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James R Russell

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Down to the wire
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 01:00:06 pm »

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It's relevant to the "Learn to see the image" remark. Best way to learn to see the image is to just concentrate on that part and leave everything else to the tech guys. What does the image have to do with the camera ?

What I mean is - the best exercise to learn may be to tell someone else to run the camera and concentrate on the rest of the set.

Edmund
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I don't agree and understand I'm not Jealous or bitter or even give a shit for that matter.

Your talking about someone  who buys their photogrpahs and has the audacity to swing their arms around like some Roman director and then say they made the photo.

Maybe there is talent in learning how to leverage laziness and a self centered attitude  to some form of popular success, but there is probably talent in become a Drug Lord, though it really is nothing to aspire to.

Personally I don't care about these people any more than I care about whether Brittney Spears wears panties.

These "photographers" are not in the same business I am in and the only thing we have in common is we both hold cameras from time to time.

The point that I take objection to is you say she will or is a success and I find nothing sucessful about having someone else do your work for you then claim the results.


JR
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etrump

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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 01:25:25 pm »

Philosophical commentary aside, I was faced with the same decision and went with the Mamy/P30+.

Coming from Canon equipment to this combination I was blown away by the IQ and usability of the combination.  The Hassy kind of turned me off with their closed architecture but in the end the P30+ won out because of its long exposure capabilities.  

I think you definitely want to forego the AFD II for the AFD III or Phase Body if you decide on the Mamy.  

I am a little puzzled by your IQ comments since they are almost identical at low ISO using the same basic hardware.  Could be you had a bad lens in the mix but the newer Mamy glass is pretty outstanding on the P30+.

BTW: What does Brittany Spears panties have to do with this anyway?
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TMARK

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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2008, 01:28:42 pm »

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I met with a very nice lady photographer yesterday.

Her styling of the models is very nice.  She has beautiful images. She knows about fashion.
She doesn't have a usable camera so she expects to have one supplied.
She expects a technician to drive the computer.
She expects an assistant to do the lighting.
She expects a retoucher to handle color and postproduction.
She expects all the above accessories (hardware+slaves) to cost E300/day.
She actually manages to get all the above (Hassy+slaves+lights+studio) for E300/day.
I'm sure she'll make a name for herself - in my experience these are the people who get somewhere in the fashion world - ruthless with an understanding that if you know the right people any special skills can be got for almost free.

I'm really sorry for you James. You still belong to the old school who think that actually knowing how to do a job is necessary for success. The rest of the world knows that the only necessity is to have the connections to get the job and to find people who get it done, as long as the successful person can sign the result and keep the money.

Edmund
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This hasn't been my experience.  There are photographers who don't own anything.  They order packages from a studio, then hire a tech and a gaffer and a set designer and a stylist.  I've been the gaffer in this situation.  We have preproduction meetings and we draw up lighting diagrams.  We then have  a lighting day.  Everyone shows up on set, all of the gear is delivered, we set up, we shoot, the tech, client and photog make some selects/proofs are emailed while we strike the set, selects go to a retoucher etc . . .  Sort of the same deal you are describing but the shooter actually knows what/how to light, how that camera works, etc.

To be honest, my experience with people who have connections but not much talent or the skill to execute a vision is that they fade quickly.  My wife is an MUA.  She was asked by a friend of hers, who is a model with DNA, to do makeup for a test shoot for an "emerging" photographer.  My wife says of course, anything for you.  The "emerging" photographer was a complete ass.  He is well connected, about 22.  He was nervous and rude, never paid my wife the customary and agreed kit fee of $75, and never sent her prints for her book.  This was a few years ago.  This guy isn't taking pictures now.
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eronald

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Down to the wire
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2008, 01:37:53 pm »

James,

 Of course I'm being ironic, but I do wonder whether we shouldn't be using the cinema paradigm of separating production, direction, photography/light and postprod and crediting every member of the team. Which would give exactly the right amount of (deserved) credit to those people who can pull things together and also to their associates.  This would also encourage people to stay with what they are best at.


Edmund

Quote
I don't agree and understand I'm not Jealous or bitter or even give a shit for that matter.

Your talking about someone  who buys their photogrpahs and has the audacity to swing their arms around like some Roman director and then say they made the photo.

Maybe there is talent in learning how to leverage laziness and a self centered attitude  to some form of popular success, but there is probably talent in become a Drug Lord, though it really is nothing to aspire to.

Personally I don't care about these people any more than I care about whether Brittney Spears wears panties.

These "photographers" are not in the same business I am in and the only thing we have in common is we both hold cameras from time to time.

The point that I take objection to is you say she will or is a success and I find nothing sucessful about having someone else do your work for you then claim the results.
JR
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2008, 01:57:23 pm »

Quote
JR,

...

I think people focus on their cameras way too much.  What makes a picture isn't the dynamic range of your "larger than full frame 35" digital sensor or the razor sharpness of your H lenses. Its the same as it always has been:  subject, composition and light.  If you learn to light, put some thought into composition, any subject can be made interesting.  Learn how to light and even a crappy subject can produce a beautiful picture even taken with a Holga or an old 35mm FM2.
...
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I would agree but I would love to see the fashion/photo industry have a no ring-flash month.. just a month of shooting with out a ringflash.. maybe the use has gone down but talk about being locked into and relying on equipment to make your look.. as photographers we are equipment dependent.. the digital revolution made us old guys go back to learning new technologies, I never wanted to be a image processor but an image maker.. but guess what I spend time doing now.. processing/tweaking the image.. and as a finished image they are better than the film I use to deliver.. I hate to say this but most of the clients are none the wiser...they may recognize a fad or style but very few non photographers can look and judge a photograph, hell, most photographers can't..  I wish I had more clients that could see the difference; appreciate light and composition, but I shoot to my standards and compromise as needed.
Getting back to the question.. it may seem like a big choice but it really isn't.. just pick one and do it.
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TMARK

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Down to the wire
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 02:21:45 pm »

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I would agree but I would love to see the fashion/photo industry have a no ring-flash month.. just a month of shooting with out a ringflash.. maybe the use has gone down but talk about being locked into and relying on equipment to make your look.. as photographers we are equipment dependent.. the digital revolution made us old guys go back to learning new technologies, I never wanted to be a image processor but an image maker.. but guess what I spend time doing now.. processing/tweaking the image.. and as a finished image they are better than the film I use to deliver.. I hate to say this but most of the clients are none the wiser...they may recognize a fad or style but very few non photographers can look and judge a photograph, hell, most photographers can't..  I wish I had more clients that could see the difference; appreciate light and composition, but I shoot to my standards and compromise as needed.
Getting back to the question.. it may seem like a big choice but it really isn't.. just pick one and do it.
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I'll pass your "no ring" request on to the powers that be, but use the ring wisely and it doesn't look like a ring, rather a big fill source, especially outside or behind a big sheet of difusion.  

I think that even the most depraved, materialist, semi-educated, striving douchbag junior designer at Saatchi can recognize and tell the difference between a crappy photograph and a well executed, well lit photograph.  They can tell whats good, assuming the visual grammer isn't to sophisticated, because they are involved in making images.  The problem clients are the ones who are not involved or even interested in visuals.  

Again to the OP:  pick one based on workflow and which camera makes sings to you.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 02:44:54 pm by TMARK »
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2008, 02:52:17 pm »

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I think that even the most depraved, materialist, semi-educated, striving douchbag junior designer at Saatchi can recognize and tell the difference between a crappy photograph and a well executed, well lit photograph.  They can tell whats good, assuming the visual grammer isn't to sophisticated, because they are involved in making images.  The problem clients are the ones who are not involved or even interested in visuals. 

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I use to have this opinion.. I don't think so anymore.. as a whole, most art directors and designers are highly over-rated imho..
they are many that see better than photographers.. but most are only slightly ahead of the visually clueless clients they serve.  Oh they think they are miles apart but how many agencies are run by creatives?  not many.. so we are all kissing ass to the new marketing director of xyz, inc. who up til last month was asst. to the purchasing dept manager..sorry to be so cynical.. my last job was/is killing me with second guessing.." we might know it when we see it"  backseat driving... okay I am done now and feel much better.
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Rob C

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« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2008, 03:40:49 pm »

TMARK

You must really be careful with girlfriends: there´s that musical manual about the Forty(?) Ways to leave your Lover which might stand you in good stead, though it´s probably out of production now...

As I mentioned in my recent couple of posts about Mz Leibovitz´s documentary, she seems to do very well with a Mamiya 6x7, still with film insofar as I could make out; the Leica certainly was a film one.-

Rob C
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 03:42:18 pm by Rob C »
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2008, 03:45:08 pm »

Yeah Mark you are right. Light is everything. I also invest more in my lighting equipment than in camera stuff. I own almost all bron lighting stuff you can buy. Ok I got most of it for half price (I life near the factory) but lighting is key to me.
If you wanna build up your portfolio it is important that you can hit the street at any time and be ready for anything you have in mind. It will slow you down if you have to rent your light all the time and it will cost more at the end.
I would rather buy a 5D and a lot of light than start out with a MF cam and almost no light.
You will get much further that way.

I went total digital 4 years ago with the 1Ds mark2. Now I got the Mark3 and I'm thinking about a hassy for the first time. It's not about pixels more about DR, framing and flash synch.
After 4 years I finaly would say that I'm ready for the next step.(I had an RZ in the film days)
So I would start out with the 1Ds3 and a lot of light. That will bring you very, very far.

Other than that, I would go the hassy way. Everything is streamlined.
Like Apple. One brand and no one else to blame.
Ah and did I say 800th flash sync  

Tim
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2008, 03:49:03 pm »

Quote
1. H3D 1/800th shutter vs 645 1/4000th


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645 with flash 1/125

h1 with flash 1/800

If you are flash monkey you may well findyouself wanting to hurl the mamiya out of the window

or at least by a RZ and more lenses


-----------

James - Im glad you think skill and talent win - most encouraging

S
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2008, 04:16:10 pm »

Quote
645 with flash 1/125

h1 with flash 1/800

If you are flash monkey you may well findyouself wanting to hurl the mamiya out of the window

or at least by a RZ and more lenses
-----------

James - Im glad you think skill and talent win - most encouraging

S
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Skill and talent always win the day but I do think great gear in your hands and the real knowledge of getting the most out of it helps win the day. I do believe in having the technical savy to know your shit to deliver the art. Some want to shoot a Holga great have a blast i lived in the dark days and was raised on the old school stuff and i thank my stars i learned that way but I am not on this planet to struggle to get my art either. Give me the best tools to make my life a little easier. It's a balance and i enjoy that balance. I think we need to remember part of your skill is mastering your tools also or else you walk into a wall every day.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 04:17:47 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2008, 07:25:10 pm »

Quote
James,

 Of course I'm being ironic, but I do wonder whether we shouldn't be using the cinema paradigm of separating production, direction, photography/light and postprod and crediting every member of the team. Which would give exactly the right amount of (deserved) credit to those people who can pull things together and also to their associates.  This would also encourage people to stay with what they are best at.
Edmund
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Edmund you break my brain, because though I find you interesting, I'm not really clear on what you do.

But to get back to your quote.

Yes, in a lot of instances, (mine and others) still shoots begin to resemble a small cinema production and when the vehicle warrants I give credit where credit is due.

[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/paris_prod2.mov]http://www.russellrutherford.com/paris_prod2.mov[/url]

Then again, the still business is way different than the moving picture business.  For  one we have no unions, gauranteed starting wages, health care and insurance for crew or even for the photographer so we are in a much different business model.  

Also on a cinema shoot the director is not required to hold a camera, craft the light, even direct the light, so even though every director comes with a different skill set and can work differently, their is no slight or shame in being a director that can't load an Arriflex.

Still photography is based on a different tradition where the photographer does multiple duties and works as the director, the DP, the camera operator and usually the lighting director.

So, most of us would probably never think about Hitchcock loading a Maxwell, we would also never think about Weston turning to some student from Art Center (if there was an Art Center then)  and saying "I don't know what to do, so just make it like this spread that Man Ray shot.

In all the photographic world, fashion gets the worst rap (probably deservedly) because a lot of fashion photographers know more about a blow drier than a Mamiya, but just because that is one business model that works, it doesn't mean it should be everyone's way of doing business.

But to take this back to the original thought which is what camera to buy?  Buy what you want but remember that the difference between an 18mpx back and a 31 mpx back means nothing to 99.99999999999% of all the clients in the world.

The ability to frame to fit a layout, make a color that is unique, deliver on deadline, process with ease, shoot without breakdowns and issues are a lot more important than just boasting about megapixels and/or trying to save $3,000.  

Trust me on this the wrong camera purchase will cost any photographer a lot more than $3,000 and I stand by my buy an RZ.  Actualy I would say buy anything that allows you to use different lenses, not just the manufacturer supplied half dozen or so.

This was shot withh that Russian Tilt shift and I would have a hard time doing this with any other lens.



JR
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hobbsr

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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2008, 07:46:52 pm »

Hi Everyone,

Thanks again for the very interesting views and comments. I think that the key to the whole business is have ideas that we execute via a format in this case photography is a format to communicate our ideas. We all needs tools that assist in that task. The craft is the craft and no camera or lens will help a bad idea become good or a bad image become great just as photoshop can not save the world. I have over my brief time back behind a camera looked to get back to basics and create great images, back to using the craft and skill to create the image.

The move and this thread is about helping me have a tool to support that process. I have some key questiosn that you all might be able to assist with:

1. Will the H3D 1/800th shutter speed be to limiting?
2. The H3D has the focus option to align the back with the body but I was told this was only available on the H3D II?
3. Can you purchase just the H3D body also can the H3D back work on other H system bodies like H1 or H2?

Lastly I really would like so clear views to the pros and cons of these systems based on your own decisions. I know both are great systems and in some ways I can not go worng but as James as pointed out the workflow will be key.

I have tested both systems but only in a limited way based on availability of demos and the H3D is a used body. but I have only shot with a P30+ and am not sure if I go and get the P30 that the IQ will be very different? I know that the + will of course have some improvements.

Thanks again for your thoughts
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James R Russell

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Down to the wire
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2008, 07:54:30 pm »

Quote
Hi Everyone,

Thanks again for the very interesting views and comments. I think that the key to the whole business is have ideas that we execute via a format in this case photography is a format to communicate our ideas. We all needs tools that assist in that task. The craft is the craft and no camera or lens will help a bad idea become good or a bad image become great just as photoshop can not save the world. I have over my brief time back behind a camera looked to get back to basics and create great images, back to using the craft and skill to create the image.

The move and this thread is about helping me have a tool to support that process. I have some key questiosn that you all might be able to assist with:

1. Will the H3D 1/800th shutter speed be to limiting?
2. The H3D has the focus option to align the back with the body but I was told this was only available on the H3D II?
3. Can you purchase just the H3D body also can the H3D back work on other H system bodies like H1 or H2?

Lastly I really would like so clear views to the pros and cons of these systems based on your own decisions. I know both are great systems and in some ways I can not go worng but as James as pointed out the workflow will be key.

I have tested both systems but only in a limited way based on availability of demos and the H3D is a used body. but I have only shot with a P30+ and am not sure if I go and get the P30 that the IQ will be very different? I know that the + will of course have some improvements.

Thanks again for your thoughts
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Nobody can answer this for you but a word of caution, if the file won't open directly in photoshop then copy off 3,000 dot whatever files and covert them and see how well that works for you and process them in photoshop or lightroom to see if you like the look.

The reason I bring this up is not because I'm in love with PS or lightroom, but because I know that all the manufacturer's softwares come and go.  Overall I think the Phase software is the most stable I've used, especially for adjusting batch images and making jpegs, but they can all have glitches and every manufacturer has their main software in development right now, which means they are all working out some kind of bug, so the standby is photoshop or lightroom.

Now saying that I process at least half my single files to finish in Brian's Raw Developer because it just has the best look for every camera I use.

It's a little clunky, not that great for batching but for a single file, man it's the digital answer to make your own beautiful film.

Also remember if you buy into a system that does make you do file conversion from the makers file to a dng you probably are going to double your storage space and until you have 60 terabytes of data you won't understand what an issue this can become.

JR
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eronald

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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2008, 08:31:07 pm »

I second this. RD is spectacular. Cheap, deserves greater exposure.
And if you have Canon, Canon's DPP is also very spectacular for color and sharpness.

Here in Paris what I hear often is that the photographer is the one who talks to the client. The assistant is the one who takes the shots.

Edmund

Quote
Now saying that I process at least half my single files to finish in Brian's Raw Developer because it just has the best look for every camera I use.

It's a little clunky, not that great for batching but for a single file, man it's the digital answer to make your own beautiful film.

JR
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j.miller

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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2008, 09:35:13 pm »

Or you buy the system that best fits your needs (both camera and software), and learn to use the "necessary" software just as every MFDB user has. Did photographers wake-up one day, and miraculously know how to use (and navigate) such an "intuitive" software as CaptureOne. I don't think so...

By the way, Hasselblad certainly does not require you export as a DNG. Processing .fff files direclty in Phocus or FlexColor offers numerous image quality and work-flow advantages over a DNG workflow. Isn't that the point, finding the appropriate (or ideal) tool for the job. In my experience, newer and better tools (on occasion) require newer and better skills.

Speaking of a overcoming cumbersome RAW file work-flows. How does RAW file editing with no required side-car / XML files sound? As this has been a feature of the .fff file format since it's inception (almost 15 years ago).

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote
...Also remember if you buy into a system that does make you do file conversion from the makers file to a dng you probably are going to double your storage space and until you have 60 terabytes of data you won't understand what an issue this can become...

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« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:54:16 am by j.miller »
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bryanyc

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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2008, 12:02:52 am »

This thread has brought out some fine posts.  James is eloquent as usual.

I feel for you all working with AD's and directors, though I know it is part of that game.

As for lighting (and by extension how you see the image) - yes, it is more important than the camera.  1/800th sync limiting?- that is pretty extreme.

The camera systems: obviously it is primarily a personal preference for what feels and works best for your style of shooting at the time.  Alas, there are less choices now than there were in the film days.
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marc gerritsen

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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2008, 12:13:43 am »

Quote
1. Will the H3D 1/800th shutter speed be to limiting?
2. The H3D has the focus option to align the back with the body but I was told this was only available on the H3D II?
3. Can you purchase just the H3D body also can the H3D back work on other H system bodies like H1 or H2?

Lastly I really would like so clear views to the pros and cons of these systems based on your own decisions. I know both are great systems and in some ways I can not go worng but as James as pointed out the workflow will be key.

I have tested both systems but only in a limited way based on availability of demos and the H3D is a used body. but I have only shot with a P30+ and am not sure if I go and get the P30 that the IQ will be very different? I know that the + will of course have some improvements.

Thanks again for your thoughts
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H3D back will not go on H1 or H2
and it is not possible to purchase H3D body alone
The whole point of this system is that it is integrated

Morgan made a good point about 1/800 flash sync
Also agree verymuch with TMark with his lighting comment.
 
just a side comment
It never seizes to amaze me how some posters always seem to
drift to their same endless postulations, regardless of the initial subject
and regardless of them being right or not.

m*
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2008, 12:16:20 am »

I agree with Tim and others above - invest in some lighting first and get to know it well- then go for the camera - you'll spend a fortune renting lighting to learn it. you can learn lighting with a 40D, D300, 5D, film, etc, etc...
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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2008, 05:31:42 am »

Quote
" we might know it when we see it"  backseat driving...

     

How recognizable. I have those clients as well. I tend to be very open with these people. Kind of like,  "Fine by me if you don't exactly know what you want but you do know that costs extra, don't you?".

I see it happen very often. What I really hate is when you see that they don't have a clue what they are after and try to hide it behind an attitude of arrogance.

Having said that, I also very much enjoy working with some AD's, CD's & stylists. The ones that know what they are doing are a delight to work with.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 05:39:25 am by Dustbak »
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