SINAR HY6 e-54 vs LEAF AFI5 ???

[BJNY]

Does anyone at all still look at image quality ? I mean, I don't think that Leaf or Sinar are bad, but I do wonder whether there aren't any differences - if they are totally identical in image quality, it's time they folded one of their R&D departments

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Then, should Hasselblad and Phase One merge since they use the same Kodak sensor?

[thsinar]

... and should Leaf split from Kodak since they don't use the Kodak sensors for most of their digital backs?

Then, should Hasselblad and Phase One merge since they use the same Kodak sensor?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200271\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Graham Mitchell]

ER, why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot with such comments?

[James R Russell]

... and should Leaf split from Kodak since they don't use the Kodak sensors for most of their digital backs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200283\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think who owns what really matters, but I do think medium format needs a rethink on where they are going.

As they move more and more to all in one solutions like the dslrs, they need to offer the same convenience as a dslr, such as better lcds, previews, higher isos, more comprehensive lens range (autofocus, not manual).

I also think medium format needs to find a way to trim costs or improve their lower cost models.
 
Superior image quality or not, just the pricing of most medium format cameras and backs almost guarantees that almost every photographer must have a Canon in the bag for backup.

I know a lot of this is just economy of scale, but starting fresh and putting a pencil to most of the new medium format cameras and backs, vs. buying a new Canon it doesn't take a lot of searching to realize that you can buy two of the latest Canons from the price of one new medium format back and cameras (in some cases 3).

Without a doubt there are a lot of subjects/genres that will be better if they are shot medium format, but there are few subjects/genres that can't be shot with a 21 mpx Canon and in my experience most clients won't or don't care which camera or format you shoot.

I know dealers and makers want to move everyone to the highest and best solution, but I also know from personal experience I can switch back and forth between an 18mpx p21 and a 31 mpx p30 and nobody says or mentions a thing all the way to final output.

Actually the last time I shot with the p21 all the client could say was "wow that shoots fast for that kind of camera", (whatever that means).

Clients do mention if the invoice comes in over estimate or if even 45 minutes was lost changing batteries and restarting software.

We all try to move our work upstream and do it in a lot of ways, but some of the complications of medium format sometimes hinders the process and the camera lcd (or better put the image preview) is a big part of that.

If someone is new to these forums the information probably makes their head spin.  Compressed or non compressed, dng conversion, file format conversion, auto correction, 7 batteries for a one day shoot, etc. etc. has got to confuse people, hell it confuses me.

I get the feeling that medium format is so busy trying to one up each other, most of the companies are missing a lot of the bigger picture (no pun intended) as to why a photographer is hired in the first place.

It's rarely because of the camera, make of sensor, or what company owns what camera maker.



JR

[thsinar]

I agree with you, James.

My remark was not serious, but an answer to another senseless remark (I forgot the "smiley"!)

Best regards,
Thierry

I don't think who owns what really matters, but I do think medium format needs a rethink on where they are going.

As they move more and more to all in one solutions like the dslrs, they need to offer the same convenience as a dslr, such as better lcds, previews, higher isos, more comprehensive lens range (autofocus, not manual).

I also think medium format needs to find a way to trim costs or improve their lower cost models.
 
Superior image quality or not, just the pricing of most medium format cameras and backs almost guarantees that almost every photographer must have a Canon in the bag for backup.

I know a lot of this is just economy of scale, but starting fresh and putting a pencil to most of the new medium format cameras and backs, vs. buying a new Canon it doesn't take a lot of searching to realize that you can buy two of the latest Canons from the price of one new medium format back and cameras (in some cases 3).

Without a doubt there are a lot of subjects/genres that will be better if they are shot medium format, but there are few subjects/genres that can't be shot with a 21 mpx Canon and in my experience most clients won't or don't care which camera or format you shoot.

I know dealers and makers want to move everyone to the highest and best solution, but I also know from personal experience I can switch back and forth between an 18mpx p21 and a 31 mpx p30 and nobody says or mentions a thing all the way to final output.

Actually the last time I shot with the p21 all the client could say was "wow that shoots fast for that kind of camera", (whatever that means).

Clients do mention if the invoice comes in over estimate or if even 45 minutes was lost changing batteries and restarting software.

We all try to move our work upstream and do it in a lot of ways, but some of the complications of medium format sometimes hinders the process and the camera lcd (or better put the image preview) is a big part of that.

If someone is new to these forums the information probably makes their head spin.  Compressed or non compressed, dng conversion, file format conversion, auto correction, 7 batteries for a one day shoot, etc. etc. has got to confuse people, hell it confuses me.

I get the feeling that medium format is so busy trying to one up each other, most of the companies are missing a lot of the bigger picture (no pun intended) as to why a photographer is hired in the first place.

It's rarely because of the camera, make of sensor, or what company owns what camera maker.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[eronald]

ER, why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot with such comments?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Look at Geoffrey's post - he cites physical differences between backs and forgets to consider the possibility that image quality might differ between Leaf and Sinar. I just point out that if they were totally identical then their R&D guys aren't doing their job - they're supposed to compete:)

Edmund

[Gigi]

Look at Geoffrey's post - he cites physical differences between backs and forgets to consider the possibility that image quality might differ between Leaf and Sinar. I just point out that if they were totally identical then their R&D guys aren't doing their job - they're supposed to compete:)

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund -

you are right. The reasons image quality was not mentioned were twofold:

1) I have no real first-hand information comparing the two. Interestingly enough, there seems to be some differences between Phase, Leaf and Sinar, but a proper comparison is same lens, same shot,  same .... well should they have the same processing? Not sure..... but at any rate, I have no ability to comment thoughtfully on this.

2) It is reasonable to assume that there will be IQ differences between the makes. There should be. On the other hand, if there was a clear superior one, we'd probably have heard about it. Its more likely that each have different strengths, and ideally should be matched to a shooter and their preferences.

That said, my suspicion is that the physical and workflow factors may be more critical, and that each of these takes a credible, reasonable, and high quality image. At least we have seen evidence of that, yes?

One more thing: I took an M8 RAW image and ran it through a number of raw converters - Lightroom, Aperture, Silkypix, and C1. At the end of the day (and this was some time ago, and not scientific) there was (to my eye) a markedly better match with C1 - no surprise, as they worked with the manufacturer to get the right mix.

So one would think the RAW converter of preference + back maker is one way to look at the issue - in order to maximize IQ.

That said - its a complex matching process. Individual preferences, back differences, workflow, particular requirements. All I was trying to do was simply present the physical differences, which to me, are a significant, and often overlooked part of the picture.

OK?  

Geoff

[eronald]

I strongly suggest you do some tests.
And also that you make sure that you are comfortable with the dealer system you work with.

No discourtesy intended to Thierry or the guys in Atlanta, but I was recently in a major city, phoned up my brand's dealer to buy a battery, was asked where I'd bought my back and was told that I should get the battery from the dealer where I bought my back - a few thousand miles away. I did get the battery in the end, but this is not something you want to go through, so choose your dealer system carefully. I'd like to note that the guys in Atlanta were very helpful to me when I was not their customer, and Thierry has helped out a lot of people not in his area.

Edmund

Edmund -

you are right. The reasons image quality was not mentioned were twofold:

1) I have no real first-hand information comparing the two. Interestingly enough, there seems to be some differences between Phase, Leaf and Sinar, but a proper comparison is same lens, same shot,  same .... well should they have the same processing? Not sure..... but at any rate, I have no ability to comment thoughtfully on this.

2) It is reasonable to assume that there will be IQ differences between the makes. There should be. On the other hand, if there was a clear superior one, we'd probably have heard about it. Its more likely that each have different strengths, and ideally should be matched to a shooter and their preferences.

That said, my suspicion is that the physical and workflow factors may be more critical, and that each of these takes a credible, reasonable, and high quality image. At least we have seen evidence of that, yes?

One more thing: I took an M8 RAW image and ran it through a number of raw converters - Lightroom, Aperture, Silkypix, and C1. At the end of the day (and this was some time ago, and not scientific) there was (to my eye) a markedly better match with C1 - no surprise, as they worked with the manufacturer to get the right mix.

So one would think the RAW converter of preference + back maker is one way to look at the issue - in order to maximize IQ.

That said - its a complex matching process. Individual preferences, back differences, workflow, particular requirements. All I was trying to do was simply present the physical differences, which to me, are a significant, and often overlooked part of the picture.

OK?   

Geoff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Not really sure if I've got it, Edmund:

I was with the belief that your brand was Phase?!

Thierry

No discourtesy intended to Thierry or the guys in Atlanta, but I was recently in a major city, phoned up my brand's dealer to buy a battery, was asked where I'd bought my back and was told that I should get the battery from the dealer where I bought my back - a few thousand miles away.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[eronald]

Not really sure if I've got it, Edmund:

I was with the belief that your brand was Phase?!

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes it is Thierry - but this is not a problem of the brand, who are probably about as good as every other at HQ,  but a problem of the backs being sold by a small pool of exclusive dealers. If you have need minor support for Canon you just walk to the nearest camera shop in every major city.

I hope that by the time I get my next back the distribution model will have changed.

Edmund

[thsinar]

Still not get it why you mention my name/brand, if one of the brand dealer asks you to buy your battery where you bought your back?!

Thierry

Yes it is Thierry - but this is not a problem of the brand, who are probably about as good as every other at HQ,  but a problem of the backs being sold by a small pool of exclusive dealers. If you have need minor support for Canon you just walk to the nearest camera shop in every major city.

I hope that by the time I get my next back the distribution model will have changed.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[eronald]

Still not get it why you mention my name/brand, if one of the brand dealer asks you to buy your battery where you bought your back?!

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

In my post I mentioned *no* brand, very specifically. I think there is  real problem generally with the exclusive dealer system. This applies to all the back makers who use exclusive geographic zoning. Don't take this personally, or specifically for your brand. I believe that dealers should be allowed to battle it out in each zone to get the customers - then the customers will get either low price or decent help. At the moment there is little incentive for dealers to provide either as they have the "exclusivity" as long as their geo zone is big enough to make some sales.

 
Edmund

[thsinar]

Edmund,

I understand what you mean, but by mentioning my name in your post it is suggesting that Sinar or this dealer in Atlanta does not want to deliver a battery to you because you did not purchase the back from him.

I honestly doubt that any of our distributor/dealer would not help, especially if he can sell something, being it even a small item.

I am also not sure if you can generalize and put all dealers at the same level of not being motivated to sell/support out of their territory: I believe that this forum is full of such dealers, from all brands, who have proved the contrary to be true.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

In my post I mentioned *no* brand, very specifically. I think there is  real problem generally with the exclusive dealer system. This applies to all the back makers who use exclusive geographic zoning. Don't take this personally, or specifically for your brand. I believe that dealers should be allowed to battle it out in each zone to get the customers - then the customers will get either low price or decent help. At the moment there is little incentive for dealers to provide either as they have the "exclusivity" as long as their geo zone is big enough to make some sales. My dealer has little incentive to send an hour helping me debug my back - as long as he can make sales to the local museums his franchise is safe.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[James R Russell]

Edmund,

I understand what you mean, but by mentioning my name in your post it is suggesting that Sinar or this dealer in Atlanta does not want to deliver a battery to you because you did not purchase the back from him.

I honestly doubt that any of our distributor/dealer would not help, especially if he can sell something, being it even a small item.

I am also not sure if you can generalize and put all dealers at the same level of not being motivated to sell/support out of their territory: I believe that this forum is full of such dealers, from all brands, who have proved the contrary to be true.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This has nothing to do with Sinar dealers, but the Phase system makes no sense and I'm sure it's not that much different for other brands.

I purchased my first Phase back from a dealer in Atlanta and though I didn't catch grief, it was made clear that I "should" have purchased from NY, because that's my base.

Well, in reality my physical base is everywhere, but even if I never left Manhattan I thought we were free to buy whatever, wherever we wanted as long as it was legal.

Months later I was in another city and I wanted another battery charger.  The dealer would sell it to me but only if I filled out a complete credit report, even though we were paying by credit card . . . for a battery charger?

Finally they sold it to me, but only if I would come in face-to-face to buy it, no phone orders.

If it wasn't so time consuming it would have been funny.   One one hand medium format is just beating the drums trying to sell as much product as possible, but on the other, they make it difficult in some markets and require you to go to a geographically close dealer.

Then there is the exceptions like Samy's or Calumet where they sell all brands worldwide.

I can't count the number of times a photographer has told me  "I would have tried or bought a _______, but I didn't like the dealer in my area.

Then again I know there are two sides to every story and I've seen more photographers take advantage of and abuse the dealers more than the other way around, where they buy from the absolute lowest offer, but then turn to their local dealer and demand service, but somehow medium format should reign this in and control their pricing, service and delivery without limiting where and how you buy a product.

I think medium format needs to decide what it is.  Are they a luxury brand that offers service after the sale, or are they a commodity that sells at the lowest price.

You really can't bet both, but right now most brands straddle that fence.


JR

[Graham Mitchell]

Well said, JR.

Before I got my back I was in touch with various dealers from different regions and many of them were simply incompetent and unprofessional. For example, I wrote to about 40 dealers worldwide and heard back from about 3. I even called a few after that who promised to get back to me and didn't. Any manufacturer who gives such dealers exclusive rights in a given region is really doing themselves a disservice. It simply pushes customers to look at other brands.

Bad dealers lose sales to the competition.

I believe we should be free to buy from any dealer, and then get warranty support from any dealer. After all, many of us travel for jobs and could need warranty service urgently in any location, and competition is generally good for the customer.

A co-operative dealer network adds value to a brand.

After sales support such as help with setting up a system or help with workflow and other facets of operating the cameras should be given by the dealer from whom we purchase the equipment. I can sympathize with any other dealer being reluctant to give their time for after-sales support when they didn't get the sale. No argument there.

A back maker shouldn't lose sales in a region to a customer looking for the best system price because their one dealer charges more and gives great personal service and after sales support, but the competitor's dealer just moves boxes at the best price. Or vice versa.

Giving the customer this choice will result in more sales.

[TMARK]

It seems that the model for the sale and distribution of MFDBs is the auto industry, which is an anachronism in this Web 2.0 world.  These things should be commodities like the DSLRs.  Perhaps this would lead to higher sales volume and lower prices, which in turn might get us some of the features included on the Canon 40d which are so lacking on the backs.

[eronald]

Thierry,

 The reason why I mentioned your name, and the guys in Atlanta is that you and the guys in Atlanta are known to be extremely helpful. I was paying you a compliment. Enough said.

 
Edmund

Edmund,

I understand what you mean, but by mentioning my name in your post it is suggesting that Sinar or this dealer in Atlanta does not want to deliver a battery to you because you did not purchase the back from him.

I honestly doubt that any of our distributor/dealer would not help, especially if he can sell something, being it even a small item.

I am also not sure if you can generalize and put all dealers at the same level of not being motivated to sell/support out of their territory: I believe that this forum is full of such dealers, from all brands, who have proved the contrary to be true.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[eronald]

Thierry,

 The reason why I mentioned your name, and the guys in Atlanta is that you and the guys in Atlanta are known to be extremely helpful. I was paying you a compliment. Enough said.

 
Edmund


James,

 There are alternate chargers out there. If you know the compatible camcorder battery number, any electronics store will sell you a universal charger that fits that model. All these batteries seem very similar, they're probably made in the same factories, but the manufacturers use different "shoes" to make you buy their make. The universal chargers come with shoes which fit every model.
 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=200458\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[JTFOTO]

Well Said JR.

I agree, I only buy my stuff from Atlanta Dealers and I am based between NYC and LA with very regular trips to London and Paris.

Both PPR and CI have superior service, support ad don't act like a used car salesman. Like many of the NYC places.  The only place I buy from in NYC is B&H, Adorama, and K&M and that is strictly for grip, lighting, expendables and 35mm digital.