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Author Topic: Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?  (Read 24933 times)

TMARK

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2008, 07:07:16 pm »

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Some sobering facts

The "digital imaging expert" seems to understand of this subject about as much as most of the posters above, which is not much (if I am very generous).

Now perhaps it is time to consider some facts.

If and how far 16 bits are useful with MFDBs is a complicated matter, in most cases impossible to prove in either direction. I can prove on images of *certain* MFDBs, that there *is* a difference between 14bit and 16bit (slightly less noise in 16bit), but that proof shows, that the difference is *very, very tiny*, in fact it is useless.

The question needs to be adjusted a bit in order to become reasonable:

do MFDBs need greater bit depth than DSLRs?

When analysing for example Canon 1DsMkIII images, the same can be said: the difference between 12bit and 14bit is there, but very small (note: even so I am a proponent of 14bit recording).

When comparing 16bit, 14bit and 12bit images of a Sinar eM54, it can be shown, that reducing to 12bit does cause practical image degradation.

It is clear, that the larger dynamic range of some MFDBs *requires* more bits than a camera with 2 stops lower dynamic range.

However, the most sobering fact is, that the Phase One cameras' last two bits are not only useless, but they are *detrimental* to the image. Luckily, the raw processors don't make any use of those bits, except in extreme circumstances (that's what caused Edmund complain about striations with his P45+).

The following captures depict three segments of the image CF000841, shot by a Phase One P30+ by the fellow LL poster 203. The first one shows the original, with +3 1/2 EV. The second one shows the 15th bit only and the third one is created by the 16th bit only (i.e. the lowest order bit) . The next four captures show two other crops, with only the 15th respectively 16th bit.

The waves and horizontal strips are artifacts of the sensor, as is the vertical separation line, caused by the "stitching" of the sensor chips.

These captures demonstrate, that the two low order bits of Phase One raw files *must not* be used (this is not a speciality of the P30+, I saw teh same on the P25+ and P45+ as well). In other words: the 16 bit recording is worthless with these cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really like Sabretts.


[attachment=7301:attachment][attachment=7301:attachment][attachment=7301:attachm
ent][attachment=7301:attachment][attachment=7301:attachment]
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 07:08:15 pm by TMARK »
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hdomke

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Does Higher Bit-depth Matter?
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2008, 09:52:16 pm »

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Henry, if you've already made up your mind, why continue to beat a dead horse? Act on your conclusions.

I'm not dissing you here, I'm just confused about where you're coming from and what your purpose in posting this thread is. A lot of people on this forum think you are just trying to trash MFDBs, that you are carrying the torch for Canon. Hence the hostility you get on this forum.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205070\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mort,
I appreciate your comment and will stop posting on this forum about this topic.

I'm sorry if people on this forum thought I was trying to trash MFDBs. I had no such intent. I was seriously considering buying a MF system, but wanted to look carefully before I jumped. My limited testing did not show a clear difference when comparing my 1DsMk3 and a couple of MF backs. That surprised me. I wanted to hear from those with more experience.  

Nor am I wanting to promote Canon. I've happily owned and used Hasselblad, Nikon and Canon systems over the last three decades. All have served me well.

Thanks to all who provided feedback.
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Henry

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Panopeeper

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« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2008, 01:58:19 am »

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They are world class because they are artists in the commercial realm. They, for the most part, don't give a rat's ass about the scientific bullshit
I am very impressed, but I don't know, for what you mean it.

Is this an explanation for the relative low level of digital literacy, or an excuse for the schoolyard bully like behaviour?
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Gabor

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« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2008, 05:15:27 am »

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Henry,

I think this is a fair comment to make: By the looks of your work, you won't really see much difference in looking at files between a Canon 1DsIII and MFDBs. You aren't pushing your files past straight forward exposures and in no way pushing the abilities of any of these cameras through your chosen content of shooting. For people who are truly "bending" their files for look and style (very evident in fashion and many other genres of photography), then the advantages of MFDBs or just higher bit depth will show for sure.

For Panopeeper,

Here is a "sobering fact", you and I and many more here are graced with the participation of some world class photographers on this forum. They are world class because they are artists in the commercial realm. They, for the most part, don't give a rat's ass about the scientific bullshit. ART and CREATIVITY are, in my view and many talented photographers' views, the foremost keys to unlocking photography, not all this mumbo jumbo "anal-yzing".

I have a degree in Chemistry (it was easy for me), I was an organic chemist for several years. Science is soul-less without creativity of how to use it. Photography is soul-less without creativity to harness vision. In the end, the vision can last a lifetime or many lifetimes; gadgets, tools, programs, and anything else which in and of itself accomplishes nothing without human mastery will erode rapidly.

It's all about the image. I can look at the work from talented photographers (a hell of a lot more talented than I am) and see that they had that image in their head. The camera, hardware, software, film, scanners, lighting, etc. were just the means to the end, nothing else.

I'll also add, I stick around here because the forum is about problem solving so we can work more fluidly to create our art, not problem making. There are a lot of photographers with different shooting methods and in different photo genres, all that put together makes for a wealth of info. 1's, 0's, bits are just the least informational items possible.
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Well said.
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juicy

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« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2008, 03:55:55 pm »

« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 05:32:05 pm by juicy »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2008, 04:29:20 pm »

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All 14-bit A/Ds or 16-bit A/Ds are not created equal. I don't have any hard data to back this up, but I'm pretty sure all of the new 14-bit DSLRs are using actual 14-bit A/Ds, which means they are getting, at best, 10 to 12 bits of real, noise-free data, assuming they used expensive low noise A/Ds. Furthermore, I believe that at least some of the MFDBs are using more expensive 16-bit A/Ds (and maybe even higher bit depths), and downsampling to 14-bits (throwing away the noisiest bits), and then saving those 14-bits as 16-bit RGB values (a bit confusing, I know).

Mort54, you seem to be implying that all ADCs are adding 2 bits of noise as a rule of thumb but this is not true. In fact it is even conceivable that a poor quality 16 bit SDC will have a worse SNR than a 14 bit ADC.

Just look at this spec chart from Texas Instruments of 16bit ADCs. The SNR on these ranges from 79 to 95dB! That nearly 3 bits difference.
http://focus.ti.com/paramsearch/docs/param...R_2000084|EQ|16

So at least we can agree that not all ADCs are created equal. It is quite possible for a stunning 14bit circuit to outperform a poor 16bit competitor.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2008, 04:35:34 pm »

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Granted, these pictures were perfectly exposed and did not need radical adjustments; but in the real world, my exposures are almost always correct.

Did you test scenes with high dynamic range?
If the sensors from two cameras have different DR then how do you compare the exposures? Do you consider them equal when they are both equally weighted around 50%, or both exposed to just under the point of clipping? These are two different methods, and the former does not take full advantage of the higher DR sensor.
Actually you provide so little data about this comparison that I can't make any useful judgments at all, sorry.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2008, 04:38:38 pm »

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can anyone explain to me why i should work with a digital back if it only offers 3D,
meanwhile my much cheaper canon offers 5D. aside from its better iso performance?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Rainer, I hope you haven't wasted your money already. You can get 6D for only $70!
[a href=\"http://www.digitalgraphicsresources.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=664]http://www.digitalgraphicsresources.com/in...PROD&ProdID=664[/url]
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2008, 04:48:42 pm »

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The following captures depict three segments of the image CF000841, shot by a Phase One P30+ by the fellow LL poster 203. The first one shows the original, with +3 1/2 EV. The second one shows the 15th bit only and the third one is created by the 16th bit only (i.e. the lowest order bit) . The next four captures show two other crops, with only the 15th respectively 16th bit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting. You'd think that P1 would pad out the 2 least significant bits, even though this really doesn't have an impact in the real world unless you are stretching/pushing the files hard.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2008, 05:02:31 pm »

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Rainer, I hope you haven't wasted your money already. You can get 6D for only $70!
http://www.digitalgraphicsresources.com/in...PROD&ProdID=664
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
no. i still dont want to paint my images myself although i am aware that these deliver the best bit depth for its money. but after photokina i will think again about that.
did you saw this ?
[attachment=7324:attachment]
true 9 colors roylgglccdcb sensor which increase its resolution without any interpolation.
( stands for red-orange-yelow-lightgreen-green-lightcyan-cyan-darkcyan-brown sensor )

anyway still not perfect for b+w.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 05:06:09 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

jimgolden

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« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2008, 05:12:08 pm »

"I really like Sabretts."

worlds best hotdog by far...altho I like me a Hebrew National once in a while as well...
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Mort54

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« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2008, 05:33:08 pm »

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Mort54, you seem to be implying that all ADCs are adding 2 bits of noise as a rule of thumb but this is not true.
I certainly didn't mean to imply that, and thought I was quite clear that noise figures vary considerably across different A/Ds. I specifically pointed out that not all 14-bit or 16-bit A/Ds were created equal. In fact, that was essentially my main point.

I was simply trying to point out, without getting too verbose and technical, that there were different grades of A/Ds, and that it was certainly possible to get good quality A/Ds with relatively low noise figures, and poorer quality A/Ds with higher noise figures, all with the same bit depth. I wasn't making any absolute statements about the number of bits of noise present, since my whole point was that noise was a figure that varies greatly with different A/Ds. I was trying to make the point that just quoting bit depth was, by itself, somewhat meaningless, without also discussing the quality of the A/Ds involved.

The 2 to 4 bits that I mentioned several times was offered as an example of a relatively good, low noise A/D that still had the relatively high sample rate capabilities needed for imaging applications. You can certainly get lower noise A/Ds, but they also tend to be available only in lower sampling rates. My example was also based on a quick survey of a few suppliers I usually use in my designs (my day job). It wasn't an exhaustive survey. I ended up using a Linear Tech model as my example of a good, low noise, high sample rate A/D. I didn't look at TI models, and it's certainly possible they have something even better than the parts I looked at.

I'm sure I could have written my original post more clearly, but by the end of my second paragraph, I was already boring myself to tears :-)

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In fact it is even conceivable that a poor quality 16 bit SDC will have a worse SNR than a 14 bit ADC.
Absoulutely true.

Quote
So at least we can agree that not all ADCs are created equal. It is quite possible for a stunning 14bit circuit to outperform a poor 16bit competitor.
Again, absolutely true. One other point I tried to make in my earlier post, however, is that given the higher costs of MFDBs, it is likely that the MFDB designers probably have a higher parts budget to work with than lower cost DSLR designers. And that, therefore, it was also likely that MFDBs use better quality A/Ds than DSLRs do. Which again tried to make my overall point that simply comparing bit depths was meaningless, without also knowing what kind of A/Ds were used. There are obviously a lot of conjectures in this last point, however, but hopefully I made that clear in my original comments.


Regards,
Mort.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 05:46:08 pm by Mort54 »
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I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My

jonstewart

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« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2008, 06:37:13 pm »

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[attachment=7324:attachment]
true 9 colors roylgglccdcb sensor which increase its resolution without any interpolation.
( stands for red-orange-yelow-lightgreen-green-lightcyan-cyan-darkcyan-brown sensor )

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 
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Jon Stewart
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2008, 08:09:13 pm »

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You'd think that P1 would pad out the 2 least significant bits, even though this really doesn't have an impact in the real world unless you are stretching/pushing the files hard.
I don't know what to think of this issue.  "Padding out" those bits amounts to the admission, that the camera delivers only 14 usable bits; I guess that must not happen b/c of marketing considerations.

Think of this:

1. When Edmund complained about the striations his P45+ images, the answer was, IIRC, that ISO 800 is not really meant to be used (I can't cite it literally, this was a post long ago).

2. After further insistance, his camera got replaced.

However, detail analysis reveals, that

a. the horizontal banding does not depend on ISO at all; obviously it occurs at a later stage,

b. the replacement camera is even worse than the first one was. I just took a look and found, that Edmund's first copy of P45+ created sensor artifacts in the *two* low order bits, invisible in the third bit, but the replacement camera shows this in the third low order bit as well (at ISO 100, though I do not think this makes any difference).
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Gabor

thsinar

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« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2008, 12:31:26 pm »

just read this thread: you guys make me crack!

 

I'm so sorry I wasn't available to join the food and dimensionality orgy!

Cheers to all,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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reissme

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« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2008, 07:35:01 am »

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I certainly didn't mean to imply that, and thought I was quite clear that noise figures vary considerably across different A/Ds. I specifically pointed out that not all 14-bit or 16-bit A/Ds were created equal. In fact, that was essentially my main point.

I was simply trying to point out, without getting too verbose and technical, that there were different grades of A/Ds, and that it was certainly possible to get good quality A/Ds with relatively low noise figures, and poorer quality A/Ds with higher noise figures, all with the same bit depth. I wasn't making any absolute statements about the number of bits of noise present, since my whole point was that noise was a figure that varies greatly with different A/Ds. I was trying to make the point that just quoting bit depth was, by itself, somewhat meaningless, without also discussing the quality of the A/Ds involved.

The 2 to 4 bits that I mentioned several times was offered as an example of a relatively good, low noise A/D that still had the relatively high sample rate capabilities needed for imaging applications. You can certainly get lower noise A/Ds, but they also tend to be available only in lower sampling rates. My example was also based on a quick survey of a few suppliers I usually use in my designs (my day job). It wasn't an exhaustive survey. I ended up using a Linear Tech model as my example of a good, low noise, high sample rate A/D. I didn't look at TI models, and it's certainly possible they have something even better than the parts I looked at.

I'm sure I could have written my original post more clearly, but by the end of my second paragraph, I was already boring myself to tears :-)
Absoulutely true.
Again, absolutely true. One other point I tried to make in my earlier post, however, is that given the higher costs of MFDBs, it is likely that the MFDB designers probably have a higher parts budget to work with than lower cost DSLR designers. And that, therefore, it was also likely that MFDBs use better quality A/Ds than DSLRs do. Which again tried to make my overall point that simply comparing bit depths was meaningless, without also knowing what kind of A/Ds were used. There are obviously a lot of conjectures in this last point, however, but hopefully I made that clear in my original comments.
Regards,
Mort.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear Mort and friends,
One should do side by side comparison between Canon 1dsm3 14 BIT and 16 bit Phase One P30+ of the same scene containing bright highlights and deep shadows with lots of colors (fruit and vegetables), in 100 ASA, in raw, same development, and should show enlargments 100% of side by side same area in order to show and convince which has better DR, lower noise and clearer distinct details in shadows and highlights, instead of bla, bla, bla.....and make unpopular the one that wants to know what camera to choose for his own jobs. so simple and elementary.
Declarations, assumptions and theories of self assurance, one sided photographers, are not a substitute of scientific real tests that everyone can see and judge.
Thanks,
 Menachem Reiss. www.reiss.co.il
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ejmartin

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« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2008, 08:24:53 am »

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Dear Mort and friends,
One should do side by side comparison between Canon 1dsm3 14 BIT and 16 bit Phase One P30+ of the same scene containing bright highlights and deep shadows with lots of colors (fruit and vegetables), in 100 ASA, in raw, same development, and should show enlargments 100% of side by side same area in order to show and convince which has better DR, lower noise and clearer distinct details in shadows and highlights, instead of bla, bla, bla.....and make unpopular the one that wants to know what camera to choose for his own jobs. so simple and elementary.
Declarations, assumptions and theories of self assurance, one sided photographers, are not a substitute of scientific real tests that everyone can see and judge.
Thanks,
 Menachem Reiss. www.reiss.co.il
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My offer from the other thread to analyze MFDB's still stands:

Testing needn't be done side-by-side, current DSLR's have been analyzed already. Anyone with a MFDB they want tested should provide the following:

1. A pair of identical images of a colorchecker chart (GM is fine, others are probably OK too as long as the squares are big enough), slightly OOF and filling a large part of the frame; lens two stops down from wide open (to minimize vignetting but not to introduce dust bunnies); shot at the camera's base ISO (usually 100); metered properly. The images should be shot in succession, waiting for the buffer to clear before taking the second one. Tripod of course, fixed light source uniformly illuminating the target.  Remotely actuated would be great.

2. Same as (1), but three stops overexposed relative to the metering for (1).

3. Same as (1) but three stops underexposed relative to the metering for (1).
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reissme

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« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2008, 09:09:17 am »

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My offer from the other thread to analyze MFDB's still stands:

Testing needn't be done side-by-side, current DSLR's have been analyzed already. Anyone with a MFDB they want tested should provide the following:

1. A pair of identical images of a colorchecker chart (GM is fine, others are probably OK too as long as the squares are big enough), slightly OOF and filling a large part of the frame; lens two stops down from wide open (to minimize vignetting but not to introduce dust bunnies); shot at the camera's base ISO (usually 100); metered properly. The images should be shot in succession, waiting for the buffer to clear before taking the second one. Tripod of course, fixed light source uniformly illuminating the target.  Remotely actuated would be great.

2. Same as (1), but three stops overexposed relative to the metering for (1).

3. Same as (1) but three stops underexposed relative to the metering for (1).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205660\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Again if you want to be scientifically precise and not comparing photographers ability,  light difference, dof and lens difference, than:
One should do side by side comparison between Canon 1dsm3 14 BIT and 16 bit Phase One P30+ of the same scene containing bright highlights and deep shadows with lots of colors (fruit and vegetables), in 100 ASA, in raw, same development, and should show enlargments 100% of side by side same area in order to show and convince which has better DR, lower noise and clearer distinct details in shadows and highlights, instead of blah, blah, blah.....and make unpopular the one that wants to know what camera to choose for his own jobs. so simple and elementary.
I agree to add to the side by side set: a colorchecker chart, GM is fine. three stops overexposed and three stops underexposed will add to see DR
One can shoot the  Phase One P30+ in f: 4 and the 1dsm3 in F:2.8 (compensating for exposure) in one test in order to see 3D effect on both cameras (putting distant and suitable, nice background full of out of focus items).
Declarations, assumptions and theories of self assurance, one sided photographers, are not a substitute of scientific real tests that everyone can see and judge.
Thanks,
Menachem Reiss. www.reiss.co.il
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reissme

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« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2008, 09:17:05 am »

Quote
My offer from the other thread to analyze MFDB's still stands:

Testing needn't be done side-by-side, current DSLR's have been analyzed already. Anyone with a MFDB they want tested should provide the following:

1. A pair of identical images of a colorchecker chart (GM is fine, others are probably OK too as long as the squares are big enough), slightly OOF and filling a large part of the frame; lens two stops down from wide open (to minimize vignetting but not to introduce dust bunnies); shot at the camera's base ISO (usually 100); metered properly. The images should be shot in succession, waiting for the buffer to clear before taking the second one. Tripod of course, fixed light source uniformly illuminating the target.  Remotely actuated would be great.

2. Same as (1), but three stops overexposed relative to the metering for (1).

3. Same as (1) but three stops underexposed relative to the metering for (1).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205660\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Again if you want to be scientifically precise and not comparing photographers ability,  light difference, dof and lens difference, than:
One should do side by side comparison between Canon 1dsm3 14 BIT and 16 bit Phase One P30+ of the same scene containing bright highlights and deep shadows with lots of colors (fruit and vegetables), in 100 ASA, in raw, same development, and should show enlargments 100% of side by side same area in order to show and convince which has better DR, lower noise and clearer distinct details in shadows and highlights, instead of blah, blah, blah.....and make unpopular the one that wants to know what camera to choose for his own jobs. so simple and elementary.
I agree to add to the side by side set: a colorchecker chart, GM is fine. three stops overexposed and three stops underexposed will add to see DR
One can shoot the  Phase One P30+ in f: 4 and the 1dsm3 in F:2.8 (compensating for exposure) in one test in order to see 3D effect on both cameras (putting distant and suitable, nice background full of out of focus items).
Declarations, assumptions and theories of self assurance, one sided photographers, are not a substitute of scientific real tests that everyone can see and judge.
Thanks,
Menachem Reiss. www.reiss.co.il
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skid00skid00

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« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2008, 11:00:53 am »

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One should do side by side comparison between Canon 1dsm3 14 BIT and 16 bit
... same development,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not quite the same development, as (I believe) the resulting RAW files do not have the same tone curve.  (I don't think they *are* 100% linear in RAW space...)

And, of course, who wants to find out just how much they might have overpaid?  I remember the shock I received, comparing a 1Ds and G9 in good light and proper exposure.....
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