Topic: Moire issues (Read 7370 times)

mosko · « **on:** March 19, 2008, 07:24:44 pm »

Hi All,

I'm in the final stages if figuring out which MFDB to go with. As a people/portrait shooter moire issues can be a pain to deal with. I realize that all DBs have this issue, but was wondering what MFDB software combo best handle this.
Is there any advantage to Dalsa vs Kodak backs? Microlenses vs. no microlenses? Chip micron size?

I have done casual testing of of both Phase and Leaf backs in the camera store. The one time
I rented a system for a shoot was P30+ for a simple studio shoot and had some major moire
problems which could not be resolved with Moire tools in C1 3.7.8. The retouching took hours.

I am a RZ user that is desperate to get a digital MF system. Don't need huge file sizes, but need
the look I get from MF. Would prefer a 22 megapixel full frame back, but have heard that the P25 is worse that P30 for moire?

Love to hear others experiences,

Thanks!

Karen Moskowitz

snickgrr · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2008, 08:07:23 pm »

I can only speak for Leaf since it's the only medium digital back I've shot with since 2001 but I hardly ever get any moire and when it does pop up, the software seems to handle it admirably. I must say the tool set in V8 I like way better than what they're doing with it in LC11. In V8 there were brushes that you adjust to right size and you paint right over the problem areas. In LC 11 they use selection masks. I wish they bring back the brushes.
I don't even consider moire an issue whatsoever anymore in Medium format at least with Leaf.

j.miller · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2008, 08:20:22 pm »

Karen,
I would highly recommend you look into a Hasselblad system, along with the newly release Phocus® software. Phocus brings a very innovative, and effective anti-moire tool to Hasselblad's systems, not to mention some other GUI and work-flow related improvements. Considering you shoot people, I would make the obvious assumption that MultiShot (MS) is not a viable option. MultiShot technology has been the ideal solution for eliminating moire.

Your best bet is going to be to do some (more) testing. With Hasselblad, you have a few options as to what digital systems to look at. If you are planning to stick with your RZ67, you will ideally want to look at Hasselblad's CF-Series backs. This would include the CF-22 and CF-39. These are easily configured for cable-free operation on the new Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID, and "cable'd" operation (like most backs from other manufacturers) on the previous versions of the Mamiya RZ67 system. Files from the entire Hasselblad CF range of backs ((CF-22, CF-22MS, CF-39, CF-39M, CF-V) can be processed in Phocus, and with the new anti-moire tool implemented.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote

Hi All,

I'm in the final stages if figuring out which MFDB to go with. As a people/portrait shooter moire issues can be a pain to deal with. I realize that all DBs have this issue, but was wondering what MFDB software combo best handle this.
Is there any advantage to Dalsa vs Kodak backs? Microlenses vs. no microlenses? Chip micron size?

I have done casual testing of of both Phase and Leaf backs in the camera store. The one time
I rented a system for a shoot was P30+ for a simple studio shoot and had some major moire
problems which could not be resolved with Moire tools in C1 3.7.8. The retouching took hours.

I am a RZ user that is desperate to get a digital MF system. Don't need huge file sizes, but need
the look I get from MF. Would prefer a 22 megapixel full frame back, but have heard that the P25 is worse that P30 for moire?

Love to hear others experiences,

Thanks!

Karen Moskowitz
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

mosko · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2008, 08:58:52 pm »

Quote

I can only speak for Leaf since it's the only medium digital back I've shot with since 2001 but I hardly ever get any moire and when it does pop up, the software seems to handle it admirably. I must say the tool set in V8 I like way better than what they're doing with it in LC11. In V8 there were brushes that you adjust to right size and you paint right over the problem areas. In LC 11 they use selection masks. I wish they bring back the brushes.
I don't even consider moire an issue whatsoever anymore in Medium format at least with Leaf.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Can I ask which back you use?

snickgrr · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2008, 09:01:49 pm »

A75 usually on a Fuji 680.

AndreNapier · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2008, 09:39:29 pm »

A75S on Rz67. I only shoot people. I have no problem whatsoever with moire. Previously used P25 with H1 and moire was a real deal especially on suits.
http://andrenapier.com

Dustbak · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2008, 03:43:16 am »

I would not go for anything that is relying on a beta that has been out less than a week for something that is obviously very important to you. Phocus is not yet something that one could suggest a true solution. I find it bad advice to go for a solution that is still in its testing phase, unfortunately more than one photographer has found himself a guinea pig over the last couple of years. It is things like that that give MFDB a bad rep.

I have been working with beta software with MFDB's too long, I would suggest if you need it now and if your bread&butter is depending on it to go with something that has established itself already as a proven solution.

Leaf has a working moire solution (I found it working most of the time), I cannot tell about Phase or Sinar and Hasselblad simply has not (yet).

I work with Hasselblad BTW (mostly very satisfied I might say). I use multishot on clothing which is simply stunning but indeed unusable on people (mostly). I have moire problems with single shot in 16Mp backs and even my 39Mp CF back. yes, it can be corrected but it does eat time.

Naturally there might be other factors for your that also play a role in your decision making.

free1000 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2008, 03:51:19 am »

There seems to be much less problem with moire with the higher resolution Leaf. I have the A75 and have not seen much, though my subject matter is architectural and you sometimes get textures, fine mesh etc on structures.

I have one useful point to add however. The Leaf software has a very useful moire reduction tool. I had a shot last year which very unexpectedly had disastrous moire. I tried at first to use the Leaf software but I didn't 'read the manual' so could not get it to work. I then spent a day trying every moire solution out there... none of them worked. However I then went back to the leaf, tried again and Bingo! it worked.

It was a relief of enormous magnitude. I don't know if the other vendors have this capability, but it certainly seems to be a very powerful aspect of the leaf software.

Hans_de_Kort · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2008, 05:56:39 am »

Has anyone experience with this caprock filters.

yaya · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2008, 07:00:45 am »

Quote

Has anyone experience with this caprock filters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, they tend to soften the image and to desaturate it, much like what the AA filter does in DSLRs,

All that while not necessarily preventing Moire (colour or luminance) from creeping in.

With a DB you are better off picking a high resolution back and using the supplied software facility, preferably one that works on the RAW file and that gives you an option for masking.

RZ lenses, in comparison to newer designs and being slightly softer/ less contrasty) tend to be more forgiving when it comes to dealing with patterns that can present moire.

Yair

NBP · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2008, 08:25:49 am »

Quote

I can only speak for Leaf since it's the only medium digital back I've shot with since 2001 but I hardly ever get any moire and when it does pop up, the software seems to handle it admirably.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would echo this comment.
I use an A65s and have ocassionally gone "shiiiiiiiit" on seeing the preview and then no trace whatsoever to be found once processed.[LC11]

The only occasional problems I've encountered have been the odd high altitude blue sky through a polarizing filter.

mosko · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2008, 12:47:49 pm »

Thanks for all the input! So far it seems like Leaf users have had fewer problems. I failed to mention I have a Mamiya 645 AF system as well which would make sense to use as a base system
and get an adapter for my RZ. Would love to have it all in one camera, I have drooled over the
hy6/AFi as the rotating back is my dream, but the price is hard to swallow.

Most of the pros in my area (Seattle) use Hasselblad or Phase backs so have not had much direct
input from Leaf users.

Karen

mtomalty · « **Reply #12 on:** March 20, 2008, 01:18:23 pm »

Karen

I had a demo last week of Hasselblad's Phocus and the moire 'elimination' ability
was outstanding.

The original capture taken by a former studio partner of mine was for packaging for
women's (I suppose men,too) pantyhose and was a fairly routine closeup of
a pair of women's legs,hip down to toe.
Moire,with this subject,is always a problem and this case was no exception as huge
patches of moire appeared throughout the image.

Running the image through Phocus,and it's new anti-moire tool, removed,for all intents
and purposes,ALL moire without sacrificing any of the fine detail of the fabric.

I can't speak as to whether a different capture device would have been less problematic
with regards to 'creating' moire but as elimination solutions go this was the best I've seen.

Mark

AndreNapier · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2008, 02:18:35 pm »

Quote

Thanks for all the input! So far it seems like Leaf users have had fewer problems. I failed to mention I have a Mamiya 645 AF system as well which would make sense to use as a base system
and get an adapter for my RZ. Would love to have it all in one camera, I have drooled over the
hy6/AFi as the rotating back is my dream, but the price is hard to swallow.

Most of the pros in my area (Seattle) use Hasselblad or Phase backs so have not had much direct
input from Leaf users.

Karen
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Karen,
I have used most of the systems in the past 7 years since going db road. I am extremely pleased with Aptus/Rz67 combo. There is nothing sweeter than Rz lenses for people shooters. As compared to H files the images are much smoother and your post processing is cut in half. At the current price of Rz lenses and bodies you really can't go wrong with this option. Two bodies and a set of 9 lenses in mint condition can be still purchased on ebay for less than $3500. I call it a great deal with revolving back as a standard option. Once you mask black the unused portion of your view finder you never know it even existed. I find 50mm more than enough of a wide angle for 99% of people shots. The adapter that I use for my H1/A75 to Rz is working perfectly and my DB has never any problems and just keep shooting 1000 file days. Additionally as you probably remember Rz is the easiest system to focus. The image just pops in at the focused rate at 95% wide open. I love it.
Oh I forgot the camera was design in the past millennium.
[a href=\"http://Http://AndreNapier.com]Http://AndreNapier.com[/url]

mosko · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2008, 02:44:30 pm »

Quote

Karen,
I have used most of the systems in the past 7 years since going db road. I am extremely pleased with Aptus/Rz67 combo. There is nothing sweeter than Rz lenses for people shooters. As compared to H files the images are much smoother and your post processing is cut in half. At the current price of Rz lenses and bodies you really can't go wrong with this option. Two bodies and a set of 9 lenses in mint condition can be still purchased on ebay for less than $3500. I call it a great deal with revolving back as a standard option. Once you mask black the unused portion of your view finder you never know it even existed. I find 50mm more than enough of a wide angle for 99% of people shots. The adapter that I use for my H1/A75 to Rz is working perfectly and my DB has never any problems and just keep shooting 1000 file days. Additionally as you probably remember Rz is the easiest system to focus. The image just pops in at the focused rate at 95% wide open. I love it.
Oh I forgot the camera was design in the past millennium.
Http://AndreNapier.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know what you mean about the RZ. It was my workhorse for years. I love the bright viewfinder and how fast I can shoot with it. The only thing that would slow me down was my sore thumb at the end of the day!(the MD too slow). I do like shooting wide, though, for environmental portraits I loved the RZ 65mm, so would need a wide solution as well.

I will look in to the Hasselblad w/Phocus. I am hesitant as my preferred workflow is Lightroom/CS3, only going to native software when needed. My one time trying Flexcolor
tethered it was soooo slow.

amsp · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2008, 02:53:56 pm »

I think the whole moire issue is a bit exaggerated. I have the P25 which is supposedly the worst in this regard, but the truth is the PhaseOne plug-in for photoshop (I prefer it to the function in C1) removes it completely in 99.9% of the cases. It's really not a big deal.

HarperPhotos · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2008, 05:46:25 pm »

Quote

Has anyone experience with this caprock filters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gidday,

I use Caprock filters on my Leaf Aptus 75 when I encounter colour moiré.

I've found them to do a great job of eliminating colour moiré but you do lose some resolution but with extra shaping it would be very difficult to tell the difference.

Leaf do have moiré removing soft wear but it is extremely slow and if you have a large number of images then it is totaly impractical and financially time consuming.

The advantage with the Caprock filters as it doesn't cost you processing time and money.

Cheers

Simon

Author Topic: Moire issues (Read 7370 times)

yaya