Mamiya 645AFD-II and PhaseOne P45 Back

[DolphinDan]

I recently got a Mamiya M645 AFD-II camera and am looking at digital backs for it, specifically the PhaseOne P25+ and P45+ backs.  My concern is that the P45+ back outresolves the Mamiya lenses.  For example, with my Nikon D200 I notice a big difference in image quality when using professional/film lenses (17-35mm or 28-70mm) versus DX (18-200mm) lenses.  The DX lenses produce images that look washed out and not as contrasty as the images taken with the professional/film lenses.  I have read on the internet that MF lenses can only resolve about 22MP.  I looked at the CAPTURE INTEGRATION website comparison between the P25 and P45 using a Hasselblad 501CM, and observed that the P45 image (39MP) looked a little washed out compared to the P25 image (22MP).  Here is the link:

http://www.captureintegration.com/comparis...P45-vs-P25.html

Has anyone done any comparison tests with the P25+ and P45+ backs on a Mamiya M645 AFD-II camera, or with 22MP versus 39MP backs?  If so, what is your experience?  Also, does anybody have any experience with using a P45+ versus a P25+ back with the new Mamiya 28mm and 75-150mm lenses?

[godtfred]

I have read on the internet that MF lenses can only resolve about 22MP. 
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I have no idea how much the mamiya lenses resolve, but my HC lenses are stellar and resolve a lot more than 22MP (there is significant difference in sharpness on a 39MP image compared to a 22MP image using these lenses...) On my Digitars (schneider "MF lenses" for large format) I notice even higher resolution.

observed that the P45 image (39MP) looked a little washed out compared to the P25 image (22MP). 
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Check out the moaire/color errors in the fine mesh of the images before you decide... The P45 image has a nice rendering, the P25 image has some trouble in this area. If you shoot fabrics and other objects with fine patterns you'll be better off with a P45.

-axel

[amsp]

It should be added that the P1 anti-moire plugin removes 99% of all moire with the P25 extremely well.

[vgogolak]

I know it will annoy many Mamiya fans, but it is why many of us back, still , a Hasselblad (V) or Contax 645 platform; the glass.

Victor

[jonstewart]

I know it will annoy many Mamiya fans, but it is why many of us back, still , a Hasselblad (V) or Contax 645 platform; the glass.

Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe, in the past,  when you were a youngster it was true, but I spent a long time and didn't buy into either, because one is discontinued, and the other, the glass is now made by Fuji, and others (my better and elders), some of whom used Hasselblad for a very long time said (1) it wasn't as good, for the money required to buy it, and (2) the Mamiya lenses are not significantly worse, at a fraction of the price (bar the 28mm)

Your assertions don't annoy me in the slightest!

You buy the tools that suit you best and perform up to your expectations. I haven't been at all disappointed with the Mamiya! (...though no doubt you would be, not having the name Hasselblad or Contax on it    )

[david o]

Yesterday as I was cleaning some folders I send to the trash a PDF where the Mam lens were compared to the "I don't remember" lens... thought I wouldn't need it... and I can't find it anymore on google...
But the Mam were really good and sometime better... I know it doesn't help that much but this PDF exist somewhere...

[jpjespersen]

Its on the mamiya website under lenses.  My mamiya lenses resolve extremely well with my p45+
I have a schneider digitar 120mm macro on 4x5 camera looks as sharp as the mamiya 120mm macro.

Yesterday as I was cleaning some folders I send to the trash a PDF where the Mam lens were compared to the "I don't remember" lens... thought I wouldn't need it... and I can't find it anymore on google...
But the Mam were really good and sometime better... I know it doesn't help that much but this PDF exist somewhere...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[JDG]

Just to get off of the "Mamiya Vs. Fujinon/Zeiss" discussion for a bit, and back to the real question at hand: "can the mamiya lenses resolve at 39mp?"

The answer is YES.  Are they better or worse than Zeiss and Fuji? Depends on who you ask, but they do have resolving power that is in line with 6.8micron pixels (and probably better than that still) of the 39mp sensors.

[Leonardo Barreto]

I had chance to have in my hands an AFD with the new Mamiya 28mm and I am sure there is nothing like that lens in MF reflex, there it was, a 17mm equivalent in MF with no visible barrel distortion. I don't think we will ever see something like that on the new Sinar/Rollei/Leaf system, and the only other one available manufactured by Fujifilm, I have not seen, but seams to be not as good as this one.

The only complain I have with my Mamiya lenses is that the 80mm has some barrel distortion and in general, the system would be perfect with some old "leaf" shutter alternatives for the fashion photographers that need to use flash outdoors.. and probably faster AF.

I know it will annoy many Mamiya fans, but it is why many of us back, still , a Hasselblad (V) or Contax 645 platform; the glass.

Victor
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[david o]

got it

[amsp]

I have to agree that the Mamiya lenses are amazing, no complaints what so ever, and cheap as hell compared to H equivalents. I also have to agree that the faster flash sync is all I miss (why can't they just make new leaf shutter lenses?), other than that the AFD is a true workhorse.

[Lester]

I guess I have to jump into this, I too use the cheap Mamiya 645 AFD with a P45 back. I have no problem with any of the Mamiya lenses. In fact I so cheap, I used their manual lenses on the AFD, since I shoot mostly landscape and things that don't run or walk. (If they do, I used the 1Ds MkII) I been a Hass user for over 30+ years, I got both their 500 series and their F series. Since I have so much Hass lenses, I got a adapter for the the Hass to used with my Mamiya. I don't see much difference, so I stay with the Mamiya lenses.

I thiink Mamiya makes 2 manul shutter lenses, 80 mm and 150 mm that wiill go up to 1/500 sec. for flash. I think I got the 150 mm. Damn lenses are so cheap, I went hog-wild. Yep! I still have those Hass lenses.

[amsp]

I thiink Mamiya makes 2 manul shutter lenses, 80 mm and 150 mm that wiill go up to 1/500 sec. for flash. I think I got the 150 mm. Damn lenses are so cheap, I went hog-wild. Yep! I still have those Hass lenses.
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Unfortunately you can only use them with mirror up, and you have to manually cock the shutter. This at least for me renders them useless for outdoor fashion. I really hope mamiya are working on either AF leaf shutter lenses or a new body with faster sync.

[DolphinDan]

Thank you all for answering my questions.  I now feel good about getting a P45 back for my camera.  Thank you David Olivier for the PDF on Mamiya versus Contax lenses.

Namaste
Daniel

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

I agree. I'm lucky enough to have both the 28mm and 75-150 mm. They do full justice to the P45+.

As for Mamiya vs Hassy, see the shootout on this site. Personally, I can't see the point of any "competition" - the results are so close as to be inconsequential. If my photos were as good as my equipment, THEN I'd be impressed!

Bill

I guess I have to jump into this, I too use the cheap Mamiya 645 AFD with a P45 back. I have no problem with any of the Mamiya lenses. In fact I so cheap, I used their manual lenses on the AFD, since I shoot mostly landscape and things that don't run or walk. (If they do, I used the 1Ds MkII) I been a Hass user for over 30+ years, I got both their 500 series and their F series. Since I have so much Hass lenses, I got a adapter for the the Hass to used with my Mamiya. I don't see much difference, so I stay with the Mamiya lenses.

I thiink Mamiya makes 2 manul shutter lenses, 80 mm and 150 mm that wiill go up to 1/500 sec. for flash. I think I got the 150 mm. Damn lenses are so cheap, I went hog-wild. Yep! I still have those Hass lenses.
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[mcfoto]

Hi
When it comes to Mamiya glass, for there size, weight, cost they are excellent. I used to own a 500cm before I changed over to the Mamiya  AF. I have never missed the Hasselblad. I also compared the H series 120 to the Mamiya 120 & in the end I felt the Mamiya had better tonality. Believe me they were very close. When it comes to the new 28mm lens I know one very prominent landscape photographer who owns a P45+, AFDII, 28, 75-150 etc. He loves it. For Phase One owners & you need a 28mm, Mamiya is the only way to go.

Thanks Denis

[vgogolak]

got it
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can remember Fischer electronics touting .000001% harmonic distortion for a $200 amplifier, and people saying "oh those crazy audiophiles paying $2000 for an Audio Reserach amplifier - it only has .1% HD...

You can quote all the stats you want.

put a Zeiss lens and a Mamiya lens with respective cameras on a counter and say "you can have either one for free...

:-) quess what would happen

same with Patek Phillip and Rolex
Mercedes and Cadilac
etc etc
in the long run, esp after 150 years, people are not quite as stupid as we think..
there is a reason certain things cost more, and arguing it is just 'label lust' is jsut silly...
and as my sage grandmother said, "buy the best, in the long run it is the cheapest, but in the short run, well, you will have the best!

[david o]

I can remember Fischer electronics touting .000001% harmonic distortion for a $200 amplifier, and people saying "oh those crazy audiophiles paying $2000 for an Audio Reserach amplifier - it only has .1% HD...

You can quote all the stats you want.

put a Zeiss lens and a Mamiya lens with respective cameras on a counter and say "you can have either one for free...

:-) quess what would happen

same with Patek Phillip and Rolex
Mercedes and Cadilac
etc etc
in the long run, esp after 150 years, people are not quite as stupid as we think..
there is a reason certain things cost more, and arguing it is just 'label lust' is jsut silly...
and as my sage grandmother said, "buy the best, in the long run it is the cheapest, but in the short run, well, you will have the best!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

from my two words you end up with such analyze...
I don't think that I stated anything. Somebody ask something I gave him some paper sheet for him to build his mind.
The sheet talks about Resolution not feeling... Ok. Like vinyl and CD. Or like digital and film...
Did I say going with Zeiss is silly or something close to that...
No! so don't come to me that way.  

[amsp]

LOL, you sound like some Zeiss evangelist. Maybe you spent a ton of money on hasselblad and now you really need to justify it to your self  I've had both hasselblad (555ELD) and mamiya, but I kept the mamiya. I like you're analogy to watches, because just like patek puts generic cheap quartz movements in many of their womens watches but still charge "patek prices" for them, hasselblad now uses fuji lenses but still charges "hasselblad prices".. hehe

Seriously though, just enjoy whatever brand you like without knocking another when you haven't compared the two.

I can remember Fischer electronics touting .000001% harmonic distortion for a $200 amplifier, and people saying "oh those crazy audiophiles paying $2000 for an Audio Reserach amplifier - it only has .1% HD...

You can quote all the stats you want.

put a Zeiss lens and a Mamiya lens with respective cameras on a counter and say "you can have either one for free...

:-) quess what would happen

same with Patek Phillip and Rolex
Mercedes and Cadilac
etc etc
in the long run, esp after 150 years, people are not quite as stupid as we think..
there is a reason certain things cost more, and arguing it is just 'label lust' is jsut silly...
and as my sage grandmother said, "buy the best, in the long run it is the cheapest, but in the short run, well, you will have the best!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 

[Dustbak]

I used both the 500 as well as the H. I found the H lenses (the ones I used sofar) sharper and showing more resolution than my 500 lenses maybe with the exception of the 100/3.5 (Have never used the 40IF).

I have seen the test results of the Mamiya lenses against the Hassie Zeiss lenses as well. One thing that I noticed was that the Zeiss were performing a lot better in the center than the Mamiya lenses, according to the numbers in the test. Now with the smaller sensors (currently 48x36) we are using more of the center than the corners.

Anyway compared to some of my ZF lenses the H, CF, Mamiya lenses are not in the same league concerning sharpness, resolution, OOF & color rendition. (if only their image circle was much larger)

I believe that most lenses serve their purpose and outperform most photographers