Rodenstock Digital Apo Versus Grandagon-N

[Drew Harty]

Hello,

I am shooting with a Aptus 65 on an Arca 6x9.  I use a Rodenstock Digital Apo 45mm and 105mm lens and would like to purchase a lens approximately 70mm in length.  I frequently stitch images together by shifting the back which means I am using the extremes of the field of view of a digital lens but would be using more of the center of the field of view on the Grandagon-N lens.  

I understand the digital lens is going to outperform the film lens with no shifts, but am wondering how lens performance would compare when the digital lens is shifted to its extremes and the film lens is not.  Does anyone know if the Grandagon-N lens would also have less fall off because it is not shifted to its extremes?

When I shift my 45mm digital apo to get two frames with approximately a 25% overlap, there is a lot of fall off, and the right and left edges of the frames are loosing very noticeable resolution.  

There are also Grandagon-N lens available used and the 70mm digital apo is $1500 new.

Thanks for any advice.

Drew Harty

[BobDavid]

The Schneidert Digitar 72mm lens is extremely sharp as is the 70mm Rodenstock Digital. I'd recommend the Rodenstock for stitching applications as its image circle is impressively large. Don't bother with non-digital lenses.

[jing q]

I use the Rodenstock 45mm Digital also
I find the loss of resolution when shifting is quite noticable...
I got a 35mm rodenstock HR and although the movements are limited (about 8mm left and right), the resolution stays very high

I'm looking for a lens around 70mm also...

Hello,

I am shooting with a Aptus 65 on an Arca 6x9.  I use a Rodenstock Digital Apo 45mm and 105mm lens and would like to purchase a lens approximately 70mm in length.  I frequently stitch images together by shifting the back which means I am using the extremes of the field of view of a digital lens but would be using more of the center of the field of view on the Grandagon-N lens. 

I understand the digital lens is going to outperform the film lens with no shifts, but am wondering how lens performance would compare when the digital lens is shifted to its extremes and the film lens is not.  Does anyone know if the Grandagon-N lens would also have less fall off because it is not shifted to its extremes?

When I shift my 45mm digital apo to get two frames with approximately a 25% overlap, there is a lot of fall off, and the right and left edges of the frames are loosing very noticeable resolution. 

There are also Grandagon-N lens available used and the 70mm digital apo is $1500 new.

Thanks for any advice.

Drew Harty
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[bryanyc]

I use the Rodenstock 45mm Digital also
I find the loss of resolution when shifting is quite noticable...
I got a 35mm rodenstock HR and although the movements are limited (about 8mm left and right), the resolution stays very high

I'm looking for a lens around 70mm also...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185337\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very important topic.  

Is the tradeoff of falloff and low resolution of digital lenses shifted to their extremes still an overall advantage compared to "analog" lenses with less falloff and (how much) less overall resolution?

How about the rodenstock 35 xl for shift stitching?

[jing q]

Very important topic. 

Is the tradeoff of falloff and low resolution of digital lenses shifted to their extremes still an overall advantage compared to "analog" lenses with less falloff and (how much) less overall resolution?

How about the rodenstock 35 xl for shift stitching?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185341\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that's my question too
some people have mentioned that the schneider digitar series is good but the only digitar with significant shift on the wide angle side seems to be the 47mm. Not sure how different it is compared to the normal 47mm XL

After abit more research the new digitar version of the 72mm Schneider looks interesting, there's 20mm of rise and 17mm of shift. that's pretty good compared to the Rodenstock 60mm HR

from my experience with the Rodenstock 35mm HR I will say that you get a clearer image cropping it to match the view on a Rodenstock 45mm f/4.5, so stitching a 35mm to its limits and cropping down to a 45mm stitched to its limits may yield better quality (less megapixels but better quality pixels in general)

Anyone with experience with both the Schneider Apo Digitars and Rodenstock HR lenses may want to weigh in on the image quality of each brand comparatively. I'm interested in finding out...

I just did a bit of research and found that the schneider digitars are cheaper coming even from the UK versus buying in USA!something for me to note in the future...

[rainer_v]

interesting that you claim 8mm left/right with the 35hr. suppose you use a kodak sensor, which is 1mm bigger t5han the dalsa. with dalsa sensor i move the 28+35HR about 10/11 left right and 12-13 up/down without vignetting.

the 60HR allows around 20mm up/down without significant sharpness decrease,-
the 100HR loose sharpness if shifted more than 15mm.

overall i think the 45 digital has less resolution if stitched to its max. than the sharper 35HR , although its image circle is more limited.
bad experience with the 35 digital. significant decrease of sharpness with movements larger than 10mm. returned it therefor.
the 55digital is similar than the 45 digital. perfect usable but behind the HR lenses.

[Drew Harty]

The Schneidert Digitar 72mm lens is extremely sharp as is the 70mm Rodenstock Digital. I'd recommend the Rodenstock for stitching applications as its image circle is impressively large. Don't bother with non-digital lenses.
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Have you tested the difference between digital and film lens--particularly when shifting the lens?  I have tested the difference between the digital and film version of Rodenstock's 105mm lens and found it very hard to see a difference.

Drew

[Drew Harty]

Very important topic. 

Is the tradeoff of falloff and low resolution of digital lenses shifted to their extremes still an overall advantage compared to "analog" lenses with less falloff and (how much) less overall resolution?

How about the rodenstock 35 xl for shift stitching?
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The general wisdom seems to be there is more advantage to digital lens over film lens for wide lens, but I did a quick test between Rodenstock's digital and film versions of their 105mm lens and saw very little difference.  

Drew

[Dave Carter]

Drew, a little of topic but, for what it's worth, I have been trying the Rodenstock Digital HR 100 mm/f4 on an Alpa 12TC frame and Leaf 75 back.  Stitched panos are made by swinging the complete camera with overlap so I am not using the very edge of the lens field.  (No shift).

So far my largest pano has been a 6x3 capture with the back in a vertical position.  (That is 6 pictures across and 3 pictures vertical).

The detail in these captures is amazing to me.  With today's stitching software, why limit yourself to image circle?

I next want to try a little higher mm lens but I don't think I want to go to the Rodenstock Digital HR 180 mm/f5.6.  The image angle per shot is dropped from 39 degrees to 25.  But, I might try it.

At this point, I certainly like the Rodenstock Digital HR 100 mm/f4.

Best of luck, Dave

[Mort54]

Drew, a little of topic but, for what it's worth, I have been trying the Rodenstock Digital HR 100 mm/f4 on an Alpa 12TC frame and Leaf 75 back.  Stitched panos are made by swinging the complete camera with overlap so I am not using the very edge of the lens field.  (No shift).

Hi Dave. Do you use any wider lenses on your 12TC, or do you just rely on panning to go wide?

[Dave Carter]

Yes, Mort54, I have a Schneider Digitar 35mm/5.6 that I also like and use.

But, as I am sure you realize, it doesn't compare if you have to make a very large print. (That is why I am now thinking about trying the 180mm).  On a linear basis, the 35mm contains about 1/2 as many pixels as the same picture using a stitched 100mm approach.   That's about 4x on an area basis.

Dave

[jing q]

good point regarding moving the whole camera...I've actually been looking into that and was wondering which tripod heads people use to shift their cameras perpendicular to the scene in front of them,in a precise manner?

[Larry_Menzin]

I've been through this exercise as well. The 35mm HR has great resolution but gets soft with more than 8mm shift. I do get decent results stitching with the 55mm APO Sironar digital, but it too softens up near the edges.

After these two experiences, I tried out a 75mm Grandagon-N film lens and it is fantastic since it covers 4x5. Obviously, film lenses are more likely to have lens cast off axis, but it is easily correctable with LCC (for Phase One).

If you need to get the best performance with a single frame, the digital lenses are superior. For multiple frame stitching, the larger ICs of the film lenses are advantagous.

Larry

Hello,

I am shooting with a Aptus 65 on an Arca 6x9.  I use a Rodenstock Digital Apo 45mm and 105mm lens and would like to purchase a lens approximately 70mm in length.  I frequently stitch images together by shifting the back which means I am using the extremes of the field of view of a digital lens but would be using more of the center of the field of view on the Grandagon-N lens. 

.
.
Drew Harty
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[bryanyc]

interesting that you claim 8mm left/right with the 35hr. suppose you use a kodak sensor, which is 1mm bigger t5han the dalsa. with dalsa sensor i move the 28+35HR about 10/11 left right and 12-13 up/down without vignetting.

the 60HR allows around 20mm up/down without significant sharpness decrease,-
the 100HR loose sharpness if shifted more than 15mm.

overall i think the 45 digital has less resolution if stitched to its max. than the sharper 35HR , although its image circle is more limited.
bad experience with the 35 digital. significant decrease of sharpness with movements larger than 10mm. returned it therefor.
the 55digital is similar than the 45 digital. perfect usable but behind the HR lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ranier:  I got lost in the last paragraph.  Are you comparing the Schneider digital lenses to the Rodenstock?  Or just the Rodenstock lenses?   I believe that the 35xl Schneider digitar has the widest image circle of all the 35 digital lenses:  but how sharp is it shifted to its max ?    I have a schneider 58xl on an alpa swa: how sharp is that going to be relative to a digital lens (schneider or rodenstock)?

[Dave Carter]

I've been through this exercise as well. The 35mm HR has great resolution but gets soft with more than 8mm shift. I do get decent results stitching with the 55mm APO Sironar digital, but it too softens up near the edges.

After these two experiences, I tried out a 75mm Grandagon-N film lens and it is fantastic since it covers 4x5. Obviously, film lenses are more likely to have lens cast off axis, but it is easily correctable with LCC (for Phase One).

If you need to get the best performance with a single frame, the digital lenses are superior. For multiple frame stitching, the larger ICs of the film lenses are advantagous.

Larry
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Larry,
I think we are talking about two methods of capturing frames for stitching.  One is accomplished by holding the camera perfectly still and using a shift movement in the camera and the other is by taking multi pictures by swinging the whole camera.
 
In the first case I think your statement above about the 75mm Grandagon-N film lens being better is correct.  However, for the second method of swinging the camera, I would think the Digitar would be a better choice.  Note that I have not done the actual comparison myself.

Dave

[Drew Harty]

Drew, a little of topic but, for what it's worth, I have been trying the Rodenstock Digital HR 100 mm/f4 on an Alpa 12TC frame and Leaf 75 back.  Stitched panos are made by swinging the complete camera with overlap so I am not using the very edge of the lens field.  (No shift).

Hello Dave,

When stitching with a 45mm lens, my images generally contain a lot of close up foreground; consequently, using CS3 stitching software, I have gotten cleaner results from shifting the back than swinging the camera.  I have had no problem stitching with the 100mm digital apo by shifting the back.  

Drew