COMMERCIAL DAY RATES ???

[elitegroup]

As an emerging photographer I'm at the stage where I'm feeling my way around the negotiation table with potential clients.

In a previous issue of Capture (an Australian Pro-Photography Magazine) a standard industry commercial day rate was quoted/estimated at around $2700-$3600 a day plus expenses. (this was based on research from working photographers in the U.S. I believe)

After making my own queries (checking with local talent) here in Perth the rate is fairly dismal some where around the $2200-$2500 a day + expenses.

Mind you Perth is a small town most of the commercial/advertising campaigns are shot in Sydney & Melbourne  

I spoke with one of the directors at the acmp and he mentioned an interesting story of how 3 different photographers quoted $20,000 - $36,000 & $106,000 for the same 3 day job.

Guess who the client went with ??

That's right the $106,000 quote  

What I've gleaned from this is to ask/work with the proposed budget or quote higher than the going rate leaving room for negotiation with the client.

I also believe your quote will reflect your perceived value so not being afraid to be bold in your negotiations, of course taking into account your expenses, overheads, standard/quality of work etc.  

I know there are many other things I have not touched on in this brief summary but I'd love to hear from others what/how they factor their quotes for advertising, beauty & commercial campaigns

 

[Graham Mitchell]

It depends so much on location/market that most people here won't be able to give you a useful answer. Example: here in Estonia a typical day rate (inc equipment and studio) is $300-500, and there are no licence fees.

Even in your own location, prices depend on the strength of your folio, the client, usage, etc. You really need to ask around in Perth to get a feeling for the upper and lower limits and decide where you fit in.

[Snook]

It depends so much on location/market that most people here won't be able to give you a useful answer. Example: here in Estonia a typical day rate (inc equipment and studio) is $3-500, and there are no licence fees.

Even in your own location, prices depend on the strength of your folio, the client, usage, etc. You really need to ask around in Perth to get a feeling for the upper and lower limits and decide where you fit in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Those fees sounds about standard and right.
Of course depends on how long they are going to use stuff/Packaging etc... Where etc...
The only bummer is of course like any city you always have the young new guy offering his services for much less just to try and "get" into the market...!!
I usually charge on a Job by Job Basis.
Snook

[elitegroup]

It depends so much on location/market that most people here won't be able to give you a useful answer. Example: here in Estonia a typical day rate (inc equipment and studio) is $3-500, and there are no licence fees.

Even in your own location, prices depend on the strength of your folio, the client, usage, etc. You really need to ask around in Perth to get a feeling for the upper and lower limits and decide where you fit in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Graham, I forgot to mention usage, licensing etc.

I've pretty much coined a standard rate I'll work from in future negotiations  

But I'd still love to hear how others work on their side of the world

 

[elitegroup]

Those fees sounds about standard and right.
Of course depends on how long they are going to use stuff/Packaging etc... Where etc...
The only bummer is of course like any city you always have the young new guy offering his services for much less just to try and "get" into the market...!!
I usually charge on a Job by Job Basis.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Under charging makes bad business sense that doesn't help/support any one in the industry.

I hope this will not emerge as common practice in my side of the world  

[condit79]

I´m an emerging shooter here in madrid as well, but this is what I´ve learned in the past couple of years working in a new market (madrid) and from reading every last morsel on the topic I can find (PDN is a great resource for this type of thing).

When it comes to bidding, your different expense lines can show how you prepare for a shoot. The day rate is normally the last thing they´ll look at.  Did you add appropriate fees for catering?  What retouching studio do you use?  Do you add digital capture fees?  Do you use a producer to make sure all things are running smoothly?  Do you have a workstation-laptop with a nice screen rented for clients to review the shoot onsite or in the studio?    all these things come out in your bids, and show a level of professionalism.   And all these things need to appear, and it´s better to have every last detail thought of before the shoot and in the bid.  It shows that you know how to plan and that you´re going to solve their problems, not create a new one by not being prepared.

  It may also be that the highest bidder for that job was also THAT good and the production level that they bring to the shoot is something the client is looking for.  

There are a million reasons why a client won´t use you, but price isn´t the end all.  It´s how you present the price, the level of production the client needs and how you show them that you´re going to resolve their needs for images in the smoothest way possible.

The worst is when a client asks for a bid and isn´t 100% sure what they need.  I had a client needing shots and the number of locations I was to shoot at wasn´t nailed down so I had to create a bid that reflected the situation.  X euros for x locations on top of a base rate + incidentals-expenses+usage (and that had to be shown per shot used since the number of shots wasn´t nailed down either...).  

That´s one thing I noticed changing markets from Chicago to Spain.  Here people can be more relaxed and easy going and when you need concrete information it can get hairy.  And every situation is going to be different and their understanding of usage, etc is going to be different.  That´s maybe the hardest part of the whole thing.  Feeling out the clients for their needs, interests, understanding of the industry, and interpersonal relationships can be the difference between winning the bid or not.

[Graham Mitchell]

Those fees sounds about standard and right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you kidding?  They are the lowest fees in any country I have heard of.

[Snook]

Are you kidding?  They are the lowest fees in any country I have heard of.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am sure they pay great in Estonia...:+}
Snook

[Dustbak]

Are you kidding?  They are the lowest fees in any country I have heard of.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Right! Graham, please stay there. Do not come over here with these kind of fees please

Point is that it is very difficult to mention a day rate for someone that is working at another location and probably in another type of work as well.

I alread found pretty big differences between Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany and the UK and these are countries that aren't even that far apart. Even differences in between acceptance levels in provinces within these countries.

Someone mentioned, the importance of explaining what the level and kind of service they can expect from you. I guess that is where I agree.

To be frank, it is my wife that handles the business part of my work because she is really good at that. She can be brutally direct and where I might back down because I just want to do the work she will get the maximum out of the assignment while still being loved and accepted by the clients. Also by exactly mentioning what the clients will get and what they have to pay for she prevents aggravation and ensures a continous stream of assignments from the same companies. Over the years we have stripped everything into numbers where clients can start very cheap and add as much service as the want at a price.

The times we cannot do that I charge a flat hourly fee of 75euros/hour plus expenses (appr. 115USD/Hour). Even those rates cannot just be used by anyone doing something, I find some lines of work these rates are easily accepted while in other parts of the market they can never hire you and rates are below 50euro/hour.  

Anyway, a long story to tell you I can't tell you that much

[Dustbak]

BTW, I recently got my hands on the results of a 150K euros job which were nice but did make me realize I am doing something wrong because they were not that nice and some images were even downright sloppy and bad. I would never have dared to drop these kind of results on a job with that kind of budget.

These people obviously had their sales pitch well under control. It just shows, the way you sell something is not un-important.

[dustblue]

here in Beijing a day rate of $1500 is common, top pros charge more, which maybe $3000-5000, but very rarely goes beyond that.

Thanks Graham, I forgot to mention usage, licensing etc.

I've pretty much coined a standard rate I'll work from in future negotiations   

But I'd still love to hear how others work on their side of the world

 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[digitaldog]

I was under the impression (at least a decade and a half ago when I was getting paid to shoot), photographers charged for rights and usage of images, not "day rate". Maybe that's something old or just something that came about in the US. Any APA or ASMP members around that can comment and get me up to speed in the 21 century?

[TMARK]

I was under the impression (at least a decade and a half ago when I was getting paid to shoot), photographers charged for rights and usage of images, not "day rate". Maybe that's something old or just something that came about in the US. Any APA or ASMP members around that can comment and get me up to speed in the 21 century?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The day rate doesn't mean much next to usage on a commercial shoot in major US markets.  I (roughly) figured out what it costs me just to be in business on a daily basis.  I build in some profit and some to cover the days I'm not charging a day rate, but really I make money from usage.  The only time the day rate really comes into play is when shooting for small boutiques, as their usage is so low as to be negligable.

[jonstewart]

The day rate doesn't mean much next to usage on a commercial shoot in major US markets.  I (roughly) figured out what it costs me just to be in business on a daily basis.  I build in some profit and some to cover the days I'm not charging a day rate, but really I make money from usage.  The only time the day rate really comes into play is when shooting for small boutiques, as their usage is so low as to be negligable.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course, in the UK, the shooting fee normally includes base usage (1yr/2uses/1territory), so the calculations would be different in the UK, compared with the US.


www.the-aop.org

[sergio]

The "day rate" or work for hire figure which I think is really bad for photographers was the norm here in Colombia. A few of us working profesionals got together made and association and turned everything around. We talked most of the working pros, especially in the advertising and editorial world to join and we became very succesful. Now we not only charge for our creative fees + expenses, but also for licensing which is accounted as time of use, countries or regions of use, and media where it is used.

Fees do vary a lot depending on how bad people need the job and depending of course on your level of skill. Digital photography in its downside has brought a lot of people allured by the glittery world of photographers and for what others might think is easy money.  On the surface DSLRS are less intimidating and more accesible than the bigger format cameras of the past necessary for high IQ. Maybe that is the reason. The uncertainty of undeveloped film is no longer a risk barrier.And due to immediate image feedback for clients and agencies, I also see some photographers are starting to become more like camera operators than anything else.

 I strive for being an author, hopefully with a unique way of seeing the world and putting in my pictures, instead of being hired because of the camera and the basic skills of barely handling it. An artistic personal discourse, or however you want to call it, is what the photographer should charge for.

[elitegroup]

I was under the impression (at least a decade and a half ago when I was getting paid to shoot), photographers charged for rights and usage of images, not "day rate". Maybe that's something old or just something that came about in the US. Any APA or ASMP members around that can comment and get me up to speed in the 21 century?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Should have mentioned the photographers BUR (BASE USAGE RATE Refers to the photographer’s fee negotiated for the shoot) may include 1-2 PRINCIPAL MEDIA or limited extra use, outside the client’s original commission.

Usage may be negotiated exclusive of the BUR depending on the agreement.

Hope that makes sense  

[elitegroup]

Are you kidding?  They are the lowest fees in any country I have heard of.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now I feel  

I'm going to have to move to NY  

[godtfred]

Day rate for me and the colleagues I know of on MFDB's in Oslo is around $2200,- $2800,- thats including everything from equipment to studio, but not other costs like props, personell, make up artists, assistants, etc.... it's also not including 25 % "MVA" sales tax. I did a three day shoot back to back from 9 am to 10 pm a little while back, and the price paid for me alone with my equipment was $10700,-

Licencing fees vary videly, on small scale product shoots its almost never used, but on large advertising campains can amount to around the same as the day rates for around one year of free use. Complex usage and licencing programs are almost never used, (except for the very top-top been around for ages photogs that I know of in Norway. )

[Snook]

Should have mentioned the photographers BUR (BASE USAGE RATE Refers to the photographer’s fee negotiated for the shoot) may include 1-2 PRINCIPAL MEDIA or limited extra use, outside the client’s original commission.

Usage may be negotiated exclusive of the BUR depending on the agreement.

Hope that makes sense 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196601\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't know where I went wrong but it is obvious that those are basic rates and depend on many things.
But the prices sounds right for my market.
Basic rate for me also means per day catalogue rate as well.. Advertising is usually more OBVIOUSLY depending How long it will appear, where it will appear etc...
When I acknowledge that the rates were about right, That is what I meant. basic day rate and then from there they go up depending on what it is for.. This should be obvious, sorry if I did not finish my statement!
 In any case it will vary and it depends a lot on many factors.
NOTE that many added + Expenses...:+}
SNook

[samuel_js]

Day rate for me and the colleagues I know of on MFDB's in Oslo is around $2200,- $2800,- thats including everything from equipment to studio, but not other costs like props, personell, make up artists, assistants, etc.... it's also not including 25 % "MVA" sales tax. I did a three day shoot back to back from 9 am to 10 pm a little while back, and the price paid for me alone with my equipment was $10700,-

Licencing fees vary videly, on small scale product shoots its almost never used, but on large advertising campains can amount to around the same as the day rates for around one year of free use. Complex usage and licencing programs are almost never used, (except for the very top-top been around for ages photogs that I know of in Norway. )
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=196603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you work from 9 am to 10 pm that's 13 hours. Here in sweden the day rate is 8 hours. So what you got paid is like 39 hours here. Almost 5 days. So it's almost the same because here a normal 8 hour day rate could be about $1300. About 162 dollar per hour including 25% taxes.