Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Expose for highlights and.....?  (Read 13115 times)

Bill Jaynes

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 62
Expose for highlights and.....?
« on: July 13, 2008, 01:50:56 am »

Shooting black and white negatives, I learned a good exposure technique, meter the shadows and stop down 2. This would ensure good shadow detail and leave highlight adjustment for printing when it could most often be handled.
Now, with digital, the larger horror is blown highlights. Has anyone worked out a scheme such as metering the highlights and opening up 1, 2, how many stops?
Thanks,
Bill
http://www.montanahi-line.net/
Logged
Best regards,
Bill Jaynes [url=http://ww

The View

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1284
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 02:17:33 am »

You actually need to expose for the lights to maintain maximum dynamic range and protect shadow detail.

This is a good introduction into this matter:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorial...ose-right.shtml
Logged
The View of deserts, forests, mountains. Not the TV show that I have never watched.

dwdallam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2044
    • http://www.dwdallam.com
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2008, 02:39:21 am »

I call my method BTYB.

Bracket till you blow.
Logged

marcmccalmont

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1780
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2008, 02:48:53 am »

Just use your histogram and exposure compensation. In very little time you will know your camera (sensor) so well that the second exposure nails the ETTR.
Marc
Logged
Marc McCalmont

NikoJorj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1082
    • http://nikojorj.free.fr/
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 09:59:11 am »

Quote
Just use your histogram and exposure compensation. In very little time you will know your camera (sensor) so well that the second exposure nails the ETTR.
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's the soundest procedure to use, but FWIW...

If the OP desperately needs examples, my goodol'300d (yes, the original DRebel) blows about 2 and a third stop above metering - ie when the needle starts to blink in M mode, indicating a metering more than 2 stops above the choiced setting, I'll begin to be on the verge of blown HL.
Quite useful for the peculiar case of panoramas imho.
Logged
Nicolas from Grenoble
A small gallery

01af

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 296
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 11:17:18 am »

Quote
Shooting black-and-white negatives, I learned a good exposure technique, meter the shadows and stop down 2. This would ensure good shadow detail and leave highlight adjustment for printing when it could most often be handled.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly. This method is called "to expose for the shadows"---get the shadows right and let the highlights fall where they may. It's the proper way to shoot negative film (B/W and colour) ... but it is, and always was, wrong for slide film. With the latter, you would expose for the highlights which means---surprise, surprise---get the highlights right and let the shadows fall where they may.

When thinking about it, it's not too hard to understand why negative and positive (slide) films require different strategies of exposure. After all, the highlights in a slide film are the shadows in a negative.

Today, shooting digital is pretty close to shooting slide film. In particular, you have to expose for the highlights, not for the shadows.


Quote
Now, with digital, the larger horror is blown highlights.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This exactly also used to be the horror with slide film, too. However, slightly blown highlights in a slide never looked as terrible as they do in a digital file, as over-exposed areas on film would roll off fairly gently into saturation. With digital, brightness will rise linearly with exposure until it smashes into saturation abruptly; no gentle roll-off here.


Quote
Has anyone worked out a scheme such as metering the highlights and opening up 1, 2, how many stops?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No. Because with digital, there is a better method. Increase the exposure until the histogram just touches the right-hand border, or the highlight warning in the camera display starts flashing, then back off a quarter or a third of an f-stop. Basically that's just the same as "expose for the highlights" always jused to be---just the way how to know when exposure is fine has changed with modern technology. So the new name for a well-known thing is "expose to the right" (ETTR)---the right-hand side of the histogram, that is. (By the way, expose for the shadows today would be called ETTL, i. e. expose to the left. But with digital that's not a sensible thing to do.)

-- Olaf
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 11:23:55 am by 01af »
Logged

Tony Beach

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
    • http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/twelveimages
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 12:22:26 pm »

Quote
Just use your histogram and exposure compensation. In very little time you will know your camera (sensor) so well that the second exposure nails the ETTR.
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Only if you are using uni-WB and proper in-camera settings; otherwise you will always be leaving exposure latitude (that's potential extra DR) on the table.  Besides that, bracketing and guessing is a guarantee of missing shots (they don't always wait for you to get the exposure right).

The answer to the OP's question depends on the camera.  Presuming you can actually find the relevant highlight you want to retain detail for, then with my D300 I typically can get about 3 stops positive EC from that using the Spot meter; with the D200 it is closer to 2 stops.  A better and quicker solution is to use Center-weighted metering and fully understand your camera's metering tendencies and true RAW latitude.  Again referencing my D300, the answer is usually +.7 (plus or minus .3) using Center-weighted metering, and then I pull the density to where I want the scene's overall density during RAW conversion -- for high DR scenes there may be no pulling at all, for lower DR scenes I may pull the scene a full stop or more.
Logged

bernie west

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
    • Wild Photo Australia
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 06:45:10 pm »

Quote
Only if you are using uni-WB and proper in-camera settings; otherwise you will always be leaving exposure latitude (that's potential extra DR) on the table.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208929\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's right.

I always get interesting comments on forums when I show examples of how a totally blown jpg can be saved (in the case where the raw data isn't blown).  A lot of people without a proper understanding of how digital capture works, say things like "Well, you are just covering up for the fact that you didn't get exposure right in-camera".  But I maintain that I DID get it right (as long as I haven't blown the raw data).  Clearly I didn't get it right according to Johnny "the jpeg" Technician in the Canon factory, but I would much rather control my own images through a proper understanding of linear raw capture.
Logged

lovell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 131
    • http://
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 04:18:06 pm »

Quote
No. Because with digital, there is a better method. Increase the exposure until the histogram just touches the right-hand border, or the highlight warning in the camera display starts flashing, then back off a quarter or a third of an f-stop. Basically that's just the same as "expose for the highlights" always jused to be---just the way how to know when exposure is fine has changed with modern technology. So the new name for a well-known thing is "expose to the right" (ETTR)---the right-hand side of the histogram, that is. (By the way, expose for the shadows today would be called ETTL, i. e. expose to the left. But with digital that's not a sensible thing to do.)

-- Olaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would disagree mostly with what you wrote.  It would be far better to:

1. Shoot raw.
2. Ascertain the primary element/s in your composition.
3. Apply EC until those elements are exposed just a bit over, with NO regard for possible blown highlights in the unimportant parts of the composition.
4. In post processing, "normalize" the exposure of the primary element/s.
5. Never judge exposure by the image displayed on the camera's LCD.  It lies too much and too many factors like brightness level, and ambiant light effect how the display looks.  Far better to use the histogram, although the blinkies that show on the image can be helpful.

There is this supersition that one must never blow highlights.  This is wrong. They can be blown judiciously for the sake of the primary element/s in the composition.

It is also wrong to shoot in such a way as to try to effect a particular histogram shape.  Every composition is different, and if a comp shows lots of shadow, then by golly the histo will show a profound lean left, and that is okay.

My method says to expose to the right, while always keeping the primary element/s in consideration.  Often a great image will in fact show blown highlights.  One must not necessarily expose until the histo is just touching the right border...this is not a good method at all, although there might be times when one should do this, but to make it a generalized blanket policy is not really good.

When shooting raw, the in-camera histogram will show blown highlights that are often not really blown until the highlights are more then 1/3rd blown, so there is lee way.  This is why one must not back off 1/3 to 1/2 stop as you assert.  

The in-camera histogram is based on the temporary tiny JPG that is created by the camera for the sake of providing an image to display on the camera's LCD.  This image is severly res'd down and has a dynamic range that is at least 1/3 stop narrower then the corresponding raw.  This small jpg gets created even if one shoots raw only.

In addition, it is best to get the white balance as close to perfect as possible even when shooting raw, as WB will effect exposure, even if it is changable during post processing.
Logged
After composition, everything else is secondary--Alfred Steiglitz, NYC, 1927.

I'm not afraid of death.  I just don't want to be there when it happens--Woody Allen, Annie Hall, '70s

lovell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 131
    • http://
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2008, 04:25:30 pm »

Quote
Only if you are using uni-WB and proper in-camera settings; otherwise you will always be leaving exposure latitude (that's potential extra DR) on the table.  Besides that, bracketing and guessing is a guarantee of missing shots (they don't always wait for you to get the exposure right).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208929\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is not true if one shoots raw.

And since raw ignores the in-camera parameter values, the ETTR method is the best way to capture raw data, and insures the widest DR is achieved in one's image.  Although WB is chanable with a raw image later in post processing, I like to get it as perfect as possible at the time the exposure is taken because the WB value will effect exposure.

I do agree with you, that bracketing is not a good way to shoot.  Leave braketing primarily to film shooters, who don't have the benefit of an LCD histogram.  Bracketing can make one miss shots, true what you wrote.  Same for light meters....I've not used my since years ago when I shot film....histograms are king!
Logged
After composition, everything else is secondary--Alfred Steiglitz, NYC, 1927.

I'm not afraid of death.  I just don't want to be there when it happens--Woody Allen, Annie Hall, '70s

feppe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2906
  • Oh this shows up in here!
    • Harri Jahkola Photography
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 04:36:44 pm »

Two points and a question:

1. Most (all?) RAW processors have the ability to bring back "blown" highlights. Just yesterday I was shooting in bright daylight and couldn't get ETTR exposure to acceptable levels without risking severe shadow noise. LR "Recovery" allowed me to pull back almost all the data in the blown clouds. I haven't done tests to see how "good" the data is, ie. how much color shift there is, yet, or how much leeway there is.
2. Bracketing is generally faster than tweaking an exposure using a histogram. Not as accurate of course, but faster.

Question: it seems that some are implying that white balance affects RAW - which I thought was not the case. I just checked my Canon's manual and it specifically says RAW allows me to change WB in post without degrading image quality.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 04:38:11 pm by feppe »
Logged

DarkPenguin

  • Guest
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2008, 05:50:53 pm »

Quote
Question: it seems that some are implying that white balance affects RAW - which I thought was not the case. I just checked my Canon's manual and it specifically says RAW allows me to change WB in post without degrading image quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209804\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

WB (and other in camera settings) impact the histogram.  So you might think you've blown a channel but haven't.  (Or have.)  Dunno if that is a universal truth.
Logged

Panopeeper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1805
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2008, 05:59:45 pm »

Quote
Dunno if that is a universal truth
Someone posted on another thread, that his MFDB displays raw histograms. I don't know which MFDB that was, but this appears logical, as those cameras don't have the multitude of settings, which are useful only for JPEG.
Logged
Gabor

Panopeeper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1805
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2008, 06:01:21 pm »

Quote
Although WB is chanable with a raw image later in post processing, I like to get it as perfect as possible at the time the exposure is taken because the WB value will effect exposure
This has been posted already somewhere above. It is still nonsense.
Logged
Gabor

Tony Beach

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
    • http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/twelveimages
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 01:04:45 am »

Only if you are using uni-WB and proper in-camera settings; otherwise you will always be leaving exposure latitude (that's potential extra DR) on the table.

Quote
This is not true if one shoots raw.

And since raw ignores the in-camera parameter values, the ETTR method is the best way to capture raw data, and insures the widest DR is achieved in one's image.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209800\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is no RAW histogram per se in any DSLR I'm aware of; the histogram you are using to evaluate exposure is based on an embedded JPEG which is based on "in-camera parameter values" (contrast, saturation, sharpening, and especially WB gain settings).  The native WB of my Nikon DSLRs are around 4350K with a -35 hue (yes, it's very green); that means any WB gain and correction of the hue to reflect accurate colors delivers an inaccurate histogram.  You can get a reasonably accurate histogram that reflects the RAW data by using uni-WB (zeroing out the WB gain and adjusting the hue), and by using a linear curve with no added saturation or sharpening.
Logged

dwdallam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2044
    • http://www.dwdallam.com
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 01:22:46 am »

Quote
There is this supersition that one must never blow highlights.  This is wrong. They can be blown judiciously for the sake of the primary element/s in the composition.


In addition, it is best to get the white balance as close to perfect as possible even when shooting raw, as WB will effect exposure, even if it is changable during post processing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Both accurate but the second has caveats.

There are parts of some images that will blow no matter what, such as chrome on a car and other specular highlights with other types photography. It doesn't mean the image is bad.

WB does affect exposure at least in post processing with ACR and that is a good reason to get it where you want it before processing. However, if you only stick to the WB you shot, then you are giving up a LOT of creativity when post processing.

Let's say you shoot a night scene with city lights. You want the image to come off cool so the sky blues out instead of blacks out. Fair enough. you shoot cool or in tungsten mode. Now you get home and decide you like it better at daylight so the lights are yellow and warm. What are you going to do, leave it cool?

If you can figure out how you want the WB though, such as a commercial studio shoot, then yeah nail it.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 01:28:41 am by dwdallam »
Logged

dwdallam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2044
    • http://www.dwdallam.com
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 01:25:08 am »

Quote
Question: it seems that some are implying that white balance affects RAW - which I thought was not the case. I just checked my Canon's manual and it specifically says RAW allows me to change WB in post without degrading image quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209804\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It does in ACR. If you get your highlights just where you want them, then change the WB, sometimes the highlight blow again. Many times you can crank up recovery though and offset the change. If not, then you need to mess with your exposure again.
Logged

Tony Beach

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
    • http://imageevent.com/tonybeach/twelveimages
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2008, 02:43:24 am »

Quote
It does in ACR. If you get your highlights just where you want them, then change the WB, sometimes the highlight blow again. Many times you can crank up recovery though and offset the change. If not, then you need to mess with your exposure again.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a persuasive reason not to use ACR.
Logged

dwdallam

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2044
    • http://www.dwdallam.com
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2008, 02:58:17 am »

Quote
That's a persuasive reason not to use ACR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It doesn't pose any problems really, unless ACR is doing something it should not be doing, which I doubt.
Logged

bernie west

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
    • Wild Photo Australia
Expose for highlights and.....?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2008, 03:49:28 am »

Quote
That's a persuasive reason not to use ACR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No it's not.  That's how white balance works.  All raw converters will do the same thing.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up