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Author Topic: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems  (Read 105738 times)

Mark D Segal

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2008, 09:41:01 am »

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Shimming the screen is only effective if you have a grid focus screen installed, and you align your subject to the grid instead of the viewfinder edges. Even if the mask on the viewfinder prism was misaligned slightly, it's quite possible that the focus screen mount is not misaligned, and if so, installing a grid screen would provide one with an accurate level reference without shimming the screen at all. It's a cheap and easy fix to try, and much less hassle than returning multiple cameras.
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Jonathan, first, as I mentioned above, I don't appear to have this problem with my 1Ds3. Having said that, clearly there is an issue, but we don't know how widespread. I would also suggest there could be a number of explanations for it. Only Canon engineers would know for sure. So while your fix may work based on your hypothesis of the cause - and it is helpful that you are suggesting people with the problem should try these things to see whether they work - this could well be a quality control issue at the manufacturing plant in Japan. Canon clearly knows how to manufacture cameras to near-perfection, but it wouldn't be the first time that silly things slip through their procedures and end-up on the market. I really think the way forward on this issue is for people who have the problem to send Canon carefully prepared evidence allowing them to investigate the issue. They aren't always the most responsive corporate entity around unfortunately, but my sense is that on something as basic as this on a flagship product entering an intensively competitive environment they will respond, as they did on the 1D3 focusing issue. It may take some pressure, but in the final analysis the only correct solution is for Canon itself to repair or replace any defective units, and not leave it to user-concocted workarounds. That will not enhance their reputation as a world-class camera manufacturer.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Jonathan Wienke

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2008, 09:54:34 am »

I'm not saying that Canon should ignore this issue. If someone wants this issue corrected, Canon should do so under warranty. I just think that some of the reaction to it (it makes the camera completely useless, one should sell all their Canon gear and buy Nikon or Sony, etc) is hyperbolic BS. It's hardly in the same class of problem as the shutter failing,  or the camera locking up unexpectedly, etc. Let's keep a bit of perspective here. I'd gladly trade a slightly misaligned viewfinder for all of the other improvements a 1Ds-Mark III would offer compared to my 1Ds-Mark I.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2008, 10:02:46 am »

I agree.
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carl dw

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2008, 11:25:34 am »

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I'm not saying that Canon should ignore this issue. If someone wants this issue corrected, Canon should do so under warranty. I just think that some of the reaction to it (it makes the camera completely useless, one should sell all their Canon gear and buy Nikon or Sony, etc) is hyperbolic BS. It's hardly in the same class of problem as the shutter failing,  or the camera locking up unexpectedly, etc. Let's keep a bit of perspective here. I'd gladly trade a slightly misaligned viewfinder for all of the other improvements a 1Ds-Mark III would offer compared to my 1Ds-Mark I.
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Jonathan, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you are in the army.

Would you accept going into battle with a weapon that doesn't shoot where you've aimed it? .... I doubt it.

As a professional photographer, when I point a £6000 digital camera at a subject I expect to capture that subject in all it's glory - not slightly sloping with a bit missing off the corner - period.

As I mentioned before, I've personally tested and rejected FOUR of these cameras - and many more people are experiencing the same issue.  I'm now beginning to wonder if they all suffer from the same problem to a lesser or greater extent - sloppy construction.
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Misirlou

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2008, 11:45:17 am »

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A further test shows it to be the v/f, rather than the screen.

Test One: Centre horizontal line of the grid screen placed exactly along the matt / print border. The "slope" is clearly seen, even of the camera's display.

http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test1.jpg

Test Two: Just tilted the camera up so the same matt / print border was just above the bottom edge of the v/f. I didn't worry about getting square on for this one.

http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test2.jpg

Hardly super scientific but shows the problem.
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Wow. That is pretty extreme. About as misaligned as my old S50 point and shoot. I suspect there is something about these cameras that allows a critical component in the viewfinder optics to rotate when it shouldn't. I'd be surprised if Canon didn't offer some sort of fix pretty quickly. If I had one of these cameras, I'd use live view and a tripod for things that need critical framing, at least until Canon comes up with a solution.
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Mark D Segal

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2008, 11:53:57 am »

Carl, were the four cameras you rejected from the same batch - judging from the serial numbers?

I have just done a further test on mine, and I've come to realise this is not easy to do. Even (or perhaps especially) on a tripod, it's hard to get a perfect rectangular alignment of a perfectly rectangular subject. I had better luck last night hand-held. Anyhow, FWIW, last night's image showed no perceptible issue, hand-held aligning the image (of a painting on the wall) in the viewfinder. This morning's image on the tripod also aligned through the viewfinder showed a mis-alignment of 0.18 degrees CCW on two dimensions top and left vertical) and 0.41 degrees CCW on the two other dimensions (bottom and right vertical) - but measuring this also means placing the ruler very exactly where it should be left and right or top and bottom. I did this at 100% on edges that have decent contrast.  

I guess my position on this is that if Canon issues an advisory, I'd send them my camera for precise testing under laboratory conditions and adjustment as indicated. Meanwhile, I shall continue using it happily. I find that most of my shots involving straight horizontals and verticals often need some kind of perspective and de-skewing adjustment anyhow, so this is not a deal-breaker even if there were a slight mis-alignment of a component in the camera.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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djgarcia

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2008, 12:16:17 pm »

Yes Virginia, a picture is worth a gazillion words. The following image was nicely aligned in the viewfinder:

1Ds III Misalignment
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Mike Chini

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2008, 12:44:36 pm »

These pics all seem pretty extreme.  I'd return anything that's off this much immediately.
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carl dw

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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2008, 01:23:43 pm »

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Carl, were the four cameras you rejected from the same batch - judging from the serial numbers?

I have just done a further test on mine, and I've come to realise this is not easy to do. Even (or perhaps especially) on a tripod, it's hard to get a perfect rectangular alignment of a perfectly rectangular subject. I had better luck last night hand-held. Anyhow, FWIW, last night's image showed no perceptible issue, hand-held aligning the image (of a painting on the wall) in the viewfinder. This morning's image on the tripod also aligned through the viewfinder showed a mis-alignment of 0.18 degrees CCW on two dimensions top and left vertical) and 0.41 degrees CCW on the two other dimensions (bottom and right vertical) - but measuring this also means placing the ruler very exactly where it should be left and right or top and bottom. I did this at 100% on edges that have decent contrast. 

I guess my position on this is that if Canon issues an advisory, I'd send them my camera for precise testing under laboratory conditions and adjustment as indicated. Meanwhile, I shall continue using it happily. I find that most of my shots involving straight horizontals and verticals often need some kind of perspective and de-skewing adjustment anyhow, so this is not a deal-breaker even if there were a slight mis-alignment of a component in the camera.
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Hi Mark, The serials ranged from 606xxx to 609xxx.

It was very obvious just by putting the camera on a tripod, aligning a shelf along the top edge of the frame and taking a pic. We saw a 4mm from from left to right on the viewing screen.

I tested the first one in the studio securing it to a stand, leveling it looking down at the floor. Place four rules on the floor so they parallel but only just visible to the four sides of the viewfinder. In the resulting image you should just see a little more of the rules on all sides but nice and parallel to the frame. This required a 1 degree correction in photoshop to achieve with the dodgy camera.

If you want to see a one degree error, make a layer in photoshop and spin it just one degree - it really is a huge error .... despite what a number of people may be suggesting on this thread.

Have you seen [a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/cameras/canon_1ds3_tilt.html]http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article..._1ds3_tilt.html[/url]

I understand Canon are already doing the adjustment under warranty, but they are unlikely to admit to it wholesale as that would effect sales right now while they have a glut of orders.

1D Mk3 focus issue head in the sand denial all over again I'd wager.
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Mark D Segal

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2008, 02:22:13 pm »

The range of serial numbers is a bit concerning Carl. One wonders though why the problem varies so much between users. It does begin to sound as if Canon may be rushing them out the door before the competitors market their 20+MP offerings.

If they are already repairing them under warranty, it means they have recognized the problem. As it is appearing on at least four websites already (here, DPR, FM and Northlight) it would be difficult for them to sustain any insualrity. It looks as if the key decision facing them on this matter is whether to just keep repairing them quietly or to issue an advisory. If the noise gets loud AND widespread enough they may need to say something. But it is good to know they are fixing peoples' cameras. It would also be interesting to know exactly what the cause of the problem is.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Stephen Starkman

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Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2008, 02:34:08 pm »

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I have just done a further test on mine, and I've come to realise this is not easy to do.
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Yes, it is tricky!

I tested only to the point where the margin of error that *I* would introduce in real world shooting is the limiting factor. I don't expect any v/f optical system (with or without a grid screen) to result in perfectly aligned images - not on the 1Ds3, or any other 35mm format camera.

In the field, I would probably work faster than when I was testing - likely resulting in images that need some straightening (but it all depends on the image, right?!).

A .75 degree rotation error *built in* to a defective 1Ds3 would result in a higher number of images that require a corrective cropping and would compound any human error introduced when aligning. Not to mention it's just simply too great an error to be acceptable on an SLR.

I still believe that the relevance of this issue, if present, is best judged by the photographer him/herself and that generalized statements aren't really valid. This is an $8000 camera and most users are probably quite astute about their photographic needs.

S.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 02:36:05 pm by Stephen Starkman »
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carl dw

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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2008, 02:46:37 pm »

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The range of serial numbers is a bit concerning Carl. One wonders though why the problem varies so much between users. It does begin to sound as if Canon may be rushing them out the door before the competitors market their 20+MP offerings.

If they are already repairing them under warranty, it means they have recognized the problem. As it is appearing on at least four websites already (here, DPR, FM and Northlight) it would be difficult for them to sustain any insualrity. It looks as if the key decision facing them on this matter is whether to just keep repairing them quietly or to issue an advisory. If the noise gets loud AND widespread enough they may need to say something. But it is good to know they are fixing peoples' cameras. It would also be interesting to know exactly what the cause of the problem is.
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I still can't figure exactly what the problem is. If the camera has room for adjustment in either the viewing screen mask or the position of the sensor I would of expected a test to confirm they are adjusted correctly before the bodies leave the factory.

I think I'm right in surmising that a slight mis-alignment of the mirror along it's diagonal would also cause a rotation of the image.

I guess if they are fixing it .... they can tell us! - Apparently I'll get a call from Canon UK tomorrow so I'll ask the obvious.

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not here to knock Canon, I've invested alot of hard earned cash and I'm surprised to come across such a dumb fault at this stage in a products production. It would also be nice to be treated as a valued customer with some good old up-front honesty for a change.
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carl dw

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« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2008, 02:51:19 pm »

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Yes, it is tricky!

I tested only to the point where the margin of error that *I* would introduce in real world shooting is the limiting factor. I don't expect any v/f optical system (with or without a grid screen) to result in perfectly aligned images - not on the 1Ds3, or any other 35mm format camera.

In the field, I would probably work faster than when I was testing - likely resulting in images that need some straightening (but it all depends on the image, right?!).

A .75 degree rotation error *built in* to a defective 1Ds3 would result in a higher number of images that require a corrective cropping and would compound any human error introduced when aligning. Not to mention it's just simply too great an error to be acceptable on an SLR.

I still believe that the relevance of this issue, if present, is best judged by the photographer him/herself and that generalized statements aren't really valid. This is an $8000 camera and most users are probably quite astute about their photographic needs.

S.
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If you can't see it - you don't have the problem.

It is an obvious error - we are not talking about splitting hairs! (I wish we were)
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jjj

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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2008, 03:21:18 pm »

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Yes, like "the hood ornament on my Mercedes appears to be misaligned clockwise by 0.75 degrees, so I'm going to return the car and walk 20 miles to work..."

For a 0.75-degree misalignment, re-seating the grid screen in its' socket will probably fix the "problem". And I'm still skeptical than anyone can realistically "eyeball" level to that degree of precision, even with a grid screen.
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A misaligned hood ornament will not affect the use of the car in any way. Incorrect viewfinders directly affect the use of a camera. And that's why people are returning the wonky items.
I rarely have to straighten horizons and I don't use tripods or grid screens either and if I do, I'd say 0.75 of a degree is surpringly significant rotate. But then when I go into people's houses all the pictures usually look wonky to me, because they are normally a little out. Some of us notice these things, some don't.
And as mentioned above, if you aren't that accurate then the misaligment may make one is less accurate to the point of wasting time in PS correcting lots of images.

Just because you think it's not a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Besides for a very, very expensive camera like the 1DsIII, suggesting one bodges the screen seating or uses sticky tape to make up for a manufacturing defect are really stupid and naive suggestions.

The fact that numerous websites are reporting issues, the fact that when talking about the new Canon + Nikon in my local shop, the first thing mentioned was that all their Canons had a problem and there was even a chap in the shop who'd returned one because it had a problem, tends to indicate that they may actually be.....a problem.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 03:41:25 pm by jjj »
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pfigen

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« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2008, 01:39:13 am »

Anyone who thinks this might be a trivial problem has never worked with super demanding anal art directors who really can see the difference. Anything, and I mean, anything that slows you down or forces you to recompose your image to compensate for a viewfinder/final image misalignment is completely unacceptable. Having even the slightest misalignment would drive me completely nuts. I don't want to have to guess as what my actual framing might be, especially when shooting on location, where you often don't have the luxury of either shooting tethered or using Live View. I still want a 100 percent accurate viewfinder. For the record, my 1DsMKII is extremely accurate and even with the standard focusing screen, horizons and other straight lines are right on.

It's interesting that Samy's seems to be having trouble getting cameras right now. I wonder if this issue is being addressed at the factory and might account for a supply shortage.
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carl dw

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« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2008, 04:47:21 am »

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Anyone who thinks this might be a trivial problem has never worked with super demanding anal art directors who really can see the difference. Anything, and I mean, anything that slows you down or forces you to recompose your image to compensate for a viewfinder/final image misalignment is completely unacceptable. Having even the slightest misalignment would drive me completely nuts. I don't want to have to guess as what my actual framing might be, especially when shooting on location, where you often don't have the luxury of either shooting tethered or using Live View. I still want a 100 percent accurate viewfinder. For the record, my 1DsMKII is extremely accurate and even with the standard focusing screen, horizons and other straight lines are right on.

It's interesting that Samy's seems to be having trouble getting cameras right now. I wonder if this issue is being addressed at the factory and might account for a supply shortage.
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You put that very succinctly.

Have to say, my 1DsMKII is also extremely accurate - I repeated the test I applied to the dodgy MkIII just to clarify.... technological regress is difficult to accept!
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phila

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« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2008, 01:13:00 am »

Just collected my MkIII from Canon service (less than 24 hours turnaround, handy they are only 15 minutes away) after a prism assembly realignment and all is now as it should be.

djgarcia

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« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2008, 01:27:37 am »

Good to hear! Mine's all packed up and ready to get fixed after contacting Canon Service today. let's see how quick my turnaround is in the Jersey facility.
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jjj

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« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2008, 06:11:49 am »

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Good to hear! Mine's all packed up and ready to get fixed after contacting Canon Service today. let's see how quick my turnaround is in the Jersey facility.
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I hope it's better than the UK. The professional servce is anything but.
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carl dw

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« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2008, 11:24:08 am »

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Just collected my MkIII from Canon service (less than 24 hours turnaround, handy they are only 15 minutes away) after a prism assembly realignment and all is now as it should be.
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Nice move! ... "prism assembly realignment"... sounds like a relatively easy fix to the uninitiated (me) , I can almost feel the Canon technicians taking a deep breath prior to the arrival of hundreds of sold and unsold cameras....

I had a call from Canon UK who are not aware of a widespread problem other than one compliant (which is interesting as I've returned four myself!) Shame there is no communication between divisions on both sides of the pond... no information is good information from their perspective I suppose!

Glad you got your problem sorted. Well done Canon.
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