad film cameras and Mamiya 6x7s have certainly not been put into any kind of digital shade - only those with the investment they have made now have to justify, if only to themselves, that there is a brave new world of superior image out there; the isn´t.

But, and a huge but, image manipulation on the computer has made many things possible and easier to achieve. I hold no doubts about that.

Frankly, it might all turn out to be good news for Kodak, Fuji, Linhof and Sinar.

Rob C

[Nick Rains]

Pushing the cost envelope might be good business with Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo, but even there you reach the too-high level: how many Bugattis have you seen on the road?

Neither do I see the rich am taking up much of the slack - such cameras and their attendant baggage are not as convenient a show of wealth as is the Leica; not all are called Daddy-Something-Or-Another and require to be drowned in bling.

Rob C
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Wealthy people will always buy 'the best' whether they use it or not. Not many Veyrons will be driven at 406km/hr, but, just to own one, mmmm. You won't see many used by taxi drivers or couriers (read: pro drivers) though.

There are two sorts of photographer - amateurs and pros. This distinction does not account in any way for talent or budget, just circumstances and choice. The higher the MFDBs go in price a higher proportion of well heeled amateurs will buy them since the mainstream pros can less and less justify the purchase on a pure ROI basis.

It goes back to the old adage -  cheap, good or quick - pick any two.

In photography this 'triangle' translates as Cost, Convenience and Quality (3Cs  ). Quality is not really a problem, just shoot 10x8 film, but you pay for this in convenience, big time. If you want quality and convenience together (MFDBs) then you have to pay through the nose. Both formats are at the extremes of their character.

Different people will be happy with different compromises within this three way tension; Pros generally need enough quality, plenty of convenience and will pay medium-high prices. For amateurs, convenience is somewhat less important, pure quality is often paramount and many are prepared to pay the earth for it.

What I hear in these threads is pros asking for less noise, higher ISO and faster capture rates (convenience) rather than pure Mpx count. Amateurs and high-end enthusiasts seem happy to go for the quality high ground at any price - at least those who can afford it and don't have to justify the purchase to an accountant.

This back, like the P45 before it (and maybe the P25), marks a divergence in buying patterns and motives within the photographic equipment market.

[Jack Flesher]

If I could afford it without feeling any pain, I'd order it right now and not even care about the trade-in value of my P45+...  But I still have three kids to get through University so it may be a while for me  

Which gets straight to the point of do I *need* it?  Unfortunately I do not... (But I want one anyway.)  

Right now, only two unanswered questions give me pause: The first is, how long of exposure will the new Dalsa sensor allow?  I often shoot exposures in the 1 to 2 minute range and traditionally, Dalsa has not had good long-exposure characteristics beyond 30 seconds.  The second is what gains will the low-resolution setting allow? (Ha! -- now 30MP is "low" resolution!)  Higher frame rates and higher ISO, or only one of those, or none at all except a smaller file?  

IF one got faster frame rates and/or higher ISO, then this back becomes a true 2-fer and hence seems to pretty quickly justify its cost of entry.

My .02...